Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Skins24]

6 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I have expounded.

 

That was your initial post.

 

"Also, they pretty much are still calling for the elimination of Isreal. Basically, the big difference between the first and second charters is that instead of the elimination of all Jews, they'll just settle for Israel..."

 

That statement isn't true.

It's not true because you say it's not true?

 

A quick 5 second google search will show you that nothing I have said is in contradiction to Hamas' words, actions, and the charter.

 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

@PeterMP

reading your posts, you do an awful lot of extending benefit of the doubt to Hamas. 

 

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post before.   I had to switch things.

 

From my perspective, it would be useful to know in what way I'm extending them the benefit of the doubt.  I don't see myself extending them any real benefit of the doubt.  (Admittedly, I also extend Israel very little to no benefit of the doubt.)

 

You want to say that you think Hamas is a violent, anti-Semitic, terrorist, lying, POS, no good, organization and don't think they will ever be part of a successful peace process, I'm not really going to argue with you.

 

(I think saying that there is no way that Hamas will ever be part of a successful peace process is too far.  None of us know the future and similar terrorist organizations have changed in the past.  But if you don't think/believe they can, I'm not going to disagree.  And really, I think it is unlikely myself.)

Edited April 30 by PeterMP

[tshile]

@PeterMP

I’m speaking to the notion that them removing explicit language about destruction of Israel, means there’s wiggle room to believe they don’t still think that. That’s all. I think there’s a leap being made there - but just my opinion. 
 

While I do believe the description of Hamas you have above - I do recognize it’s foolish to claim they cannot ever be part of negotiating a peace deal. Your IRA example is a perfect illustration of why that would be foolish. 
 

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@tshile and @bearrock

 

I respect yall trying to clarify your stances and reason with me and other in this thread as it's evolved.

 

I feel like taking a breather and coming back to address your points.

 

In the meantime, I say we jus cut through all of it real quick and ask a yes or no question:

 

Should US stop giving military aid to Israel?

 

There are a lot of different protests right now and understandably a lot of different opinions in how we got to this point.

 

At some point though...where do we go from here?  I respect the need to clarify why to yes or no. Or even clarify conditions.

 

I'm at a Yes right now. 

 

I'll be back later, I need to focus on other things go make sure my emotions don't get the best of me and I'll still make sense where I stand on this complicated matter. 

 

Grey as any issue I've ever seen in a world that tries too hard to be black or white.

No. Israel is the only real ally it has in the Middle East. They have made security guarantees to Israel. Walking away from our responsibilities in Israel would be much worse for America than walking away from Ukraine. And would be a huge win for Russia/Iran axis.

 

There are other, effective, less damaging ways to send a clear message to Israel. Those sanctions we are considering would be a good start. 

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post before.   I had to switch things.

 

From my perspective, it would be useful to know in what way I'm extending them the benefit of the doubt.  I don't see myself extending them any real benefit of the doubt.  (Admittedly, I also extend Israel very little to no benefit of the doubt.)

 

You want to say that you think Hamas is a violent, anti-Semitic, terrorist, lying, POS, no good, organization and don't think they will ever be part of a successful peace process, I'm not really going to argue with you.

 

(I think saying that there is no way that Hamas will ever be part of a successful peace process is too far.  None of us know the future and similar terrorist organizations have changed in the past.  But if you don't think/believe they can, I'm not going to disagree.  And really, I think it is unlikely myself.)

If Hamas was interested in being part of the political solution they wouldn’t have launched their attack on oct 7

[Barry.Randolphe]

5 hours ago, ixcuincle said:

 

go off queen

 

yaaassss

 

 

 

This one-sided attempt at painting the Pro-Palestinian side as militant and anti-semitic and the Pro-Israeli as peacefull is bull****. There are plenty of videos like this and worse coming from the protests:

 

 

 

Edited April 30 by Barry.Randolphe

[CousinsCowgirl84]

8 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

This one-sided attempt at painting the Pro-Palestinian side as militant and anti-semitic and the Pro-Israeli as peacefull is bull****. There are plenty of videos like this and worse coming from the protests:

 

 

 

Well, all of the pro Hamas protesters are pro rapist so I guess they are equal there. Let me know when she barricades herself into buildings…

[TradeTheBeal!]

We’ve reached the “please send snacks” phase of the occupation in record time!

