Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Barry.Randolphe]

the whole "controversy" around the phrase "from the river to the sea" is just typical Israeli gaslighting

[tshile]

19 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Just to be clear, we've gone from you arguing we didn't colonize those countries because they were too far away to, well we did colonize them, but it just took another form

I believe that I said was that we didn’t take their land 

[Fergasun]

@ixcuincle

@Cooked Crack

 

Ultimately, these are anti-war protests.  Is all criticism of a war being prosecuted by Israel "antisemitic"?  One of the protests point that these pro-Israeli people don't see the irony of their discomfort in the face of fears of a Gaza genocide and in the face of what has been done.  Seems like the entire population of Palestine has been made refugees.  This seems like one of the points the protestors have.

 

I just watched a Press Conference from Columbia Jewish community (2 or 3 days ago) and they only referenced October 7.  When asked about Jewish voices standing with Pro-Palestine groups, one of the students said, "Take them as seriously as we take 'Blacks for Trump' or 'Gays for Trump' "  That was pretty savage. 

 

Regardless, it can't just be about October 7 and "40,000 vs. 1000".  No one seems to be fighting for the peace in that region.  The current conflict is absolutely not helpful to longterm stability in the region. 

 

I liked this clip between Columbia students:

 

Fairly certain that doesn't get the attention of the ones you posted and even that 10 minutes wss just them having empathy for each other.  Would like to see a longer discussion and debate about how to fix / solve things.

[tshile]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:29 PM, PeterMP said:

This is moving the goal post.  The point was that what we did in Germany, Japan, tried to in Afghanistan, etc. is fundamentally different than what Israel has tried to do.

You’ve hijacked the conversation to try to make this point arguing against no one

 

the original comment, which was by me, was about how we would respond to Mexico (an adjacent country), an idea you disagreed with and then for some reason decided to claim you won’t argue about a hypothetical future but then tried to back up your claim I’m wrong by pointing to behavior in countries on the other side of the world

 

which you’ve now turned into this notion you’re on a crusade to prove how the US handled things pose ww2 is fundamentally different than what Israel is doing, arguing against a claim no one’s made and you’ve just twisted the conversation into 

[Fergasun]

45 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

the whole "controversy" around the phrase "from the river to the sea" is just typical Israeli gaslighting

Ehh, I think it's debatable. It's certainly better than "Death to Israel".

 

Here are some better chants. Since this is largely a PR exercise.  

 

"From the river to the sea.  Arab and Jew live in peace." 

 

"Drop your guns, melt your swords.  Choose peace not war."  

 

"Equal justice, equal rights.  Unite your land, peace tonight."

 

"We love Muslims, we love Jews.  Fight for peace, all of you!"

 

"Stop your violence, stop your hate.  Join your hands and cooperate!"

 

"Two to tango, two to dance. Stop your fighting, give peace a chance!"

 

Wait.  Wait.  Your telling me that since the Free Palestine movement has largely funded by pro-Arab groups, there could be an anti-Zionist biaa?  And the pro-Israeli groups are funded by Zionists who may have a more radical definition of "Zionism" (such as Israel can never do wrong)?  

 

Sorry, my delusions are just as silly has hoping that the anti-Trump movement takes off. 

 

"Unite the left, unite the right. Trump in jail, lets start tonight!"

[CousinsCowgirl84]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:48 PM, PeterMP said:

 

 

 

They've occupied Gaza before.  They did not rebuild it or try to create a government for Palestinians.  This is not comparable.

 

 

 

 

well, right now Israel and the US are building infrastructure in Gaza to deliver aid everyone agrees is desperately needed and Hamas attacked it. You can’t help people who don’t want to be helped.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

well, right now Israel and the US are building infrastructure in Gaza to deliver aid everyone agrees is desperately needed and Hamas attacked it. You can’t help people who don’t want to be helped.

 

Assuming you mean this:

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say/

 

You've got your facts not quite right.

 

Nobody has claimed credit for it, so it isn't clear that Hamas attacked it. Hamas has publicly said that they won't attack unless it becomes used to house foreign troops.

 

We don't know if the attack was intentional or not.  For all we know it could have been Israel.

