Brian Orakpo: Current most over hyped Redskin? Or as good as advertised?

[SkinsTillIDie]

Of course I hope Brandon Jenkins can develop into an effective pass rusher, ideally a dynamic weapon, but it's discouraging that he couldn't even contribute on an atrocious special teams unit to warrant being active week-to-week. 1 assisted tackle on the whole year? Really?

 

A couple Bruce Allen quotes that I hope don't pertain to Brandon Jenkins:
 

“We are going to redefine some of the characteristics that we’re looking for in players" and yesterday, “What I was saying was we are going to find mentally tough players. We want to find people who love playing the game of football.”

 

And as Rich Tandler commentates: "Virtually every player who puts on a uniform is capable of covering kicks and blocking on returns. What separates the ones who can’t—and many on the 2013 Redskins couldn’t—from those who can is often what’s inside the player’s helmet."

 

Jenkins has a lot to learn, a lot of strength to add. He might be a multi-year development prospect, which I'd be fine with if he's a consistently positive contributor on special teams next year. Maybe he becomes a Chris Clemons type, and hopefully we don't cast him aside before he blossoms... Though Clemons didn't really find that dynamic consistency until 29.

 

.. But given that this is an Orakpo thread, any presumption that Jenkins can replace Orakpo any time soon is a complete fantasy and pipedream, all the more so given that it's based almost entirely on the potential Jenkins flashed 3 and 4 seasons ago. I mean, Orakpo has 3 times as many pro bowls as Jenkins has NFL tackles and there's only 3 and a half years separating them.

[98ORAKPO98]

http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/jay-gruden-wants-brian-orakpo-back-too

 

New head coach Jay Gruden is also on that list. Gruden, in fact, called Orakpo the Redskins’ No. 1 priority this offseason.

“As a free agent, he’s the top priority for us,” Gruden told reporters at the NFL’s annual scouting combine in Indianapolis. “We’d love to get Brian back.”

 

[MartinC]

Rak is worth $6 maybe $7 mil a year, problem is he may be the one with the leverage if we cant find someone in free agency who gets 12 sacks + a year.

 

Orakpo is worth what someone is willing to pay him. 10+ sack OLB/DEs in their prime get paid more than $7M a year and Orakpo will get more than that here or somewhere else.

[martytheman]

I wonder how feasable a sign and trade deal would be if they can't come to some kind of long term agreement with rak.

I can't imagine he'd be happy about getting franchised if it came down to it.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I wonder how feasable a sign and trade deal would be if they can't come to some kind of long term agreement with rak.

I can't imagine he'd be happy about getting franchised if it came down to it.

Now that would be a great solution to get a first day pick.

Hail,

[Laron Burgundy]

I don't know why there is such disdain for franchising him. That tag allows you to not spend copious amounts of future money. So what if it's an 11 mil figure next year? Better that than to be locked in for 4-5 years at 8 mil per if the player continues to struggle with injuries and consistency. That extra 3 mil might save you 24 mil in future cap space.

[Est.1974]

I've been trying to find the link but can't....thought I'd read somewhere that if Orakpo was tagged he could contest the LB designation based on snaps played as a pass rushing DE, the tag for DE being nearer $13m..

 

anyone else seen this ?

[Bonez3]

I don't know why there is such disdain for franchising him. That tag allows you to not spend copious amounts of future money. So what if it's an 11 mil figure next year? Better that than to be locked in for 4-5 years at 8 mil per if the player continues to struggle with injuries and consistency. That extra 3 mil might save you 24 mil in future cap space.

He lines up at OLB. I don't disagree with tag in that we have space. Especially with new cap #. However, if he 'shows you' you're not saving 24 mil, may actually cost 40 mil or more

[JSSkinz]

Orakpo is worth what someone is willing to pay him. 10+ sack OLB/DEs in their prime get paid more than $7M a year and Orakpo will get more than that here or somewhere else.

 

Better go check the facts, there is only 5 OLB's (3-4 D) whose cap hit is 10 million or greater next year and none of them will make 10 million in base, Orakpo is not on the level of these players but probably a notch below.

 

http://overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=34OLB

 

If Orakpo were a top level pass rusher he would have been signed by now, the reason he isn't signed is because he's a tweener.  If we sign him to more than 6 mil a year its a gamble based on his inconsistent play and injury history.

[skinny21]

Better go check the facts, there is only 5 OLB's (3-4 D) whose cap hit is 10 million or greater next year and none of them will make 10 million in base, Orakpo is not on the level of these players but probably a notch below.

http://overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=34OLB

If Orakpo were a top level pass rusher he would have been signed by now, the reason he isn't signed is because he's a tweener. If we sign him to more than 6 mil a year its a gamble based on his inconsistent play and injury history.

