Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Kurd Cudins]

Based on the timing of the uptick in protests and the fact that many of those arrested are not students, I think it would be naive to not assume Russia is involved.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Some of you all need to look at a map of overseas military bases before saying we didn't take land in Japan, Germany, etc.

 

[PeterMP]

@tshile

 

I can't say it is permanent.  People/countries do forget and make the mistakes they have made in the past.

 

I can only speak to what has and did happen.  I can't speak to some imaginary future.

 

What we did and tried to do in Afghanistan is extremely different than what Israel has a history of doing with respect to Palestinians and even its other Arab neighbors.

 

Yes, there are similarities, but the Israel has never put large sums of money (or any real support) into building a stable Palestinians state/military/government. (And they really haven't for any of their neighbors).  But that's exactly what we did with Afghanistan, Iraq, and going back to WWII Japan and Germany.

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Some of you all need to look at a map of overseas military bases before saying we didn't take land in Japan, Germany, etc.

 

 

Military bases in Japan and Germany are governed based on treaties with the respective countries.

 

And while sometimes there are issues, for the most part, the people that live there (and their elected governments) want us there.

[tshile]

@PeterMP

i understand. Again - I see the differences. I just also see similarities. 
 

and I think most people agree, if we could agree there are similarities, that Israel has a history of being significantly more reckless with their “national security” moves 

 

our “national security” moves, warts and all, show way more finesse than theirs. And even we have issues with, for instance, having an eye on natural resources and how it can benefit us…

Edited April 26 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

11 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Military bases in Japan and Germany are governed based on treaties with the respective countries.

 

Treaties formed as part of their unconditional surrender. They didn't get much say. In many ways, they still don't. 

 

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

And while sometimes there are issues, for the most part, the people that live there (and their elected governments) want us there.

 

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[PeterMP]

One last point on this topic.  Again, post-WWII we were taking things like the Philippines and saying, you should be your own country.

 

While France was essentially re-invading Vietnam to try to essentially recolonize it.  Post-WWII France didn't nearly have the ability to project power the way that the US did.  And their thought process post-WWII was not that Vietnam was too far away or that they could benefit some other way by not having Vietnam be a colony.

[Skins24]

28 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

They've occupied Gaza before.  They did not rebuild it or try to create a government for Palestinians.  This is not comparable.

Was it Israel's responsibility to do so?

And at what point? After '67? After 73?

 

Rebuilding while actively defending against is difficult.

 

 

edit to add: What incentive does Israel have to actively build up nations that want them wiped out? I can't think of one. There would have to be extremely strong guarantees that any money/weapons/etc. would not be used against Israel. Who is going to sign that?

 

Edited April 26 by Skins24

[Fergasun]

@Skins24

You could make the same argument about South Africa and apartheid over the years... yet somehow Nelson Mandela is recognized as a "Top 5 World Leader".  I would argue that the Palestinians / Hamas need people like him to help bring about the peace - but even his past is not clean.    

 

It's messy.  And it's not easy to simplify.  

 

What we have now with Israel-Palestine essentially a "one-state solution" with the "state" strangling the colony and the colony fighting back.  America has sided with the state traditionally, and now younger Americans have taken the note that "gee, maybe the colonized people have a point and I can see why they are fighting back."  This is what the protestors are focusing on.  I'm sympathetic to protestors and especially college protestors having first amendment rights and being the appropriate place to discuss this.  

 

At the same time, there's still the larger group of Arabs/Islamists, beyond Palestine, who are anti-Israel.  I have no idea what percentage of the Arab world this is.  I think it is shrinking, and I think more and more Arab leaders are at least normalizing relationships with Israel.  I still think many of their country-men may not fully be on board with their leaders (see, for instance, this recent polling of Jordan: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-public-opinion-poll-jordanians-favor-de-escalation-region-sentiment-against).   

Quote

Despite being officially at peace with Israel for almost three decades, a solid majority (84%) of Jordanians across all age groups stand opposed to having business deals with Israeli companies even if it would help their economy. This data is consistent with Jordanian attitudes documented in past polls between July 2020 and March 2022.  Jordanians also remain steadfastly opposed to other sorts of cooperation with Israel, including receiving humanitarian aid from Israel even in dire circumstances. Three-quarters (76%) of respondents agreed with this statement: “in case of an earthquake or other natural disaster, as we just saw in Syria and Turkey, Arab countries should refuse any humanitarian aid from Israel.” 

That is Jordan whom are considered an ally to Israel.  To us in America, this is somewhat of an insane viewpoint.  We tip-toe around the antisemitism in the Arab world -- is it solely religiously based or are there other reasons?  I could speculate on suspicion that Israel will want to take back all the biblical land.  

