Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Barry.Randolphe]

19 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@Skins24

@Renegade7

From the article:

The whole point is that the beheaded babies are fake news.  It's a lie.  There is not a mass of dead babies.  

 

Just like the beheaded babies being a lie, the 'mass rapes' are also lies. Nothing the IDF produces should be trusted until independently verified. It's propaganda. I have said this from the beginning because this is how things ALWAYS are with Israel.

 

“BETWEEN THE HAMMER AND THE ANVIL”

The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé

https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/

Quote

Since the revelations regarding Schwartz’s recent social media activity, her byline has not appeared in the paper and she has not attended editorial meetings. The paper said that a review into her social media “likes” is ongoing. “Those ‘likes’’ are unacceptable violations of our company policy,” said a Times spokesperson.

 

The bigger scandal may be the reporting itself, the process that allowed it into print, and the life-altering impact the reporting had for thousands of Palestinians whose deaths were justified by the alleged systematic sexual violence orchestrated by Hamas the paper claimed to have exposed.

Quote

As Schwartz began her own efforts to find evidence of sexual assault, the first specific allegations of rape began to emerge. A person identified in anonymous media interviews as a paramedic from the Israeli Air Force medical unit 669 claimed he saw evidence that two teenage girls at Kibbutz Nahal Oz had been raped and murdered in their bedroom. The man made other outrageous claims, however, that called his report into question. He claimed another rescuer “pulled out of the garbage” a baby who’d been stabbed multiple times. He also said he had seen “Arabic sentences that were written on entrances to houses … with the blood of the people that were living in the houses.” No such messages exist, and the story of the baby in the trash can has been debunked. The bigger problem was that no two girls at the kibbutz fit the source’s description. In future interviews, he changed the location to Kibbutz Be’eri. But no victims killed there matched the description either, as Mondoweiss reported.

Quote

At every turn, when the New York Times reporters ran into obstacles confirming tips, they turned to anonymous Israeli officials or witnesses who’d already been interviewed repeatedly in the press. Months after setting off on their assignment, the reporters found themselves exactly where they had begun, relying overwhelmingly on the word of Israeli officials, soldiers, and Zaka workers to substantiate their claim that more than 30 bodies of women and girls were discovered with signs of sexual abuse. On the Channel 12 podcast, Schwartz said the last remaining piece she needed for the story was a solid number from the Israeli authorities about any possible survivors of sexual violence. “We have four and we can stand behind that number,” she said she was told by the Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. No details were provided. The Times story ultimately reported there were “at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived.”

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Ah yes, Hamas valiantly crossed the boarder with machine guns and good intentions. 
 

They only raped a little.

Edited April 5 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Renegade7]

59 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@Skins24

@Renegade7

From the article:

The whole point is that the beheaded babies are fake news.  It's a lie.  There is not a mass of dead babies.  

 

My concern is some people don't want the truth, they want jus enough info, whether it's true or not, to justify their actions and stances.

[PokerPacker]

10 hours ago, Die Hard said:

Serious question. Let’s say you vote for Trump, Trump wins the election.

 

How does Trump handle the situation in Isreal differently/better?

 

My understanding of Trump is that he’s an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. He wants to pull the US out of NATO and withdraw US troops/bases across the world. He wants to disengage the US military from any conflict. He said he’d let Putin (an authoritarian leader) attack NATO countries and let European countries fend for themselves.
 

How do you think he’d engage with Netanyahu/Isreal?

 

What country/leadership in the world is dealing with Netanyahu/Isreal in a manner befitting your tastes?

I disagree with your assessment that Trump is an isolationist.  He just wants to isolate from functioning democracies.  He cozies up to fascist despots.

[Jabbyrwock]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

My concern is some people don't want the truth, they want jus enough info, whether it's true or not, to justify their actions and stances.

 

You always keep the "t" off when you write the word "just".  Shouldn't you also, then, write "jusify" for consistency?

 

...jus askin.

[Die Hard]

21 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

I disagree with your assessment that Trump is an isolationist.  He just wants to isolate from functioning democracies.  He cozies up to fascist despots.

I don’t disagree with your final point. But it’s not like he’s forming military/economic alliances/treaties with them either.

 

I know he created/raised a lot of tariffs to decrease imports (especially China)… and broke some economic alliances (NAFTA). 

[Skins24]

3 hours ago, Fergasun said:

@Skins24

@Renegade7

From the article:

The whole point is that the beheaded babies are fake news.  It's a lie.  There is not a mass of dead babies.  

? Nothing you quoted or in the article says there were no beheaded babies. This is my last post on this because I don't want to talk about this...