 

Now, there is some complexity because our military is putting it together (as they're really the only people that have the ability/resources to do so), but at least publicly that doesn't seem to be enough to cause a Hamas attack.

 

In addition, Israel is claiming they are going to have to put troops there for security (which seems likely that it will trigger a Hamas attack).

 

Which really underlies the larger issue of the lack of historical aid (even humanitarian aid) that the Israelis have given (and in some cases even allowed) to be given to the Palestinians that the they don't trust Israel (and at some by extension us).  You've got decades of mistrust built up and Hamas sees what I hope is a good faith effort on our part to deliver aid is a cover for the Israeli military to conduct operations in Gaza.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Assuming you mean this:

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/04/25/us-led-gaza-humanitarian-aid-pier-comes-under-fire-un-officials-say/

 

You've got your facts not quite right.

 

Nobody has claimed credit for it, so it isn't clear that Hamas attacked it. Hamas has publicly said that they won't attack unless it becomes used to house foreign troops.

 

 

The US assessment is that Hamas attacked it. Its a little rich your willing to take Hamas’ word though. Not intentional? Grasping at straws?

 

Did you even read what you posted?

 

“High-ranking Hamas political official Khalil al-Hayya said the group would consider Israeli forces — or forces from any other country — stationed by the pier to guard it as “an occupying force and aggression,” and that they would resist it.”

 

 

 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

The US assessment is that Hamas attacked it. Its a little rich your willing to take Hamas’ word though. Not intentional? Grasping at straws?

 

Did you even read what you posted?

 

“High-ranking Hamas political official Khalil al-Hayya said the group would consider Israeli forces — or forces from any other country — stationed by the pier to guard it as “an occupying force and aggression,” and that they would resist it.”

 

 

 

 

 

Yes.  That's why I said:

 

"Hamas has publicly said that they won't attack unless it becomes used to house foreign troops." and talked about the presence of Israeli troops likely triggering an attack and Israel saying they would have to have troops present for security.

 

But Hamas also knows the US military is putting it together, and they haven't said that's enough for them to attack it.  They've publicly taken a stand.  Their public stand could have been the building of it by the US military was a non-starter and that they'd attack it.  Our policy has been there will be no US troops in Gaza.  Admittedly, I am reading between the lines some.

 

Where do you see the US assessment is that it was Hamas?

 

Are you getting your news from things like Daily Mail?

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13354441/Hamas-fires-MORTARS-pier-built-army-coast-Gaza-worrying-signs-troops-targeted.html

 

No where credible is reporting the US has said Hamas. Here's the Washington Post.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/25/gaza-floating-pier/

 

Here's the Times of Israel:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-mortar-fired-at-under-construction-gaza-aid-pier-as-un-officials-toured-site/

 

Nothing coming out of the US government that I can find says Hamas.

 

(Though, it is also clear here that Israeli troops were present which seem to be consistent with Hamas' statement of what would trigger an attack (and also consistent with my other post).  Hamas isn't going to support aid coming in through the Israeli military.  They've made that pretty clear and given the history, it isn't really that shocking.  Hamas doesn't trust Israel and especially not the Israeli military.  They aren't going to believe that the Israeli military is functioning in a good faith and benign effort to help bring in aid even if they are.

 

I'm not saying that Hamas didn't attack it.  And based on reports of Israeli troops being present, it is possible they did.  But that isn't what is being reported by any credible sources.)

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

Yes.  That's why I said:

 

"Hamas has publicly said that they won't attack unless it becomes used to house foreign troops." and talked about the presence of Israeli troops likely triggering an attack and Israel saying they would have to have troops present for security.

 

This is a bull**** response.  They said they would attack any soldiers stationed near the peer. It’s impossible to distribute aid without people on the ground. Hamas is working to make it impossible to get aid into Gaza.
 

 

Edited April 28 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

This is a bull**** response.  They said they would attack any soldiers stationed near the peer. It’s impossible to distribute aid without people on the ground. Hamas is working to make it impossible to get aid into Gaza.
 

 

 

Why do you need soldiers to deliver aid?

 

The World Central Kitchen was doing it without soldiers and still would be if the Israelis hadn't attacked their caravan.

 

People yes.  But why soldiers?