 

 

[PeterMP]

52 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

No. Israel is the only real ally it has in the Middle East. They have made security guarantees to Israel. Walking away from our responsibilities in Israel would be much worse for America than walking away from Ukraine. And would be a huge win for Russia/Iran axis.

 

There are other, effective, less damaging ways to send a clear message to Israel. Those sanctions we are considering would be a good start. 

If Hamas was interested in being part of the political solution they wouldn’t have launched their attack on oct 7

 

There were numerous IRA attacks through the decades that you could look at and say if they were interested in a political solution they wouldn't have done them.

 

But in the end, the IRA was part of a political solution.  The PLO has a history of attacks and today it has morphed into the PA and lead by a man that nobody doubts supports a nonviolent solution the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

 

I don't consider Israel a real ally (I can go through the history if you want).  Also, I don't see not giving the aid as walking away from them.  We don't just give most of our other allies huge amounts of military aid.  We often sell them weapons and things, but we don't just give them things like we have Israel.  Places like Japan and S. Korea pay to help offset troops stationed there.  Things like that.

 

They can be ally and we can include them in our defense umbrella in a manner that is more consistent with our other allies and not just give them huge amounts of aid.

 

Also, the war in Ukraine and the war in Gaza aren't really comparable.  Ukraine is pretty literally likely fighting for its existence.  Hamas can't destroy Israel.  The effect of cutting off aid to Israel and the Ukraine aren't comparable and that has to be considered.

 

(With all that said, I don't think we should just cut off aid.  I think aid should come with conditions (e.g. freezing settlements into the future for some period of time, etc.)

Edited April 30 by PeterMP

[tshile]

41 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

This one-sided attempt at painting the Pro-Palestinian side as militant and anti-semitic and the Pro-Israeli as peacefull is bull****

To be clear I’m not a person who thinks any of this is one sided. 
 

anything good or bad you can say about one, can be said about the other. The details, or dates, may differ but the core behind it all is the same. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

14 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

There were numerous IRA attacks through the decades that you could look at and say if they were interested in a political solution they wouldn't have done them.

 

But in the end, the IRA was part of a political solution.  The PLO has a history of attacks and today it has morphed into the PA and lead by a man that nobody doubts supports a nonviolent solution the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

Post rules not exceptions.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

If Hamas was interested in being part of the political solution they wouldn’t have launched their attack on oct 7

Little push back on this one. As someone who thinks Israel is justified in what they’re currently doing (I define “justified” as believing we would react the same way, therefore I don’t want to be a hypocrite, while recognizing what is happening is awful)

 

As much as I think you have to park history if the goal is peace - you can’t look at things in a vacuum. You can’t look at one action and ignore the preceding actions. Hamas didn’t only do it because they believe in the destruction of Israel and the Jews - they did it because they’re actively oppressed by Israel. 
 

which is to say nothing of the rightness, wrongness, or even the good decision making behind the attacks. 
 

but putting it the way you did just there, is like pretending Al qaeda conducted 9/11 simply because they hate the United States. They did it because we constantly screw around in the region and support Israel. Doesn’t change how awful 9/11 was - but it doesn’t do anyone any good to ignore motive and reasoning. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

To be clear I’m not a person who thinks any of this is one sided. 
 

anything good or bad you can say about one, can be said about the other. The details, or dates, may differ but the core behind it all is the same. 

I think someone here posted that it doesn’t do any good to look at the conflict through a moral lense. I tend to agree.

 

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

There were numerous IRA attacks through the decades that you could look at and say if they were interested in a political solution they wouldn't have done them.

 

The IRA and England had much more in common with one another than Palestinians and Jews have.

 

 

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I don't consider Israel a real ally (I can go through the history if you want). 

 

In the Middle East? Who is more of a real ally in the Middle East than Israel?

 

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

Also, I don't see not giving the aid as walking away from them.  We don't just give most of our other allies huge amounts of military aid.  We often sell them weapons and things, but we don't just give them things like we have Israel.  Places like Japan and S. Korea pay to help offset troops stationed there.  Things like that.

 

Israel pays too.

 

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Also, the war in Ukraine and the war in Gaza aren't really comparable.  Ukraine is pretty literally likely fighting for its existence.  Hamas can't destroy Israel.  The effect of cutting off aid to Israel and the Ukraine aren't comparable and that has to be considered.