No one said there were mass dead babies. No one. But even if it was just one, does that make it ok? 

As stated, there is plenty of verifiable evidence to the contrary of that documentary. From HAMAS. I'm certainly not going to point you in the right direction, as Barry is over here already half radicalized, and most are recruitment videos 😂

 

Alright that's it. I have absolutely no qualms with you not believing. You don't have to. It's the internet, anyone can say anything. 

5 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

This is all nonsense. Why would we need to have elaborate protests against Russia

Because what they're doing is evil.

 

Isn't that why there are protests against Israel?

[CousinsCowgirl84]

There’s a fine line between evilness and martyrdom.

[PokerPacker]

56 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

Isn't that why there are protests against Israel?

We protest against Israel because nobody's doing anything about them.  The government is already on the right side of the Ukraine war.

[Fergasun]

9 hours ago, Skins24 said:

My mentioning of the babies was only to point out, that despite Al Jazeera's claims to the contrary, one can verify for themselves the authenticity of the reports. Not just that, the other stuff they claim may not have been true as well. 

You have implied multiple times on this thread that the debunking of "mass beheaded babies", which was claimed by Israel sources is not true.  You suggested I can go and confirm via open sources, other sources, etc. I did.  I posted the source.   This is a lie that has been used to justify brutality against Hamas. A lie repeated by Biden.  I don't think you should just back out and say, "I am done talking about it."  I am not saying this to defend terrorism -- death by a bullet or something worse is the same.   But people in the past have used lies about brutality to get an emotional reaction during war.  Now, I am done too. 

 

At the end of the day, we are still back to the question of "how do these sides come to peace?".  With both Hamas and Bibi tryingnto be key to the peace talks, I don't think it is possible.

 

 

[The Sisko]

23 hours ago, Die Hard said:

Serious question. Let’s say you vote for Trump, Trump wins the election.

 

How does Trump handle the situation in Isreal differently/better?

 

My understanding of Trump is that he’s an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. He wants to pull the US out of NATO and withdraw US troops/bases across the world. He wants to disengage the US military from any conflict. He said he’d let Putin (an authoritarian leader) attack NATO countries and let European countries fend for themselves.
 

How do you think he’d engage with Netanyahu/Isreal?

 

What country/leadership in the world is dealing with Netanyahu/Isreal in a manner befitting your tastes?

 

 

I've thought a good bit about this. I have no illusions about Tr卐mp doing better by the Palestinians or anyone other than himself for that matter. However, the Dems and especially Biden have proven they're not a whole hell of a lot better. So perhaps under Biden, the Palestinians would left to die and be ethnically cleansed from allegedly god given Jewish land more slowly. If the end result is the same, might as well let those chickens come home to roost for a change rather than allowing the ones responsible to just shrug and go back to their devices and social media. Perhaps if things really go to 💩 here, enough people will sit up and take notice, not only about this issue, but about a number of things that have been allowed to fester for years because the Dems didn't have the cojones to stand up to the Grand Oligarch's Party, SCOTUS being one recent example of this.

 

I acknowledge that there is also a good chance that we end up being a kinder, gentler version of Russia or China for a good while but, people have/had choices here and as the saying goes, they get the government they deserve. That's why our house is on the market and we have a backup plan. And no, I don't care that many will see that as selfish. I've spent enough time arguing this crap with people over the years. If that's what enough of the country wants, who am I to whine about it? Just un ass the A.O., keep it pushin' and let them have their right-wing paradise. 

 

23 hours ago, @DCGoldPants said:

 

Trump probably gives Bibi way more weapons and bombs and vehicles than Biden has/would. Bibi goes hardcore to keep himself in office and ramps up the attacks in Gaza. Other nations around Israel have been dying for an excuse to launch a full-scale attack on them without full-throated international support of Israel, especially in Europe. The US then sends troops to Israel because evangelists needed it protected to fulfill biblical prophecy.

 

In the end, a lot of people die. A lot more than now. 

I agree with the first part. He almost certainly would, assuming the defense contractors are willing to give him the kickbacks he'll demand. However, the Arabs are going to do jack squat about anything. This country obviously isn't going to supply them with advanced weapons to fight Israel and Putler doesn't have any spare weapons hanging around, even if they were worth a damn. In short, even the "evil" Iranians ain't bout dat life. Besides, most of the Arab states are more interested in doing business with Israel and suppressing their own populations to stay in power than going to war with a country they know they can't beat.

 

19 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Justice and revenge are not the same thing.

 

Is the beheading of Israeli babies supposed to be a justification for starving Palestinian babies?