 

Israel and their citizens are responding to the second item -- their constant threat and history with the Arabs in the Middle East.  You are all talking about Mexico-USA, could could we imagine being neighbors with a country that's like, "75% of Mexicans don't want to be trading partners with American and wouldn't accept aid from them."  It's too hard to wrap my brain around this viewpoint -- from an American.  

 

The peace process needs to address both items.  But how is Israel killing 30,000 (did they stop counting or did the bombs stop?) Gazans going to do anything but enflame both the Israel-Palestine issue and the larger place in the Middle East issue?  Israel strangling harder is not going to solve anything.  How does this come down to anything but the everlasting religious war?  You don't hear many voices on the Arab side going the peace with Israel route -- understandable that their existence is a sore point, the world is not all of sudden going to say "okay, let's move Israel somewhere else".  

 

I would like to understand more on the Arab perspective, as I'm sure this western understanding is probably pro-Israeli bias.  For most of us with a Western/American perspective we would think "it happened, move on and stop hating Israel" -- but look at what we did with the Native Americans. 

 

Sorry for plopping these thoughts in the middle of 10+ replies of an active conversation.... we'll see how this goes.  

[PeterMP]

17 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Treaties formed as part of their unconditional surrender. They didn't get much say. In many ways, they still don't. 

 

 

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

 

Japan and Germany have both signed new treaties since the surrender that cover US troops and bases.  None of that is based on the older treaties.  They don't get to independently set the terms.  It is our military and our people.  But they get a say and a choice (the choice being we leave and they are on their own).

 

There are public opinion polls that cover things like our support in said countries.

 

https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/majorities-support-us-bases-key-allied-nations

 

Over 60% of Germans and Japanese currently support US bases. (As shown, the numbers have gone up and down through the years but greater than 50% is the norm). 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

17 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

Was it Israel's responsibility to do so?

And at what point? After '67? After 73?

 

Rebuilding while actively defending against is difficult.

 

 

edit to add: What incentive does Israel have to actively build up nations that want them wiped out? I can't think of one. There would have to be extremely strong guarantees that any money/weapons/etc. would not be used against Israel. Who is going to sign that?

 

 

This is moving the goal post.  The point was that what we did in Germany, Japan, tried to in Afghanistan, etc. is fundamentally different than what Israel has tried to do.

 

Doing just what you are responsible for isn't always the right thing or make things better.

 

Were we responsible for rebuilding Japan and Germany after WWII?  And even our allies?  Did we have a responsibility to intiate, support, and fund the Marshall program?  

 

Today, do we have a responsibility to carry out much of the foreign aid spending we do?

 

What country wants them wiped out?  (I guess Iran but even much of that is garbage/propaganda I tend to think.)  Even Hamas in their latest charter has backed off that sort of language.

 

Israel is a nuclear power.  One of the most successful economies in the world.  Has the backing of the most powerful country in the world.  Has consistently and soundly defeated its neighbors in every war they've ever fought.  Nobody is wiping Israel out in the foreseeable future.

 

 

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[Skins24]

6 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@Skins24

It's messy.  And it's not easy to simplify.  

Thus concludes the whole thread 😁

Seriously. This is it. We try to simplify it. Try to put it in black and white. But we could never as it will never be simple and never be black and white.

 

Quote

That is Jordan whom are considered an ally to Israel.  To us in America, this is somewhat of an insane viewpoint.

Yes, it's an insane view to have our standpoint. The hatred runs deep, but that deep? And this goes with what we're having now about Israel rebuilding or doing more to prop up a Palestine.

Even if Israel offered to do so, would the Palestinians accept it?

[PeterMP]

19 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

At the same time, there's still the larger group of Arabs/Islamists, beyond Palestine, who are anti-Israel.  I have no idea what percentage of the Arab world this is.  I think it is shrinking, and I think more and more Arab leaders are at least normalizing relationships with Israel.  I still think many of their country-men may not fully be on board with their leaders (see, for instance, this recent polling of Jordan: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-public-opinion-poll-jordanians-favor-de-escalation-region-sentiment-against).   

That is Jordan whom are considered an ally to Israel.  To us in America, this is somewhat of an insane viewpoint.  We tip-toe around the antisemitism in the Arab world -- is it solely religiously based or are there other reasons?  I could speculate on suspicion that Israel will want to take back all the biblical land.  