 

There are aid organizations that work in Gaza without being directly guarded by the Israeli military.  Why does the Israeli military need to be involved in this case?

 

Do you really not see why Hamas doesn't want Israelis soldiers in Gaza even under the claim that they are there to deliver aid?

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[CousinsCowgirl84]

16 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Why do you need soldiers to deliver aid?

 

Thats who is building the dock in order to provide aid into Gaza. No other country stepped up to help Palestinians by providing the necessary security so Israel has to do it. Even the Palestinians most sympathetic allies passed on helping them.

 

Things in Gaza are either desperate, or they aren’t. Gaza needs aid, or it doesn’t. Hamas cares about Palestinians, or they don’t.
 

Hamas wants to put up a lot of barriers to try to get aid to the people it is pretending to protect the interests of. Gaza is small, surrounded by Israel and water. The combined force of US and Israeli military dwarfs whatever resistance Hamas could put up.

 

Trying to act like Hamas has some legitimate security concerns over the dock is pathetic. Hamas has no legitimacy. You’re suggesting we should consider the feelings of rapists. I’ll pass.

Edited April 28 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PeterMP]

13 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

Thats who is building the dock in order to provide aid into Gaza.

 

Things in Gaza are either desperate, or they aren’t. Gaza needs aid, or it doesn’t. Hamas wants to put up a lot of barriers to try to get aid to the people it is pretending to protect the interests of. Gaza is small, surrounded by Israel and water. The combined force of US and Israeli military dwarfs whatever resistance Hamas could put up.

 

Trying to act like Hamas has some legitimate security concerns over the dock is pathetic. Hamas has no legitimacy. You’re suggesting we should consider the feelings of rapists. I’ll pass.

 

It does not appear that the US military is going to get directly involved in Gaza, so what Hamas could do against them seems irrelevant.

 

Since Hamas is the major Palestinian organization in Gaza and can make delivering aid very difficult if not impossible, then yes you need to consider them if you want to help innocent people in Gaza.

 

They haven't said they would attack people building the dock.  And that doesn't appear to be what happened.  The dock wasn't damaged in the attack.

 

Israel isn't saying their military needs to be there to build the dock.  I believe we're mostly doing that and have said we won't put any soldiers on Gaza soil.  The Israeli's are saying their military needs to be there to guard the dock.  Not build it.

 

Now, you're just making stuff up.

 

But yes Hamas is putting up barriers to get aid in.  And so is Israel.

 

Hamas doesn't want Israeli troops in Gaza for any reason, even if they are involved in delivering aid.  What is Israel's excuse?

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[Barry.Randolphe]

The ****ing pier is being built because the Israelis and Zionists are blocking aid from entering Gaza....there wouldn't be a need for a damn pier if they'd stop indiscriminately killing UN Aid workers and using human shields to block the deliveries

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141#:~:text=Israeli forces are blocking aid,in October%2C as the UN

 

Quote

Israeli forces are blocking aid deliveries into famine-stricken northern Gaza as the five-month-long war grinds on despite recent strong demands from the top UN court and the Security Council for open aid access into the enclave and for a temporary ceasefire and the return of all hostages taken in October, as the UN plans an assessment mission into Al-Shifa Hospital, which had been occupied by Israeli troops for two weeks.

More than a dozen Palestinians have been killed related to airdrops by multiple nations who are trying to deliver desperately needed aid in the face of Israel’s slow walking food shipments at border crossings into Gaza, according to news reports. 

 

The victims reportedly either died by drowning while trying to retrieve food packages from the sea or were fatally struck by falling boxes of aid.

At the same time, reports from UN agencies on the ground in Gaza indicate a continuation of airstrikes and attacks.

 

This comes alongside ever louder calls for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and for Israel to comply with both a Security Council resolution for a cessation of hostilities during Ramadan, which ends on 10 April, and the International Court of Justice (ICJ) orders last Friday, asking the country to respect its obligations as a signatory of the Genocide Convention and open border crossings to allow sufficient aid into the enclave.

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

 

They haven't said they would attack people building the dock.  And that doesn't appear to be what happened.  The dock wasn't damaged in the attack.

 

yes they did. I quoted them where they said exactly that.