 

We are truly lost if it is.

The reality is, Israel is about revenge. They've shown that all along, and quite frankly, I don't think it's unreasonable. Who could argue with them hunting down Nazis and later, Arabs that perpetrated attacks on them. In those cases, the collateral damage was usually minimal and the targets knew what they were getting into. One can argue about the morality of it, but as policy, it just is what it is and it avoids a lot of loss of innocent life. What I take issue with is the wanton disregard for civilian life and the scale of the revenge, i.e., starving an entire group of people, to take revenge on a group that had tepid support in Gaza when this specific attack happened. The only difference between Putler and Bibi is that the latter has much better weapons, intel, the genuine support of his population for the killing (not much else), and the all but unconditional backing of the US based on the lie that they're a democracy among autocrats. Well, that and the evangelicals' need to make their end times myth come true.

[Skins24]

8 hours ago, Fergasun said:

You have implied multiple times on this thread that the debunking of "mass beheaded babies", which was claimed by Israel sources is not true.  You suggested I can go and confirm via open sources, other sources, etc. I did.  I posted the source.   This is a lie that has been used to justify brutality against Hamas. A lie repeated by Biden.  I don't think you should just back out and say, "I am done talking about it."  I am not saying this to defend terrorism -- death by a bullet or something worse is the same.   But people in the past have used lies about brutality to get an emotional reaction during war.  Now, I am done too. 

 

At the end of the day, we are still back to the question of "how do these sides come to peace?".  With both Hamas and Bibi tryingnto be key to the peace talks, I don't think it is possible.

The source you posted mentioned absolutely nothing with regards to the manner of death. Literally nothing.

Your argument is that because your link says 38 children were killed and not 40 (where did this 40 number even come from?) that none were killed in the manner we were talking about.

Bit of a leap, no?

 

There is literally no reason for Israel to lie in this case, as Hamas themselves have posted countless videos and are proud of the the atrocities committed that day.

 

***

How do we come to peace?

I've posted earlier in this my thoughts and unfortunately no solutions are really feasible at this point..

1) The most preferable solution is a strong Palestinian state. This would require tons of help from it's neighbors, which as we have seen, is pretty hard to come by. We blame Israel for the humanitarian situation going on right now, but Egypt does have some share of that blame as well by not doing nearly enough to help (and yes, I know they're scared and why)

Who is willing to prop and hold Palestine up as it gets it's feet under it?

 

2) I don't see how this works in the long term, but I really can't think of anything else - the Palestinians integrated into Israel. Full citizenship. "Independent" if desired (which is likely) but with the full benefits of being an Israeli citizen.

 

Really though, nothing will work until both sides want peace.

 

 

9 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

We protest against Israel because nobody's doing anything about them.  The government is already on the right side of the Ukraine war.

The UN resolutions, the Genocide accusations to the International Court, etc. is not doing anything?

Technically, the government is on the right side of this war as well (as the other side is a terrorist organization.)

 

And the government being on the right side has not stopped Russia from committing atrocities. Why the silence from the populace?

[PokerPacker]

2 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

The UN resolutions, the Genocide accusations to the International Court, etc. is not doing anything?

Technically, the government is on the right side of this war as well (as the other side is a terrorist organization.)

Wake me up when the UN does something beyond wagging their finger.
And no, it is not "technically" on the right side.  Would we be "technically" on the right side to support NAZIs because they're fighting against French Resistance terrorists?

 

2 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

And the government being on the right side has not stopped Russia from committing atrocities. Why the silence from the populace?

We are actively supporting Ukraine.  We're sending them weapons and intelligence to fight back.  We're issuing sanctions hurting Russia's ability to wage war; to the point they're stealing ****ing washing machines to scavenge computer chips because they can't buy them to make their weapons.  And now they have to rely on ****ing North Korean weaponry.  Because we're actually doing something tangible against Russia.  Unlike Israel where we tell them we'd like them to please stop committing genocide, and then turn around and give them more weapons to continue committing genocide.

[The Sisko]

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that Israel is held to a higher standard. As a state actor and alleged democracy, it's supposed to be held to a higher standard than groups like Hamas and rogue states like N. Korea...just like everyone else. However, it's actually quite the opposite. The US has used its veto power at the UN extensively to protect Israel from international law and has a double standard for arms purchases.

 

Quote

 

https://globalaffairs.org/bluemarble/how-us-has-used-its-power-un-support-israel-decades

The U.S. has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel more than any other council member – 45 times as of December 18, 2023, according to an analysis by Blue Marble. The U.S. has vetoed 89 Security Council resolutions in total since 1945, meaning slightly over half of its vetoes have been used on resolutions critical of Israel.(emphasis added) Of the vetoed resolutions, 33 pertained to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories or the country’s treatment of the Palestinian people.