Availability is a concern to be sure, but I'm not sure I can agree that Orakpo's value is 2/3 the value of a top 5 OLB. I'd say (and I feel I'm being very conservative) 85% of the value of a top 5 would be more accurate - which would equate to 8.5m/yr.

I'm disappointed that many seem to share the view that Orakpo is so far off from the top tier of OLBs - it seems such a disservice to a guy that has both played very well for us and been a great team member in his time here.

With that all said, I fully appreciate the reluctance to sign Orakpo for 10 or more million - we do have quite a few holes to fill. One can also argue he doesn't warrant being paid as an elite player.

Personally, I'd take my chances as it would be one more hole to fill if he left, I think he's an outstanding person/player, I'm not sure we've seen the best of him, and it would be good for the team psyche. But I understand those who disagree, though less so do I understand those who relegate him to being anything less than he is - a very good player on a team starved for very good players... on defense anyway.

[markmills67]

Availability is a concern to be sure, but I'm not sure I can agree that Orakpo's value is 2/3 the value of a top 5 OLB. I'd say (and I feel I'm being very conservative) 85% of the value of a top 5 would be more accurate - which would equate to 8.5m/yr.

I'm disappointed that many seem to share the view that Orakpo is so far off from the top tier of OLBs - it seems such a disservice to a guy that has both played very well for us and been a great team member in his time here.

With that all said, I fully appreciate the reluctance to sign Orakpo for 10 or more million - we do have quite a few holes to fill. One can also argue he doesn't warrant being paid as an elite player.

Personally, I'd take my chances as it would be one more hole to fill if he left, I think he's an outstanding person/player, I'm not sure we've seen the best of him, and it would be good for the team psyche. But I understand those who disagree, though less so do I understand those who relegate him to being anything less than he is - a very good player on a team starved for very good players... on defense anyway.

Your last sentence is what I have been saying all along, Orakpo could be a great signing but only at a maximum of $8m a year, to many holes on D to give him elite money.

[KingGibbs]

If he re-signs here great. If not? No big deal to me.

[MartinC]

Better go check the facts, there is only 5 OLB's (3-4 D) whose cap hit is 10 million or greater next year and none of them will make 10 million in base, Orakpo is not on the level of these players but probably a notch below.

 

http://overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=34OLB

 

If Orakpo were a top level pass rusher he would have been signed by now, the reason he isn't signed is because he's a tweener.  If we sign him to more than 6 mil a year its a gamble based on his inconsistent play and injury history.

 

 

Well you have to factor 4-3 DEs into that as well - and its the average per year including signing bonus not just base salary which matters. You also have to look at the amount of guaranteed money in these deals - and the age of the player. There is a reason the franchise tag for Orakpo would be close to $11M.

 

I posted way back in the thread about the small number of pass rushers though who are making $10M or more on average a year so I get your point.  I have also said a few times that my personal view is that $10M a year is too much for Orakpo - but I repeat he will get more than $7M a year somewhere.

[RandyHolt]

I keep reminding myself that the salary cap is a bit of a joke for cash laden teams.

 

While I like Jackson more than most, and am quick to point out he was our starting ROLB in our only recent playoff run, I do not want the decision to be made on Rak over a squabble of 1-2M dollars. One restructured contract here and there, and any concerns about him being overpaid or handcuffing other moves can easily be circumvented.

 

Heck, he is likely the one to be restructured to allow others to be signed a few years from now.

[NIKKI8]

I keep reminding myself that the salary cap is a bit of a joke for cash laden teams.

 

While I like Jackson more than most, and am quick to point out he was our starting ROLB in our only recent playoff run, I do not want the decision to be made on Rak over a squabble of 1-2M dollars. One restructured contract here and there, and any concerns about him being overpaid or handcuffing other moves can easily be circumvented.

 

Heck, he is likely the one to be restructured to allow others to be signed a few years from now.

I agree and the Redskins do have two salary cap wizards in there front office in Allen and Schaffer so I have faith that the contract signed will be as team friendly as possible. If they found out this weekend that he is going to be asking for an unreasonable amount I would tag him and try to get whatever draft pick I could get for him and sign Anthony Spencer to a cheap one year "prove your healthy" deal and also resign Rob Jackson.

[rskin72]

Personally, I think Rak is worth the $$$.  I just do not see how we can complain about the state of the D....but yet not re-sign our own impact players.  And, who would replace his production? 

 

Heck, Haz has said he will finally unleash Rak and Kerrigan.....and maybe Mike held down Rak as much as he did Haz!!! 