 

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Israel isn't saying their military needs to be there to build the dock.  I believe we're mostly doing that and have said we won't put any soldiers on Gaza soil.  The Israeli's are saying their military needs to be there to guard the dock.  Not build it.

 

you need people to move the aid from the docks to the land and supply it to the refugees. Which would be a lot easier if Hamas wasn’t threatening to attack it.

 

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

Now, you're just making stuff up.

 

But yes Hamas is putting up barriers to get aid in.  And so is Israel.

 

Hamas doesn't want Israeli troops in Gaza for any reason, even if they are involved in delivering aid.  What is Israel's excuse?

Israel has a legitimate reason to be in Gaza. Hamas has no legitimate reason to exist. (Unless you think the Palestinians support Hamas)

 

Hamas is supposed to be helping/protecting Palestinians. Palestinians voted them into power to do that. Hamas isn’t even trying to do that.
 

Surely even someone who sympathizes with terrorists can see the difference in responsibility between Hamas as an “elected government” and Israel for the people of Gaza.

53 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

The ****ing pier is being built because the Israelis and Zionists are blocking aid from entering Gaza....there wouldn't be a need for a damn pier if they'd stop indiscriminately killing UN Aid workers and using human shields to block the deliveries

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141#:~:text=Israeli forces are blocking aid,in October%2C as the UN

 

 

Thr same UN workers who were found to members of Hamas?

[PeterMP]

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

yes they did. I quoted them where they said exactly that.

 

 

“High-ranking Hamas political official Khalil al-Hayya said the group would consider Israeli forces — or forces from any other country — stationed by the pier to guard it as “an occupying force and aggression,” and that they would resist it.”

 

"Thats who is building the dock in order to provide aid into Gaza."

 

You do understand the difference between build and guard, right?

 

We're building the pier.  The Hamas statement seems to be have carefully worded at to not be threat to us, because we're doing the building and have said no US troops on soil.  All Israel has done is anchor it to land.  And that certainly didn't require the Israeli military.  And is already done.

 

Israel is saying their military has to be there after it is built and as aid is coming in.  Israel is moving to make sure the aid flows through them, they control it, and their military has a station associated with the aid after the pier is built.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/officials-voice-concern-over-us-plans-for-gaza-aid-pier

 

I think a lot of the Palestinian people support Hamas.

 

I've said that multiple times in this thread.  Polls show that Hamas has pretty wide support.  Whether Hamas is helping Palestinians out or not is a matter of perspective and time.

 

It could be (and has been) argued that the Zelensky government is harming the Ukrainians.  If you are Palestinian and willing to die for the creation of an independent Palestinian state, Hamas might be considered to be helping you.  Oct. 7 appears to have achieved several objectives that seem like they might be an important move in that direction (e.g. killing the Israeli/Saudi peace agreement, you have the US guaranteeing Palestinian security in a way that never happened in the past, and sanctioning some Isrealis and much of the rest of the world has even moved further away from supporting the expansionist policies of Israel.)

 

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Thr same UN workers who were found to members of Hamas?

 

Where do you get your news from?

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/22/world/middleeast/unrwa-israel-hamas-report.html

 

(And even Israel isn't claiming they all are members of Hamas.)

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[TradeTheBeal!]

Cmon everybody! Jump on the Peace Train!!

 

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

The promises that Joe Biden is making to the Palestinians is about politics in his own country, not some real change in policy. He is trying to pacify terrorists sympathizers within his own party because he doesn’t want them revolting in the upcoming presidential election. Everyone’s gotta pander, Bidens no different.

 

 

Quote

If you are Palestinian and willing to die for the creation of an independent Palestinian state, Hamas might be considered to be helping you.  Oct. 7 appears to have achieved several objectives that seem like they might

By this logic, Israel is helping them the most! Perhaps Palestinians should thank Israel, instead of cursing them.

 

 

The UN is not an independent organizing. If put Iran and Russia in charge of human rights at various times. The people running it have made comments that show they aren’t unbiased. The NYtimes you article quotes a report which is separate from the investigation into UNRWA…

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798306

 

He spoke after former French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna submitted a report reviewing neutrality issues in the organization. 

 

While she found flaws within UNRWA that caused problems with neutrality, she still concluded that it was important that the organization continue its unique work servicing Palestinian refugees. 