The first time the U.S. used its veto to support Israel was in September of 1972, when it vetoed a resolution that called on Israel to cease its aggression in Lebanon. This was the second time the U.S. had ever used its Security Council veto; the first was on a resolution regarding Southern Rhodesia. After that, the U.S. used its veto to halt resolutions critical of Israel frequently. Between 1982 and 1990, the U.S. used its veto in support of Israel 21 times – nearly half of the U.S.’s total vetoes in support of Israel. The vetoed resolutions criticized Israel’s aggression in Lebanon and its occupation of Palestinian territories. Since 2001, the U.S. has used its veto in support of Israel 14 times.

 

 

Quote

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/26/1240857410/how-do-leahy-laws-apply-to-u-s-support-for-israel

FADEL: Critics will say that the U.S. has one policy for Israel as its ally and different policies for other allies that receive military aid or commercial transfers. Is that fair, to say that?

BLAHA: Well, the State Department has said publicly that the same policy applies to Israel as apply to every other country. In practice, Israel gets special treatment. In practice, arms transfers that, given similar conduct by any other country would not be allowed, are being allowed for Israel. You may recall the Biden administration suspended items that could be used in offensive air-to-ground operations for Saudi Arabia because they were causing civilian casualties. Those civilian casualties are nowhere near the civilian casualties that Israeli air-to-ground operations have caused so far. Yet unconditional transfers of air-to-ground munitions continue.

 

 

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Skins24 said:

 

Who is willing to prop and hold Palestine up as it gets it's feet under it?

 

Me.  

 

I'd support a bill right now, stating that any aid sent to Israel will be matched, dollar for dollar, to Palestine. 

 

(Obviously, I'm not proposing we send them equal weapons.  But I'd love it if evere dollar of Israeli weapons equaled a dollar of Palestenian humanitarian aid.)

[Skins24]

 

5 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that Israel is held to a higher standard. As a state actor and alleged democracy, it's supposed to be held to a higher standard than groups like Hamas and rogue states like N. Korea...just like everyone else. However, it's actually quite the opposite. The US has used its veto power at the UN extensively to protect Israel from international law and has a double standard for arms purchases.

Doesn't matter what the U.S. does. The fact that dozens of resolutions have been brought forth does.

What other country has had that many UN resolutions against it?

How many resolutions against China for what they're doing to the Uyghurs? How many resolutions against Myanmar for what they're doing to the Rohingya? Against Ethiopia for what they're doing to Trigayans? Resolutions with teeth for what the Russians are doing to Ukraine? Their are dozens of other examples of worse atrocities being committed, with not even a fraction of attention to that Israel garners.

 

 

1 hour ago, PokerPacker said:

Wake me up when the UN does something beyond wagging their finger.
And no, it is not "technically" on the right side.  Would we be "technically" on the right side to support NAZIs because they're fighting against French Resistance terrorists?

You'd be sleep for a long time, lol

 

Not even close to an accurate comparison.

More accurate comparison would be you saying the right side would be Al Q after 9/11. No.

[Skins24]

22 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Me.  

 

I'd support a bill right now, stating that any aid sent to Israel will be matched, dollar for dollar, to Palestine. 

 

(Obviously, I'm not proposing we send them equal weapons.  But I'd love it if evere dollar of Israeli weapons equaled a dollar of Palestenian humanitarian aid.)

So this is interesting.

For there to be a strong Palestinian state, I think weapons would pretty much have to be part of the equation. OR guarantees from (the US? Israel? some other country) that we or they would fully protect them and their right to defend themselves.

[Larry]

3 hours ago, Skins24 said:

So this is interesting.

For there to be a strong Palestinian state, I think weapons would pretty much have to be part of the equation. OR guarantees from (the US? Israel? some other country) that we or they would fully protect them and their right to defend themselves.

 

Part of me would be willing to send US troops, too. To do several things. 

 

(For example, to take over inspecting incoming shipments for weapons. While simultaneously guaranteeing that we wouldn't be blocking, say, macaroni and cheese.)

 

Although, yeah. I'm also aware that they would immediately become targets, themselves. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

45 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Part of me would be willing to send US troops, too. To do several things. 

 

(For example, to take over inspecting incoming shipments for weapons. While simultaneously guaranteeing that we wouldn't be blocking, say, macaroni and cheese.)