 

I did some research in another forum concerning his production vs other 3-4 OLB's.....and his overall numbers including tackles, assists, sacks, fumble recoveries, etc.etc.etc.... he compared favorably with some of the highest paid OLB's in the game.   And, also consider that he rushes vs the left tackle of the other team....and that is normally the stud on the offensive line.  I also do not get the lack of impact play comments.....as each of the sacks, fumble recoveries, etc....are by proxy impact plays. 

 

I considered a 8 - 9 mil contract fair....but we may have to go a little above that to get Rak.  He is our player, a drafted Redskin, still young and just coming into his prime.  All we would have if he leaves is yet another hole to fill......with either a draft pick unknown....or we pay another FA to come in and roll the dice there. 

[KDawg]

So, as has been well documented, I'm a huge Orakpo fan. I think he is the best player on the defense with his improvement in the run game (that could be subject to a pretty good competition with Kerrigan provided they are both healthy. I think people tend to forget how good Kerrigan is when he's not hobbled.)

 

I want Orakpo back on the roster.

 

But, and this is my opinion...

 

We have a lot of holes. If Orakpo wants a multi-year deal worth 10+M/year the team is probably best in parting with him. Not because of a lack of ability, or not liking him, or him not being good enough, but more so because of the amount of impact players that will have expiring contracts in the coming years and our necessity in re-signing them.

 

Trent Williams, Griffin, Kerrigan, Morris are three that spring to mind. In signing Rak to a large deal, we're all but guaranteeing Kerrigan gets a similar deal (maybe more, maybe less, but probably in the same basic range). No team has the money to tie up that much coin in just their OLBs, and that's before considering the other free agents that we may want to re-up.

 

Now, Orakpo could do himself a huge favor and sign a multi year deal where the money drops in time to re-sign those guys, but is high enough in the short term to front load the deal and allow for restructuring on the back end. I'm not great with the salary cap stuff, but I don't see why this isn't an option, given how much cap room we really have this year.

 

But it's all going to come down to dollars and how the contract is structured vs. how much market value Rak has.

 

In my opinion it shouldn't be a conversation about if Orakpo is a great player... Rak is a great football player and anyone who doubts that really needs to go check out more of the film. But, the question should be whether signing him would hinder the team in the long term or if the contract can be worked out so that everyone is happy. If the contract can be worked in such a way that the team and Rak both get what they deserve, then it's a TOTAL no-brainer. If it can't, then it's also a no brainer.

[pjfootballer]

The salary cap keeps increasing. Makes it easier to re-sign Rak closer to that 10 million threshold if we want to. That's up to the front office.

[Lavarleap56]

So, as has been well documented, I'm a huge Orakpo fan. I think he is the best player on the defense with his improvement in the run game (that could be subject to a pretty good competition with Kerrigan provided they are both healthy. I think people tend to forget how good Kerrigan is when he's not hobbled.)

 

I want Orakpo back on the roster.

 

But, and this is my opinion...

 

We have a lot of holes. If Orakpo wants a multi-year deal worth 10+M/year the team is probably best in parting with him. Not because of a lack of ability, or not liking him, or him not being good enough, but more so because of the amount of impact players that will have expiring contracts in the coming years and our necessity in re-signing them.

 

 

I agree and made some of the same points before. Kerrigan has similar numbers and more "impact" plays like interceptions and fumbles so he would have a strong case to base his contract off of what Orakpo receives.A huge deal for Rak would make it tough to keep Kerrigan imo, not to mention deals coming up for Trent and Robert. The rumor is Rak's looking for something around $30 million guaranteed & 6/70. That's crazy to me but to each is own.

 

Where I disagree is calling Orakpo "Great'. I think he's good with potential to be great, but hasn't maximized his skill set for whatever reason. I want Rak back but at the right deal for the team and his ability.

The salary cap keeps increasing. Makes it easier to re-sign Rak closer to that 10 million threshold if we want to. That's up to the front office.

 

Not how it works.. Can't just throw money at the problem because the cap is increasing, All you end up doing is driving up the price on future deals. Pay the guy what you perceive his value to be regardless of what the cap number is.

[KDawg]

 

 

Where I disagree is calling Orakpo "Great'. I think he's good with potential to be great, but hasn't maximized his skill set for whatever reason. I want Rak back but at the right deal for the team and his ability.

 

 

Semantics debate when debating the word great vs. very good, extremely good, good, ect.

 

Perhaps the better way to word it is that it is clear he's among the better players of his position and he has tremendous value to the football team if he's affordable. What affordable is? I don't know. The team does, though, and if he's not re-upped I have to assume he wasn't affordable, and therefore, I can't be upset with the decision.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

See Coach, when you get down to the brass tacks, we've never been far apart on Brian and are pretty much on the same page. (Except the 'great player' thang. But we won't rehash all that.).