 

You can certainly compare the strategic impact ending aid to either on of them on the United States. 

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

Little push back on this one. As someone who thinks Israel is justified in what they’re currently doing (I define “justified” as believing we would react the same way, therefore I don’t want to be a hypocrite, while recognizing what is happening is awful)

 

 

I didn’t say they were justified in everything they are doing. But Hamas is not interested in a political solution.

 

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I think someone here posted that it doesn’t do any good to look at the conflict through a moral lense. I tend to agree.

 

 

 

It wasn’t me who said it that way, but I do agree. 
 

the notion of morals and war crimes and international laws with war is silly. We seem to be the only nation actively involved in conflicts that even tries. The reality is when push comes to shove there are no ****ing rules. People will do whatever it takes to survive. Not to mention how piss poorly these so-called rules are enforced. 
 

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

I didn’t say they were justified in everything they are doing. But Hamas is not interested in a political solution.

 

That’s fine - my point is that specific type of responses missed the mark (in my opinion)

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

In the Middle East? Who is more of a real ally in the Middle East than Israel?

 

 

Israel pays too..

 

 

I would say we have no real allies in the Middle East.

 

I guess if phrased it as that Israel is our best ally in the Middle East, I might agree.

 

Not like other countries.  We give them more aid than any other country.  And it isn't close.  And then we give a bunch of aid to Egypt which we're doing for Isreal.

 

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/

 

 

Edited April 30 by PeterMP

[tshile]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/30/netanyahu-vows-to-raid-rafah-with-or-without-hostage-deal?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1
 

so that’s not good for renewed peace talks 

 

gonna get real nuts if they actually invade Rafah 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

33 minutes ago, tshile said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/30/netanyahu-vows-to-raid-rafah-with-or-without-hostage-deal?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1
 

so that’s not good for renewed peace talks 

 

gonna get real nuts if they actually invade Rafah 

They should and be done with it. And as soon as they are done in Rafah they should go into Lebanon and fight hezbolah back to the UN mandated lines. Once that is done a UN peacekeeping force ideally would be brought into to ensure hezbollah doesn’t venture south. The immediate/concurrently a Palestinian State should be established which gives a little more of what the Palestinians want borderwise, and Israel should immediately do away with all the settlements they have in West Bank.

 

 

But that’s got **** all chance of happening, so maybe going into Rafah isn’t a good idea after all.

[Barry.Randolphe]

3 hours ago, tshile said:

To be clear I’m not a person who thinks any of this is one sided. 
 

anything good or bad you can say about one, can be said about the other. The details, or dates, may differ but the core behind it all is the same. 

 

I'm not saying you, I'm really referring to the media and how it is reported. It is frustrating and par for the course for the media to show the stupid college kid or anarchist saying inflammatory things, but then not showing the reciprocal on the other side - extremist Zionists that show up to try and agitate and get a physical response to what was mostly just a bunch of college kids sitting around a courtyard trying to bring awareness to what they felt was important

[CousinsCowgirl84]

31 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

I'm not saying you, I'm really referring to the media and how it is reported. It is frustrating and par for the course for the media to show the stupid college kid or anarchist saying inflammatory things, but then not showing the reciprocal on the other side - extremist Zionists that show up to try and agitate and get a physical response to what was mostly just a bunch of college kids sitting around a courtyard trying to bring awareness to what they felt was important

Can you show me reciprocal extremist zionist taking over universities, taking down American flags and putting up terrorist flags in their place, smashing windows? Blocking traffic?

 

The protests aren’t the same. The two sides aren’t acting the same. This is a sad whataboutist attempt at justifying/normalizing the actions of destructive protestors.

 

The media is showing what both sides are doing, how do you think you got the video you posted? You didn’t tape it, did you?
 

 

Someone stole a candy bar by putting it in their pocket and another person stole a car by smashing its window in, but you’re trying to tell me it’s the same crime. Technically true, but not really.

Edited May 1 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Destino]

I’m not sure the students deserve so much heat. I think the schools need to examine who on their staff is encouraging these protests. Young people are impressionable. They want to save the world. When you’ve got Marxist language flying all over the place on campus framing everything in simplistic oppressor and oppressed terms and urging students to fight for a liberated future, it feels off to then punish students when they act along those ideals. If you don’t want extreme left protests on your campus, stop hiring people that preach it from positions of authority.

