Skins24 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 10 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Israel definitely oppresses Palestinians… Oh yeah, not disputing that at all. My response was to the reasons why Hamas attacked on Oct. 7th. Specifically Hamas, and not the Palestinians in general! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 Here's the plot. This is an escalation of a war going on for decades. Blaming Joe Biden is exactly what Iran, Russia and China want. College students should be smarter. 2022 - 30 Israelis and foreigners killed by terror and 205 Palestinians killed by IDF and settlers. Killing off people at a 5:1 rate tend to piss them off (even if it is drips and drops). So Palestinians launched October 7 attacks. Killing large amounts of Israelis reminds them of genocide, and all the fears they have about being surrounded by their hostile Arab neighbors. So, they escalated and then killed a boatload of Palestinians. I think it's horrible that all the adult male Palestines are being considered Hamas members. None of this are helping to bring the peace because both sides have legitimate issues. The protestors and counters should actually pracefully try to work out a solution. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 18 minutes ago, Fergasun said: Here's the plot. This is an escalation of a war going on for decades. Blaming Joe Biden is exactly what Iran, Russia and China want. College students should be smarter. Nothing works better in their favor than a divided America. And if this is still a big issue in November and works in his favor, they would be ecstatic with an easily manipulated Trump back in the White House. BLUF - there is nothing good coming from any of this 😩 The war, the protests, it's all....stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 I would actually argue both Bibi and Iran benefit from Trump.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCB Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Yeah, Trump literally told Bibi to "finish the job." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 6 hours ago, Skins24 said: And, a little push back on this. Not quite. There's only a slight case to be made there. And you are absolutely right, you have to look at all preceding actions as well. Hamas' founding wasn't necessarily born out of Israeli oppression. It's an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood and can really trace it's inception to '67, when the goal was simply - get rid of Israel. Nothing they have done (i.e., using Palestinians as human shields) really suggest they're doing this simply because of the plight of the Palestinians. The attack came as Israel was actively normalizing relations with it's neighbors and those that historically have hated them. UAE, Bahrain, even Sudan, and more importantly (for the sake of keeping Iran in check in the region) Saudi Arabia. Without a doubt, one of the goals was to disrupt this. Another of the goals, per Hamad's interview, was because - "Israel is a country that has no place on our land.......We must remove it because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation. We are not ashamed to say this." (The same guy in the same interview and in others also said the death of civilians during the attack was a mistake. He's also made the same claim in other interviews.) In an interview with the NYT, representatives said it was done to bring the Palestinian situation back to the world's attention. https://nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-gaza-war.html (This is consistent with derailing the peace negotiations between Israel in the other countries in the region.) On the day of the attack, Hamas released an audio tape of the guy that is considered their military expert and he cited a number of things, including the blockade of Gaza, things happening at the Al-Aqsa Mosque (which is what they've named the attack after) (where Israel has been doing more shutting down access to Muslims so that Jews can pray at the Temple Mount), attacks and killings of Palestinians by Israel and settlers, and that Israel wouldn't participate in any prisoner exchanges. https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/90836 Another Hamas leader said they'd lay down their arms for the creation of a Palestinian state along the '67 borders. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438 Edited May 2 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 14 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Another Hamas leader said they'd lay down their arms for the creation of a Palestinian state along the '67 borders. Don't believe that for a second. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 I think on some level you have to consider what Hamas’ power would be if the Palestinians were able to accept some sort of deal. Their support is in some part derived from the situation. I’m sure there is some significant % of supporters that would stop supporting then if there was something like a deal to the ‘67 borders. It complicates things that they’re also the “government” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 3 hours ago, @DCGoldPants said: Don't believe that for a second. I'll address this because @tshile essentially said before that he thought I was wrong for having a little hope that it is true (not quite his words but the general idea of his words). I think there is some chance that it is true (at some level). It is somewhat consistent with the new charter put out in 2008 and some agreements that they have with Fatah. So it is something that was out there before the latest attack and latest western pressure. I don't think that's something that's winning them support with their base. The "destroy Israel" interview that @Skins24 posted was the red meat for their base (an interview in Arabic on Lebanese tv). So I don't think they are doing it because it makes them more popular at "home". So why have they now for about 20 years putting out that they'd support a Palestinian state along the '67 borders? It hasn't stopped Israeli plans/expansion. Israel hasn't seemed to change or care one iota. It didn't cause the west to treat them better. (We didn't take them off the terrorist watch list or lift any sanctions against them for doing it.) We don't seem have cared at all. If there was any benefit for Hamas in putting that idea out there, I don't know what it has been. It seems somewhat possible it is because at least some people in the organization support that idea. (Now a few things: 1. It is possible they are lying and sometimes people lie for reasons that aren't very reasonable or very logical. It is possible that they've lied for some reason that doesn't make much sense. 2. It is possible (and I'd argue even likely) not everybody in Hamas agrees on what their goals should be. It is possible that some people would settle for a country based on the '67 borders and some wouldn't and would continue to attack. It is possible that their would be some sort of organizational split if Israel agreed to a country based on the '67 borders. Going back to the IRA, similar things happened at different times with the IRA. And certainly some Palestinians would continue to attack Israel. Organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad's officially stated objectives are still destroy Israel and kill the Jews, so if "Hamas" made peace with Israel the more militant people associated with Hamas would have already existing organizations that they could join if they didn't keep the Hamas name itself.) 