We both want what's best for the team and would both happily have him back.

But at the right cost for our team. What Ll has just mooted as the rumoured cost is suicidle IMHO.

Hail.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

 

Trent Williams, Griffin, Kerrigan, Morris are three that spring to mind. In signing Rak to a large deal, we're all but guaranteeing Kerrigan gets a similar deal (maybe more, maybe less, but probably in the same basic range). No team has the money to tie up that much coin in just their OLBs, and that's before considering the other free agents that we may want to re-up.

 

A possible way to make that more affordable is to use more draft picks on the d-line.  Thus ensuring that while we're paying for Orakpo/Kerrigan, we'll have D-lineman on cheap rookie contracts.  By the time those rookie's will need new contracts of their own, Orakpo will be in his 30's and will cost less.

 

This seems to be what the Giants have been doing recently.  Paying more for pass rushers (Kiwi, JPP, Tuck, Osi) while drafting a DT in the 2nd round of 3 of the last 4 drafts.  They also let Barry Cofield walk, and released Chris Canty when they started getting too expensive.

[bedlamVR]

Crazyness, the things i have been hearing today ... some of it does not add up ...

 

What people have been saying is the team will let him hit the market ... okay...but that means he is gone because really he is the best OLB on the market and he is easily going to get his 60 million over 7 years most likley from the Eagles ... but i guess we will get to see him twice a year.....

 

But then there is the LL tweet about Micheal Johnson, 1 - He is a cog in a fantastic defense ... 98 not so much, he came out the same year as Orakpo but other than interceptions .... averages what 5.2 sacks per season, and that is only because he had a monster year in 2012 where he had 11.5 sacks take that out and he has less than 4 sacks per season - and he was tagged last season might be tagged again and realistically you could be looking at paying him 10 mil a season to be out Brian Orakpo replacement ... i cannot even contemplate that idea... you are willing to pay a FA 10 mill a year a guy who has been so so as a pro, the coaching staff has some limited knowledge of but you are not going to even pay 0.9 mil to tag Rak or meet his demands which by comparison dont sound too crazy ...

 

And people are worried that paying Rak will mean it will set the market for Kerrigan ... well will not bringing in a FA also do that, or wont the market itself do that ? And isn't Kerrigan on a 5 year deal, so he will hit the market two years from now ...so are we saying there will be no way for us to structure contracts around that ? Williams will want to be paid regardless - and next season he will be on the is he worth it hit list ... then RGIII but none of those are issues right now ...

 

Thats the FA route, anyone we get to replace Rak who is at a similar level is going to be older, injury prone or more expensive, or all three .... The other option is to not replace him, maybe move 91 to his pass rush slot ... something they didn't want to do in 2012 season when Kerrigan had a down season (all but disappeared) and make a hole on the other side ...one we will need to fill so we look to the draft and to get an impact rookie look for a 2nd or 3rd round pick so while we could potentially get a Ha Ha Clinton-Dix or Benjamin to reach for a OLB great idea ... we have a bunch of holes so lets make some more ...

 

Also I know the FO is eager to tell everyone we are not a player away from competing but equally we are not 2 or 3 guys away so should we even be considering splashing the FA cash - what is the point in bringing anyone in if we are years away from even being competative ... the three slots you want to fill up when building a team are QB LT and Pass rusher and once you have those you build around it ... but we want to keep looking for Ms right ...,. instead of complementing the few play makers we do have we seemingly want to let them walk because ... ah well he only averages 10 sacks a season, only been to the pro bowl 3 times out of 4 (healthy seasons) I mean they are 10 a penny ... crazy

[markmills67]

If we give Orakpo that monster contract then we can forget about having a great D, haven't Dallas been giving Ware massive money and they still are **** on D, we need to spread the wealth not only on D but on O, can we not pay Orakpo more guaranteed money via bonus say $40m over 5 years with $25m bonus?

[Thekyle1591]

If we give Orakpo that monster contract then we can forget about having a great D, haven't Dallas been giving Ware massive money and they still are **** on D, we need to spread the wealth not only on D but on O, can we not pay Orakpo more guaranteed money via bonus say $40m over 5 years with $25m bonus?

If you want a good defense, you don't let impact players walk unless you have a capable backup. I don't see Jackson being a player who will put up more than 5-6 sacks a season, and while he is good at other things, rushing the passer is most important for our 3-4 OLBs. I don't know how you can justify letting him walk and then going out and signing a Jarius Byrd type player or (god forbid) an Alex Mack.