 

[Barry.Randolphe]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Can you show me reciprocal extremist zionist taking over universities, taking down American flags and putting up terrorist flags in their place, smashing windows? Blocking traffic?

 

The protests aren’t the same. The two sides aren’t acting the same. This is a sad whataboutist attempt at justifying/normalizing the actions of destructive protestors.

 

The media is showing what both sides are doing, how do you think you got the video you posted? You didn’t tape it, did you?
 

 

Someone stole a candy bar by putting it in their pocket and another person stole a car by smashing its window in, but you’re trying to tell me it’s the same crime. Technically true, but not really.

 

Did you not read my last sentence? What you're seeing now are some anarchists co-opting the movement and stupid college kids responding to an overly physical police response. It is like the BLM protests all over again since the kids are going to dig in now. If they just let them sit in the courtyard and sing kumbaya together until finals were over, this largely wouldn't be happening.

 

2 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

I'm not saying you, I'm really referring to the media and how it is reported. It is frustrating and par for the course for the media to show the stupid college kid or anarchist saying inflammatory things, but then not showing the reciprocal on the other side - extremist Zionists that show up to try and agitate and get a physical response to what was mostly just a bunch of college kids sitting around a courtyard trying to bring awareness to what they felt was important

 

and no, the media is not showing the counter protestors on the Israeli side. The video I posted (and others) are coming from on the ground footage.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

58 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

Did you not read my last sentence? What you're seeing now are some anarchists co-opting the movement and stupid college kids responding to an overly physical police response. It is like the BLM protests all over again since the kids are going to dig in now. If they just let them sit in the courtyard and sing kumbaya together until finals were over, this largely wouldn't be happening.

 

that’s your opinion, but the president and other people in the intelligence community say that there is no evidence of bad actors. But even if your right, your still wrong because the protests are not the same/similar.

 

58 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

and no, the media is not showing the counter protestors on the Israeli side. The video I posted (and others) are coming from on the ground footage.

 

social media you meant to say?

Edited May 1 by CousinsCowgirl84

[ixcuincle]

Police clear protesters from occupied Columbia University building https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nypd-moves-in-columbia-university-student-protests/

 

 

 

Columbia University protesters were taken into custody late Tuesday night after the school president asked the NYPD to clear them from campus.

 

Police set up a massive presence outside the university before officers began moving in around 9 p.m.

 

A dramatic scene unfolded as the NYPD brought in a large vehicle with an extendable ramp to enter a second-floor window of Hamilton Hall, which schools officials said had been occupied by protesters. Around 9:30 p.m., dozens of officers wearing helmets began to enter the building through a window they had pried open. Additional crowds of officers entered campus on foot through the main gate.

 

 

[Destino]

Horseshoe theory in action.

 

[Skins24]

On 4/30/2024 at 5:42 PM, tshile said:

Little push back on this one. As someone who thinks Israel is justified in what they’re currently doing (I define “justified” as believing we would react the same way, therefore I don’t want to be a hypocrite, while recognizing what is happening is awful)

 

As much as I think you have to park history if the goal is peace - you can’t look at things in a vacuum. You can’t look at one action and ignore the preceding actions. Hamas didn’t only do it because they believe in the destruction of Israel and the Jews - they did it because they’re actively oppressed by Israel.

And, a little push back on this.

Not quite. There's only a slight case to be made there. And you are absolutely right, you have to look at all preceding actions as well. Hamas' founding wasn't necessarily born out of Israeli oppression. It's an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood and can really trace it's inception to '67, when the goal was simply - get rid of Israel. Nothing they have done (i.e., using Palestinians as human shields) really suggest they're doing this simply because of the plight of the Palestinians.

 

The attack came as Israel was actively normalizing relations with it's neighbors and those that historically have hated them. UAE, Bahrain, even Sudan, and more importantly (for the sake of keeping Iran in check in the region) Saudi Arabia. Without a doubt, one of the goals was to disrupt this.

 

Another of the goals, per Hamad's interview, was because - "Israel is a country that has no place on our land.......We must remove it because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation. We are not ashamed to say this."

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Skins24 said:

And, a little push back on this.

Not quite. There's only a slight case to be made there..

 

Israel definitely oppresses Palestinians…

13 hours ago, Destino said:

Horseshoe theory in action.

 

Hmm, seems we have lost the plot.