PeterMP Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 (edited) The Crusades in total lasted about 250 years. 250 years during which there were plenty of wars in Europe too. And it isn't like the Crusades didn't include Europe. To talk about the wars in the ME and the Crusades and ignore that they involved much of Europe is dishonest. Between the 1st and 5th crusades there were 7 different conflicts between France and England alone (including the French invading Normandy to take back control from English control/influence). Prior to WWI, the area was heavily Muslim and there wasn't much conflict between them and the small Jewish and Christian populations there and certainly not any more than the Catholic and Protestant populations that existed in places like Ireland. Edited April 20 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Near_East#Medieval_times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 Am I too stoned or are we really arguing that Europe is more bloodsoaked/war torn than the cradle of civilization and "home" of the major religions of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbyrwock Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 I'm just hoping that when you guys are finished figuring out the cultural/regional standings we end up pretty high in the draft. I mean...I'm not saying we start a war and throw the season...but we really could use some help on the right...utter chaos there at the moment and we could use a visionary. I hear its a strong infant class, assuming our front office can take advantage. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Am I too stoned or are we really arguing that Europe is more bloodsoaked/war torn than the cradle of civilization and "home" of the major religions of the world? I'm certainly not going to tell you there has been more violence in Europe than in the ME. Especially post-WWII and even post-WWI. But I'm not sure the ME has been worse longer term, especially post-WWII, to single it out. It is especially odd to single out ME for violence and start talking about wars started by European powers. Edited April 21 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 17 minutes ago, PeterMP said: I'm certainly not going to tell you there has been more violence in Europe than in the ME. Especially post-WWII and even post-WWI. But I'm not sure the ME has been worse longer term, especially post-WWII, to single it out. It is especially odd to single out ME for violence and start talking about wars started by European powers. I'm mainly talking about well before ww1. That's why I said last 3,000 years. Everyone tried to take the middle east from every angle. Caesar, Khan, every pope, Napoleon, Bush I and II. The fact that ME wars were started by European powers only reinforces my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I'm mainly talking about well before ww1. That's why I said last 3,000 years. Everyone tried to take the middle east from every angle. Caesar, Khan, every pope, Napoleon, Bush I and II. The fact that ME wars were started by European powers only reinforces my point. Rome took much of Europe too and through war. Napoleon invaded multiple European countries. Both were European and created plenty of death and misery among Europeans and in Europe. The Mongols invaded into Central and Eastern Europe too, and their invasions displaced people causing a cascading affect of conflicts and death and misery throughout Europe. None of those cases were specific or unique to the ME. Popes caused plenty of death and misery in Europe first by contributing to wars against pagan countries to convert them into Catholic countries, and then pitting Catholic countries against Protestant countries to try to contain Protestantism. And if we are going to talk about death and misery wars started by European powers in the ME cause death and misery of and to Europeans. To talk about the wars started by them as if they are specific to death and misery in the ME doesn't make much sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) We are going back to rome? 💀💀💀 There was a **** **** ton of violence in Mesopotamia and while I’m not a huge geographer in pretty sure that’s close to the ME… Edited April 21 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) @TheGreatBuzz "There's always been fighting there because that's where civilization started" doesn't sound synonymous with "There's always been fighting there, that's just who they are"... It's also debatable how much religion played a part in that. Once upon a time it was the middle of the ancient world...then it was discovered to some of the largest deposits of crude oil in the known world. I reject the notion that this part of the world won't figure it out because they never did. They aren't the center of the known world giving strategic value having control over it, and in a post-oil world their influence and magnetism for outside influence will drop considerably. And for those of you less optimistic then me, entirely possible it gets so hot there by end of this century no one will be there to fight for it anymore. I'm fine with focusing on de-escalation and humanitarian efforts in that part of the world over "trying to save it"...right or wrong the Middle East wouldn't go out of its way to do the same for us if it came to it. I'd rather see more from Europe (and Japan since they offering to share leader of the free load with us) with respect to what we are currently doing for Israel and ask ourselves some hard questions if they refuse. Giving up on the Middle East because "that's the way they've always been" doesn't sound right to me, maybe it's jus the angle I'm looking at history from. You know how many ancient libraries the Mongols burned to the ground around that area and central Asia? A lot. Edited April 21 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 The problem isn’t that the Middle East has a worse history than the rest of the world the problem is (for the most part) the rest of the world advanced into modern history and they’re stuck in 7th century bull****. of course they could figure it out. But there’s no reason to think they will any time soon. add to it the super powers of the world seem continent using them for their proxy war and other things… wake me when backasswards repressive religion and dictatorships don’t dominate the landscape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted April 21 Author Share Posted April 21 How is it that we (US) spent 18 years in Iraq and 20 years in Afghanistan, and that hasn't given us some great insight into the Middle East. It's a bit underwhelming... although Iraq and Afghanistan are two totally different countries. Maybe that is the insight... each country and group of people is very different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 36 minutes ago, Fergasun said: How is it that we (US) spent 18 years in Iraq and 20 years in Afghanistan, and that hasn't given us some great insight into the Middle East. It's a bit underwhelming... although