 

Israel and their citizens are responding to the second item -- their constant threat and history with the Arabs in the Middle East.  You are all talking about Mexico-USA, could could we imagine being neighbors with a country that's like, "75% of Mexicans don't want to be trading partners with American and wouldn't accept aid from them."  It's too hard to wrap my brain around this viewpoint -- from an American.  

 

I will point out that I think for people a little older, this type of mind set isn't unthinkable.  To my father, buying a Japanese car was unthinkable.

 

And I suspect it went the other way too.

 

On one hand, my father wouldn't buy a Japanese car.  On the other hand, he had no problem with us having troops in Japan to fight the communists.

 

There was a lot of racist propaganda in the US, especially directed to the Japanese, during WWII.  The relevant attitudes didn't just disappear after the war.

Edited April 26 by PeterMP

[Skins24]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

This is moving the goal post.  The point was that what we did in Germany, Japan, tried to in Afghanistan, etc. is fundamentally different than what Israel has tried to do.

 

Doing just what you are responsible for isn't always the right thing or make things better.

 

Were we responsible for rebuilding Japan and Germany after WWII?  And even our allies?  Did we have a responsibility to intiate, support, and fund the Marshall program? 

Yes it is fundamentally different as, at least WWII, had a definitive end. 

We did not start rebuilding as WWII was still going on.

 

At what point did Israel have any incentive, or even chance, to start creating a strong Palestinian state?

 

And if Israel wasn't going to do it, what was stopping all of their Arab "friends"?

 

 

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

25 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Over 60% of Germans and Japanese currently support US bases. (As shown, the numbers have gone up and down through the years but greater than 50% is the norm). 

 

 

Probably considered anecdotal but survey the people that live immediately around the base. You'll get much different results. 

*speaking from personal experience. 

 

As for the rest, look into the negotiations when we wanted to put a nuke carrier in Japan. They said no due to our 'complicated history' and we basically told them to enjoy speaking Korean. We're moving our Navy to Guam instead. Peace. 

 

It's hard to look at the different situations because they're unique. I brought this up just to rebutt the idea that we don't colonize the places we conquer. 

[tshile]

Hah. I’ve found myself in the middle of the protest at the art institute of Chicago

[tshile]

 

 

was supposed to take the kids on the bus to the planetary museum and other things but they’ve blocked the route and ruined that. 

[tshile]

41 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I brought this up just to rebutt the idea that we don't colonize the places we conquer. 

Colonization has many different forms

 

it strikes me that these particular posters are ignoring that. 
 

we didn’t call them the United States

 

but we got as close as you can. 
 

and when you consider the Cold War that followed (which you can argue never ended)… I mean we have decades upon decades of the USA and USSR/Russia/Communism fighting over essentially the entire globe. 
 

and for this “but we care and do it the right way” nonsense, we’ve overthrown democratically elected leaders to install dictators simply because we believed it would benefit us. 
 

there’s nothing moralistic about it. It’s just modern colonization and global domination in a slightly different form to tamp down international criticism just enough to get away with it. 
 

it’s baffling this is lost on so many 

[tshile]

I’ll give the Chicago police credit. They showed up quickly and shut down the roads and made a huge presence but didn’t instigate anything. Let them do their thing and convinced them to move out of the roadway and take their protest to a less problematic area for the rest of us. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

On the one hand, non-violent activism/protest is positive and useful and quintessentially “American”.

 

On the other hand….absolutely, positively do not ever “take seriously” or legitimize petulant, moron dip****s like this “student”.

 

 

[Larry]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Probably considered anecdotal but survey the people that live immediately around the base. You'll get much different results. 

*speaking from personal experience. 

 

Recall my dad telling me that occasionally the folks who lived outside the bases in Minessota would get irate about all the airmen everywhere, then the base would have a payday where everybody got paid in $2 bills. Not their entire pay. But every serviceman got at least 10 or so of them. 

 

The idea was that for the next two weeks, every business in town would see those $2 bills in their cash drawer. And know that they came from the Air Force base. 

[Captain Wiggles]

Yeah saw that video earlier where dudes calling for the murder of Zionists, Fascists, and Nazis. What a bozo. I don't agree with those groups but they have every right to exist and even gather peacefully same as anyone else. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[PeterMP]

7 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Probably considered anecdotal but survey the people that live immediately around the base. You'll get much different results. 

*speaking from personal experience. 

 

As for the rest, look into the negotiations when we wanted to put a nuke carrier in Japan. They said no due to our 'complicated history' and we basically told them to enjoy speaking Korean. We're moving our Navy to Guam instead. Peace. 

 

It's hard to look at the different situations because they're unique. I brought this up just to rebutt the idea that we don't colonize the places we conquer. 

