No Excuses Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, twa said: Could you refer me to a study focused on trained and vetted school staff? not one simply on a guns presence, which I agree adds risk(especially if the only one present is held by someone wanting to kill folk) I would prefer no guns or armed police response or shooters, but that seems unworkable. The narrative that banning AK's will address these shootings is dangerous. School funding for education is already a ****ing **** show in this country, but people like you would rather fund guns for schools rather than letting schools fulfill their purpose. All because of a sociopathic love for guns. You are a ****ing nut job just like everyone else who wants to turn schools into a god damn battlefield of crazy shooters and educators armed with rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, twa said: Could you refer me to a study focused on trained and vetted school staff? not one simply on a guns presence, which I agree adds risk(especially if the only one present is held by someone wanting to kill folk) I would prefer no guns or armed police response or shooters, but that seems unworkable. The narrative that banning AK's will address these shootings is dangerous. I am not certain I can find a study that "focuses on trained and vetted school staff", I am not sure one has been done. There are, however, countless studies on what happens when guns themselves are on school property and the unfortunate results. Because of the specific qualifier you are adding I'm going to pass on this one. To your second point "The narrative that banning AK's will address these shootings is dangerous." It's not dangerous in the slightest. I have not heard a single person say that banning AK's will "address" or solve the shootings, But putting into place policies that individually may not make a large dent, but collectively work to address the problem is not dangerous at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Literally everything about the conservative vision for America is a hellscape of unabashed racism, misogyny and psychopaths armed to the teeth. Kids dying in classrooms: thoughts and prayers. Gotta bake a rainbow cake for a gay wedding: MARCHIG TO DEFEND MY RIGHTS. **** that ****. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 **** it, indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) Just now, daveakl said: I am not certain I can find a study that "focuses on trained and vetted school staff", I am not sure one has been done. There are, however, countless studies on what happens when guns themselves are on school property and the unfortunate results. Because of the specific qualifier you are adding I'm going to pass on this one. To your second point "The narrative that banning AK's will address these shootings is dangerous." It's not dangerous in the slightest. I have not heard a single person say that banning AK's will "address" or solve the shootings, But putting into place policies that individually may not make a large dent, but collectively work to address the problem is not dangerous at all. rather than a ban on AKs I have suggested a ban on all automatics for below 21 think it will sell? add I consider the AK ban dangerous because it accomplishes little more than 'we did something" Edited February 18, 2018 by twa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, twa said: rather than a ban on AKs I have suggested a ban on all automatics for below 21 think it will sell? I think it's a start and put forth in the right way it might. 18, 21, 30, it really doesn't matter the age. Education before possession, licensed and registered ownership, periodic training (yearly class? every five years?), etc. There are lots of ways to control the flow of guns into society and even who has access to them. Yes, criminals will still be able to get guns and those that are willing to plan long term to cause some sort of massive event will slip through the cracks, but putting up barriers combined with more mental health support (in school and out) will go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Setting regulations on rate of fire instead of banning AKs would be way more effective for what you're trying to do (Though I'm not real sure the effectiveness of what you're trying to do...) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, tshile said: Setting regulations on rate of fire instead of banning AKs would be way more effective for what you're trying to do (Though I'm not real sure the effectiveness of what you're trying to do...) if you talking to me, rate of fire is harder to regulate than barring semi-autos for young folk. Don't think you could get a semi-auto ban for all ages passed by the court or public, magazine sizes maybe, but those are easily worked around. not sure how you would define rate of fire, aside from bumpstocks and such which I would support requiring extensive background checks/licensing for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said: Oh yeah, he grew up in Anfield. I'm not into soccer all that much but he used to tell me how crazy **** would get after soccer matches if you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve been there at soccer games - on both sides of the white lines. It’s a lot better/calmer these days. I’ve stood on the cop at Anfield when it was all standing and there were about 15000 all crammed into the stand. With one toilet. You do the math and work out why there was water around your feet when it was not raining! @Gibbs Hog Heaven will tell you all about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 *Kop. The arl Kop 'hot leg.' You've not lived if you've not P down a rolled up Echo into someone's pocket. Wait. WHAT?!!!!! Hail. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 17 hours ago, twa said: Cops are not hired based on their ability to properly select and hit targets in high pressure situations. Teachers are at least as educated and screened , if some choose to pass the minimum gun related training police do (along with training on securing weapons) would you still object? if so what level training would satisfy you? Passing a "field test" is a pre-req for any job on any police force. From there, military experience is considered a plus for by essentially any police force in the country and many police forces have special programs and preferences for veterans. The federal government recently passed a law designed to further those advantages. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/06/02/trump-sign-cornyn-cops-bill-encourage-police-jobs-veterans Then police that are most likely to be in situations where there is a shooter even undergo more training. There's a reason that they haven't passed a similar law related to teaching. None of that is true for teachers and hiring teachers based on similar requirements/skills makes no sense. I could see granting some teachers the ability to carry a weapon at a school (just like we already do at many schools for cops, including the most recent on in FL), if they are willing to undergo extra screening and regular weapons training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, PeterMP said: I could see granting some teachers the ability to carry a weapon at a school (just like we already do at many schools for cops, including the most recent on in FL), if they are willing to undergo extra screening and regular weapons training. It would be a recipe for disaster. Apart from the chances of a teachers weapon getting into the wrong hands or an accidental discharge let’s think what happens in a shooting situation. Police are called and attend