3 hours ago, tshile said: I think on some level you have to consider what Hamas’ power would be if the Palestinians were able to accept some sort of deal. Their support is in some part derived from the situation. I’m sure there is some significant % of supporters that would stop supporting then if there was something like a deal to the ‘67 borders. It complicates things that they’re also the “government” Arafat kept power after the PLO then becoming the PA made peace with Israel and recognized Israel. Yes he lost support (including losing Gaza to Hamas). But that's more an indication of the general situation than any real entity where enough people don't want peace. But he also kept a lot of power and some sense gained more by gaining international acceptance. I don't know, but it is possible he ended up better off. You'd hope the same can/could be true. (Which then ties into my other post, if they would lose support for making an agreement based on the '67 borders, then aren't they losing support for suggesting they would? And then why are they doing it? Because just suggesting they would isn't getting them international recognition.) Edited May 3 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 3 hours ago, @DCGoldPants said: Don't believe that for a second. I kind of do believe it. It gets rid of a huge motivation for the people who decide to join Hamas. Assuming Israel respects the border. the problem is that it is probably the case that soon after the agreement some hard liner Hamas members were would lash out at Israel as lone wolfs and the second that happened Israel would use it to undo any deal. you can create a Palestinian state but you can’t create legitimacy for it or the societal order that would enable it to police itself. Edited May 3 by CousinsCowgirl84 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 https://www.thedailybeast.com/morning-joe-scolds-stupid-msnbc-viewers-who-back-campus-protests Scarborough further lectured anti-war protesters on the correct way to demonstrate, name-checking Martin Luther King Jr. in the process. “There are ways to do this that help the cause… without aiding the worst elements in American politics,” he added. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Lol the same Joe Scarborough what recently said it was a “beautiful thing to watch.” when the cops started cracking down on protestor? **** him. 🤷🏻♂️ A future look at Joe on his deathbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 5 Author Share Posted May 5 "I care more about my peace than the people dying in Gaza." I don't know how effective protests have been, but peaceful protests are a bedrock of American democracy. And violently cracking down on them are a bedrock of American "anti-democracy". Only 25% of Americans viewed the civil rights protestors positively in the 1960s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, Captain Wiggles said: Lol the same Joe Scarborough what recently said it was a “beautiful thing to watch.” when the cops started cracking down on protestor? **** him. 🤷🏻♂️ A future look at Joe on his deathbed. He's on the liberal msnbc what's with the hate. 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Netanyahu calls Al Jazeera an ‘incitement channel’ as it is shut down in Israel. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/05/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas/israels-prime-minister-has-had-a-tense-relationship-with-the-network?smid=nytcore-android-share Quote Israel’s communications minister, Shlomo Karhi, said in a video statement that Al Jazeera “will no longer broadcast here in Israel, and its equipment will be confiscated.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 18 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: He's on the liberal msnbc what's with the hate. 🤣 Joe claims he doesn't want Trump reelected correct? Maybe he should have thought about that **** eight years ago when he n his wife were giving Trump non stop airtime on their bull**** morning show. Oh wait they still give Trump plenty of free advertising daily cuz it moves the needle. Once again **** him. Disgraced congressman from Florida making millions of dollars while laughing all the way to the bank. 🤷🏻♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Oh n MSNBC ain't liberal. It's corporate. Theys so liberal they employ Micheal Steele, Joe Scarborough, and Nicole Wallace. All of which are former Republicans and featured daily for countless hours on end. Laughable that they're considered liberal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 53 minutes ago, ixcuincle said: He's on the liberal msnbc what's with the hate. 🤣 He's a republican, ran and won as one from Florida several times: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Scarborough Not that I care, but just because he's in a liberal news channel doesn't mean he's a liberal Edited May 5 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 I wish there was a channel just for me and my kind….Miata Libs. Its like Easy Rider but with heated seats and a vigorous rate of return on my Vanguard accounts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 minute ago, Captain Wiggles said: Oh n MSNBC ain't liberal. It's corporate. Theys so liberal they employ Micheal Steele, Joe Scarborough, and Nicole Wallace. All of which are former Republicans and featured daily for countless hours on end. Laughable that they're considered liberal This feels really OT. Having said that, MSNBC is absolutely a liberal propaganda engine and Fox News is totally a conservative propaganda machine. Their anchors go on rants and tangets all the time you'd totally expect given their target audience. My parents watch MSNBC all the time, it's nauseating now. Bringing people on from different ideologies to appear balanced doesn't change that. Ironic given our "ally" jus kicked an entire news organization out the country they didn't like, bringing this back on topic. It's not like what's happened to our news media doesn't need to be addressed here, but what Israel did is not the way. It's a red flag to where they're going and who they really are versus what we want to believe they are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 8 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said: I wish there was a channel just for me and my kind….Miata Libs. Its like Easy Rider but with heated seats and a vigorous rate of return on my Vanguard accounts. I think you've just found your true calling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Hamas attacks Israel-Gaza border crossing as cease-fire talks continue https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hamas-attacks-israel-gaza-border-crossing-cease-fire-talks-continue/ Hamas militants attacked Israel's main crossing point for delivering humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip on Sunday, dealing a blow to the ongoing crease-fire efforts that appear at an impasse with both sides blaming each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said: I wish there was a channel just for me and my kind….Miata Libs. Its like Easy Rider but with heated seats and a vigorous rate of return on my Vanguard accounts. Easy Rider, with amplified road noise and a Schwinn suspension. Edited May 5 by SkinsFTW 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Rafah assault looks imminent as hope fades for Israel-Hamas cease-fire https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-no-cease-fire-rafah-ground-offensive-palestinians-evacuate/ Israel's military ordered Palestinians in the eastern part of the Gaza Strip city of Rafah to evacuate Monday ahead of a ground offensive long promised by the Jewish state's leaders. The message was delivered with fliers, phone calls, messages and media broadcasts in Arabic after a weekend that saw hope for a new cease-fire in the seven-month Israel-Hamas war dashed yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 I can't find it at the moment but I heard Biden stopped an ammo shipment to Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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