 

Her report, which was commissioned by UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, is separate from the UN investigation into charges that 12 UNRWA staff members who participated in the October 7 attack against Israel.

 

[PeterMP]

4 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

The promises that Joe Biden is making to the Palestinians is about politics in his own country, not some real change in policy. He is trying to pacify terrorists sympathizers within his own party because he doesn’t want them revolting in the upcoming presidential election. Everyone’s gotta pander, Bidens no different.

 

 

By this logic, Israel is helping them the most! Perhaps Palestinians should thank Israel, instead of cursing them.

 

 

The UN is not an independent organizing. If put Iran and Russia in charge of human rights at various times. The people running it have made comments that show they aren’t unbiased. The NYtimes you article quotes a report which is separate from the investigation into UNRWA…

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798306

 

 

He spoke after former French Foreign Minister Catherine Colonna submitted a report reviewing neutrality issues in the organization. 

 

While she found flaws within UNRWA that caused problems with neutrality, she still concluded that it was important that the organization continue its unique work servicing Palestinian refugees. 

 

Her report, which was commissioned by UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, is separate from the UN investigation into charges that 12 UNRWA staff members who participated in the October 7 attack against Israel.

 

 

It doesn't matter why they've been made.  They've been made.  That the politics have changed in a matter of months that Biden has the pressure to do it is telling.

 

And the Ukrainians should be thanking Russia for helping push their application process for the EU forward.

 

And Israel is an independent organization whose word we should take without question?

 

(I'm not going to tell you that the UN isn't biased and even hasn't been infiltrated by Hamas but you are taking Israel's word for it while questioning everybody else's.  And you've now done the same thing multiple times.  You're posting everything in the most anti-Hama/pro-Israeli to the point that you've actually said somethings that aren't true.  No different than the conversation about who shelled the area that around the pier.  I'm not claiming Hamas did it.  My point is that you don't know that and that's not what the US is saying.

 

The point of the NYT story isn't that the UN is without fault.  It is that there's no evidence of it than other Israel has claimed and Israel hasn't actually released any information to support their claims.  And Israel has an interest in side lining the UN from delivering aid.) 

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

 

And Israel is an independent organization whose word we should take without question?

 

no, but you were pushing some report like it meant something.

 

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

(I'm not going to tell you that the UN isn't biased and even hasn't been infiltrated by Hamas but you are taking Israel's word for it while questioning everybody else's.  And you've now done the same thing multiple times.  You're posting everything in the most anti-Hama/pro-Israeli to the point that you've actually said somethings that aren't true.

 

no, what i have said is absolutely true.  No one should ever be pro Hamas.

 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

no, what i have said is absolutely true.  No one should ever be pro Hamas.

 

The US has not said that Hamas attacked the area around the pier.  That wasn't true.

 

You can be neutral/factual.  Not taking everything Israel says at face value doesn't make you pro-Hamas.  The world is not only 2 extremes.

Edited April 28 by PeterMP

[CousinsCowgirl84]

9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

The US has not said that Hamas attacked the area around the pier.  That wasn't true.

 

yes, they have. 
 

9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

You can be neutral/factual.  Not taking everything Israel says at face value doesn't make you pro-Hamas.  The world is not only 2 extremes.

A moral person can be pro Palestinian. I am pro Palestinian.
 

No rational person would be pro Hamas. However, you are definitely pro Hamas. You are taking Hamas on their word.
 

 

Edited April 28 by CousinsCowgirl84

[ixcuincle]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently especially with all the Pro-palestinian comments behind any instagram post mentioning mcdonalds

 

These protestors out there in the colleges want their university to divest from any companies they say are supporting Israelis

 

Is there any evidence of this? I had an argument with someone on instagram who said Chick-Fil-A was supporting Israel. Who are these mysterious companies supporting Israel? And why would a multinational company support Israel or even take a political stance?

 

(Yes, I saw someone on the train a few weeks ago carrying a sign about boycotting companies, but I just don't understand. Are these companies openly taking political stances? I haven't seen a company take a political or ethical stance since COVID "In these trying times")

[PeterMP]

6 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

yes, they have. 

 

Then post a link from a credible source.  I've given you multiple ones that simply say terrorists.