Iraq and Afghanistan are two totally different countries. Maybe that is the insight... each country and group of people is very different. Us now being a superpower and still saying "It's complicated..." when really it's difficult at best to make "everyone happy" where everyone hates each other...this is exactly what Founding Fathers warned us about regarding "entangled relationships"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: @TheGreatBuzz "There's always been fighting there because that's where civilization started" doesn't sound synonymous with "There's always been fighting there, that's just who they are"... It's also debatable how much religion played a part in that. Once upon a time it was the middle of the ancient world...then it was discovered to some of the largest deposits of crude oil in the known world. I reject the notion that this part of the world won't figure it out because they never did. They aren't the center of the known world giving strategic value having control over it, and in a post-oil world their influence and magnetism for outside influence will drop considerably. And for those of you less optimistic then me, entirely possible it gets so hot there by end of this century no one will be there to fight for it anymore. I'm fine with focusing on de-escalation and humanitarian efforts in that part of the world over "trying to save it"...right or wrong the Middle East wouldn't go out of its way to do the same for us if it came to it. I'd rather see more from Europe (and Japan since they offering to share leader of the free load with us) with respect to what we are currently doing for Israel and ask ourselves some hard questions if they refuse. Giving up on the Middle East because "that's the way they've always been" doesn't sound right to me, maybe it's jus the angle I'm looking at history from. You know how many ancient libraries the Mongols burned to the ground around that area and central Asia? A lot. I'm backing out of this debate. I don't care enough to cite a bunch of sources and ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, tshile said: The problem isn’t that the Middle East has a worse history than the rest of the world the problem is (for the most part) the rest of the world advanced into modern history and they’re stuck in 7th century bull****. of course they could figure it out. But there’s no reason to think they will any time soon. add to it the super powers of the world seem continent using them for their proxy war and other things… wake me when backasswards repressive religion and dictatorships don’t dominate the landscape. But they weren't stuck in the 7th century. For hundreds of years through the 13th-17th century in terms of women's rights and religious tolerance the Ottoman Empire was ahead of Europe in many cased. They did fall behind some in the 1800s but in the late 1800s they started a modernization effort and were catching up. The ME is what is largely because of who western powers decided to support before and after WW1 and 2 and people like Reagan doubled down on during the Cold War. We and other western countries have consistently supported extremists that have 7th century beliefs. We had a hand in making the problem and likely will need to have a role in fixing it. Edited April 21 by PeterMP 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 33 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I'm backing out of this debate. I don't care enough to cite a bunch of sources and ****. Pot and munches vs ME debate on ES. Tough decision 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 2 hours ago, Fergasun said: How is it that we (US) spent 18 years in Iraq and 20 years in Afghanistan, and that hasn't given us some great insight into the Middle East. It's a bit underwhelming... although Iraq and Afghanistan are two totally different countries. Maybe that is the insight... each country and group of people is very different. We only understand problems we can kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Seeing USC cancel graduation over protests of this war. When is it time to take these growing anti-war protests seriously as opposed to blowing them off? Trying to stop them via force is of course creating more of them in solidarity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Ayyyye, remember this doofus?!? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 😈 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: When is it time to take these growing anti-war protests seriously as opposed to blowing them off? Never 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Seeing USC cancel graduation over protests of this war. When is it time to take these growing anti-war protests seriously as opposed to blowing them off? Trying to stop them via force is of course creating more of them in solidarity. You can’t take anyone seriously who is waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags around. Anyone doing that is either ignorant or evil. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: You can’t take anyone seriously who is waving Hamas and Hezbollah flags around. Anyone doing that is either ignorant or evil. That's what everyone is doing on every campus? Some on some? Hyperbole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: That's what everyone is doing on every campus? Some on some? Hyperbole? Once the protesters weed out those bad apples we can talk about taking them seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 32 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Once the protesters weed out those bad apples we can talk about taking them seriously. How do you suggest that they "weed" them out? Are you suggesting that they use violence to deter people from protesting that show up that don't agree with many of the other protestors' views. On Columbia's campus some of the protestors were Jewish. Should they resort to violence to eject more extremists Muslims that are also protesting? (There was actually a funny dichotomy the other day on cnn.com. They had an opinion piece by somebody that was Jewish that visited Columbia talking about how awful the situation was. At the top of the same page, they had a link to a group of Jewish protestors that were protesting Israel's actions in Gaza by camping out and were celebrating Passover as they did so. And the one guy was talking about how he couldn't imagine celebrating Passover doing anything else.) (In general, that's just such a bad talking point that at least goes back to the 1960's and the Vietnam war. Yes, some of the Vietnam war protestors weren't serious. Some of them were criminal and violent and weren't helping. But many of them were young people that saw what the US was doing was screwed up and wanted to make thing better. Discounting them all because of the first two groups does them, this country, and really everybody else a disservice.) Edited April 26 by PeterMP 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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