 

Like every other country in the world, Japan has to make complicated decisions where there are multiple pros and cons and things are not black and white.

 

Japan wants protection/security as if they have nuclear weapons without actually having nuclear weapons.  That comes with consequences.  One of those consequences is dealing with demands from the US.

 

If Japan doesn't want to deal with demands from the US and maintain their security as if they are a nuclear state, they have the means, the technology, the know how, the resources, and the material to become a nuclear state that would likely prevent them from attacks from N. Korea, Russia, and China.

 

The US has gone to only nuclear powered air craft carriers.  We had the choice to either build a non-nuclear powered carrier just for Japan, to try to fulfill the mission and protect our troops in Japan w/o an air craft carrier, or get Japan to accept nuclear powered air craft carriers (in some ports).  The last thing is what is worked.  That we didn't do the 1st 2 isn't outrageous.

 

The fact that Japan doesn't get to solely dictate the means and measures by which we provide their security, doesn't make them our colony.  It means that we aren't their colony.  If they could completely dictate how we provided for their security, we would be the colony.

6 hours ago, tshile said:

Colonization has many different forms

 

it strikes me that these particular posters are ignoring that. 
 

we didn’t call them the United States

 

but we got as close as you can. 
 

and when you consider the Cold War that followed (which you can argue never ended)… I mean we have decades upon decades of the USA and USSR/Russia/Communism fighting over essentially the entire globe. 
 

and for this “but we care and do it the right way” nonsense, we’ve overthrown democratically elected leaders to install dictators simply because we believed it would benefit us. 
 

there’s nothing moralistic about it. It’s just modern colonization and global domination in a slightly different form to tamp down international criticism just enough to get away with it. 
 

it’s baffling this is lost on so many 

 

Just to be clear, we've gone from you arguing we didn't colonize those countries because they were too far away to, well we did colonize them, but it just took another form.

 

Today, cases were democracies were over thrown are recognized by most Americans as wrong and mistakes.

 

And realistically, they were done in secret and really then kept secret for decades and still only made into the public knowledge because of leaks not because we actually publicly admitted it for a reason.  (Partly because most Americans would have said at the time they were wrong and mistakes and would not have supported it.)

 

Again no comparison to what is and has happened between Israel and the Palestinians.  Israel is very open about what they have done and plan to do with Palestinian territory.

 

 

Edited April 27 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

4 hours ago, Skins24 said:

Yes it is fundamentally different as, at least WWII, had a definitive end. 

We did not start rebuilding as WWII was still going on.

 

At what point did Israel have any incentive, or even chance, to start creating a strong Palestinian state?

 

And if Israel wasn't going to do it, what was stopping all of their Arab "friends"?

 

Prior to the end of WWII we were aiding a large group of German refugees (fleeing the invasion by the Russians) in terms of food, shelter, and healthcare.

 

Israel has never done much to help Palestinian refugees and generally (including in this conflict) has restricted and obstructed the ability to aid refugees.

 

And we certainly started to try to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan before those wars ended.

 

Israel has a chance today to start building a strong Palestinian state by partnering with international organizations to aid Palestinian refugees from the current conflict and ones from other conflicts that live in the various Arab neighbors and get them homes in Palestine, Israel, or some other country.  Israel has the ability to create a strong Palestinian state today by not depending on cheap illegal but allowed Palestinian labor and create a system where Palestinians can work in Israel legally (as many do illegally) at would be their actual market value wages (as compared to Israelis).

 

They have the incentive to do so because if they don't want the land, they'd actually decrease their chances of getting attacked by Palestinians.  People that have money, property, wealth, etc. tend to be less likely to start a war and risk losing.

 

(I've made this point before.  That was supposed to the lesson from WWI/WWII.  After you win a war, you don't punish or even ignore the losers.  You help them rebuild and become successful because that's what actually decreases the having to fight them in another war.  Israel appears to have failed to learn that lesson.)

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.  That many (not all) of the Arab states are racist against Palestinians and see the Palestinians as a tool to achieve other objectives doesn't make it right or excuse the lack of help that Palestinians have gotten from Israel (and really the larger global community).

(Though their direct Arab neighbors like Lebanon and Jordan are relatively poor and don't have much means to help them today, so I don't think you can blame them too much for the situation now.)

[ixcuincle]

 

[PeterMP]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/27/opinions/yale-student-palestinian-protests-berlin/index.html

 

"Opinion: I’m a Jewish student at Yale. Here’s what everyone is getting wrong about the protests "

 

He's been a leader of the protests at Yale and even talks about people showing up and chanting things not supported by the organizers and makes them feel intimidated, but the importance of allowing the protest to continue.