an active shooting with casualties. There is now a gunman/gunmen AND armed teachers. How do the police sort the one from the other? What are the odds that a teacher ends up getting shot by a police officer in a case of mistaken identity? There was an armed security guard at the school in Florida. Prevented nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, MartinC said: It would be a recipe for disaster. Apart from the chances of a teachers weapon getting into the wrong hands or an accidental discharge let’s think what happens in a shooting situation. Police are called and attend an active shooting with casualties. There is now a gunman/gunmen AND armed teachers. How do the police sort the one from the other? What are the odds that a teacher ends up getting shot by a police officer in a case of mistaken identity? There was an armed security guard at the school in Florida. Prevented nothing. First, you could certainly lock the gun away somewhere that it would be essentially impossible for any student to get into without the cooperation of the teacher. They make things called gun safes. From there, you could have the weapon have a finger print based trigger lock on it. Lastly, part of a requirement for having a gun would be the students can't know you have a gun. If you can't keep your mouth shut so that students know you have access to a gun, you lose the ability to have one. Not all teachers are going to have guns and students can't take what you don't know you have. From there, the number one thing in any situation like that for a civilian is to find some place and stay safe. The story would be no different for a teacher with a gun. They'd be able to guard/protect their classroom and whatever students they happened to have. That should minimize the risk of them getting shot, but also the teacher would have to know they are taking that risk onto themselves. And yes, in most/many cases, I'm not sure it would do any good. But if your requirement for a solution is that it stops all mass shootings, then you are going to reject every solution. If teachers are willing and able to undergo regular additional training, screening, persona risk, and implement the necessary security, it makes sense to allow them to do so in that in some case some times, they might actually do some good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 59 minutes ago, PeterMP said: First, you could certainly lock the gun away somewhere that it would be essentially impossible for any student to get into without the cooperation of the teacher. They make things called gun safes. In which case it’s going to have limited use in a situation were a quick response is needed and/or limited value as a deterrent. But I’m pleased your at least not advocating concealed carry. Quote From there, you could have the weapon have a finger print based trigger lock on it. So further limiting its value as deterrent or response. Quote Lastly, part of a requirement for having a gun would be the students can't know you have a gun. So it’s not a deterrent your advocating - fair enough. Quote And yes, in most/many cases, I'm not sure it would do any good. But if your requirement for a solution is that it stops all mass shootings, then you are going to reject every solution. Totally accept there is no perfect solution. But I’m certainly going to reject ideas which make things worse - and in my opinion having multiple armed civilians wandering around a shooting zone with armed police arriving looking for a gunman is an accident waiting to happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 This is encouraging. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: I could see granting some teachers the ability to carry a weapon at a school (just like we already do at many schools for cops, including the most recent on in FL), if they are willing to undergo extra screening and regular weapons training. That is basically what I have been saying,along with other staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, MartinC said: There was an armed security guard at the school in Florida. Prevented nothing. IIR, There was an armed, uniformed, police officer at Pulse nightclub. Didn't help. But yeah, I can see the argument that well, it might help. If only it weren't for the pesky fact that doing so greatly increases the risk of things like accidental shootings. (In fact, the statistics that show that such things happen vastly more often than stopping a mass shooting in progress.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Glad the students are speaking up. Might take my camera down to the March on the 24th. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 55 minutes ago, MartinC said: It would be a recipe for disaster. Apart from the chances of a teachers weapon getting into the wrong hands or an accidental discharge let’s think what happens in a shooting situation. Police are called and attend an active shooting with casualties. There is now a gunman/gunmen AND armed teachers. How do the police sort the one from the other? What are the odds that a teacher ends up getting shot by a police officer in a case of mistaken identity? There was an armed security guard at the school in Florida. Prevented nothing. What we have now is a recipe for mass murder. If you insist smart guns exist to eliminate wrong hands. In a shooting situation the cops rarely arrive till it is over,but you further your ability to prevent a shooters access to rooms or areas thus reducing risk and narrowing the area the police need to clear; Having armed and trained persons ON the scene and familiar with the situation and building. There are many ways to have the good guys/girls recognize the others, which I will not get into here. but the odds are no worse than being shot by a shooter One armed guard that his kid probably knew where he was is rather ineffective to be sure, was the cop in the parking lot awaiting the school letting out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, twa said: If you insist smart guns exist to eliminate wrong hands. I admit im hazy on this (no sarcasm) but I thought the NRA have successfully lobbied to ensure smart guns are effectively not available for sale in the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, MartinC said: I admit im hazy on this (no sarcasm) but I thought the NRA have successfully lobbied to ensure smart guns are effectively not available for sale in the US? Details. Details. Reality plays no part in this hypothetical discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, MartinC said: I admit im hazy on this (no sarcasm) but I thought the NRA have successfully lobbied to ensure smart guns are effectively not available for sale in the US? No, the gun dealers are afraid to sell them....but they are available if you insist there are also holsters that are damn hard to get a gun out of if you don't know how and of course biometric locks/safes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 22 minutes ago, Larry said: If only it weren't for the pesky fact that doing so greatly increases the risk of things like accidental shootings. (In fact, the statistics that show that such things happen vastly more often than stopping a mass shooting in progress.) When was the last time an accidental shooting happened at a school with the school resource officer involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Popeman38 said: When was the last time an accidental shooting happened at a school with the school resource officer involved? That's laughably specific lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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