 

Although, yeah. I'm also aware that they would immediately become targets, themselves. 

 

I've stated several times but again for emphasis. I'd support Biden essentially telling Israel to gtfo. Tell Hamas they have 72 hours to unconditionally release all hostages or we're coming to get them. Tell the 26th MEU to get theirs boots on. Very publicly start preparing for the largest land invasion since ****ing D-day. 

 

Once they're all released, then we jerk the chain on Israel hard. Tell them they're welcome to go back to hunting Hamas but we'll be watching. Anything even close to war crimes and they lose their iron dome. 

 

[PeterMP]

20 hours ago, Skins24 said:

 

Doesn't matter what the U.S. does. The fact that dozens of resolutions have been brought forth does.

What other country has had that many UN resolutions against it?

How many resolutions against China for what they're doing to the Uyghurs? How many resolutions against Myanmar for what they're doing to the Rohingya? Against Ethiopia for what they're doing to Trigayans? Resolutions with teeth for what the Russians are doing to Ukraine? Their are dozens of other examples of worse atrocities being committed, with not even a fraction of attention to that Israel garners.

 

 

You'd be sleep for a long time, lol

 

Not even close to an accurate comparison.

More accurate comparison would be you saying the right side would be Al Q after 9/11. No.

 

China is different because it is on the security council.  That pretty much prevents any UN resolution from passing.

 

The other conflicts haven't been going on to nearly the same extent for nearly as long.  But there are UN resolutions that cover them.  For example, there has been a UN investigation of what is happening in Ethiopia that went on for several years and ended partly because Ethiopia made some promises (which I don't think they've actually followed through on) in exchange for some money from the EU.  So the west ended the pressure for the investigation.

 

The same is not happening with respect to Israel and the Palestinians because the US won't allow it.  We are not okaying the creation of a UN investigative force to go into Israel/Gaza and investigate atrocities or other war crimes committed by either side.

Edited April 6 by PeterMP

[PleaseBlitz]

This makes me so mad that Israel is just like oopsies. 
 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

This makes me so mad that Israel is just like oopsies. 
 

Israel fired several officers, launched an investigation, and has allowed more aid into Gaza. It sucks those guys died but they were working in a war zone. It’s not their fault at all, but mistakes happen. Israel needs more checks on who there field military units can choose to target, but they didn’t just oopsie.

 

 

Edited April 6 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PleaseBlitz]

12 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Israel fired several officers, launched an investigation, and has allowed more aid into Gaza. It sucks those guys died but they were working in a war zone. It’s not their fault at all, but mistakes happen. Israel needs more checks on who there field military units can choose to target, but they didn’t just oopsie.

 

 

Based on the reporting Ive seen, including the IDF’s own report, the IDF disregarded intelligence, ie, WCK telling them they were operating in the area, which was not a part of the active war zone, and initiated a strike against a convoy clearly marked as carrying humanitarian aid and for which they had no valid reason to attack.  Those responsible should be identified and investigated for committing a war crime, not just fired. The report didn’t identify any IDF soldiers, so who even knows if they really fired anybody. But hey, they also “formally reprimanded” 2 other officers, so I guess it’s cool that they are killing Americans now. 
 

As for IDF launching an investigation of its own conduct, while its in the middle of intentionally starving a few hundred thousand people to death, let’s just say I’m not convinced that investigation (which took all of 4 days) is all that valid. 

Edited April 6 by PleaseBlitz

[TradeTheBeal!]

Since we’ve inevitably reached the  “ZOMG GENOCIDE/STARVATION OF MILLIONS” portion of the dialogue, I’d like to point out that the population of the Gaza Strip has approximately doubled since 2005, from roughly 1 million to a robust 2+ million.  
 

Now I’m just a simple horse-trader, but this strikes me as much different than the other (mostly leftist) genocides I learned about back in school.

[The Sisko]

20 hours ago, Skins24 said:

 

Doesn't matter what the U.S. does. The fact that dozens of resolutions have been brought forth does.

What other country has had that many UN resolutions against it?

How many resolutions against China for what they're doing to the Uyghurs? How many resolutions against Myanmar for what they're doing to the Rohingya? Against Ethiopia for what they're doing to Trigayans? Resolutions with teeth for what the Russians are doing to Ukraine? Their are dozens of other examples of worse atrocities being committed, with not even a fraction of attention to that Israel garners.

Not as many, but you know which country also received a boatload of UN resolutions against it? South Africa. Your logic excuses their apartheid government as well. I guess it makes sense though since Israel was happy to arm the apartheid era S. Africans. But then I guess one apartheid state would naturally support another.