Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Fergasun]

Just seeing news that there was a series of attacks overnight in Israel.  Let's use this thread to discuss developments....

[PleaseBlitz]

Yea, Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Isreal and, if history is any guide, is about to catch a bad one.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-rockets-airstrikes-tel-aviv-11fb98655c256d54ecb5329284fc37d2

 

Quote

JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas militants fired thousands of rockets and sent dozens of fighters into Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip in an unprecedented surprise early morning attack during a major Jewish holiday Saturday, killing dozens and stunning the country. Israel said it is now at war with Hamas and launched airstrikes in Gaza, vowing to inflict an “unprecedented price.”

 

In an assault of startling breadth, Hamas gunmen rolled into as many as 22 locations outside the Gaza Strip, including towns and other communities as far as 15 miles (24 kilometers) from the Gaza border. In some places, they roamed for hours, gunning down civilians and soldiers until Israel’s military mustered a response. Even well after nightfall, gunbattles continued in some locations.

 

Israel’s national rescue service said at least 100 people were killed and hundreds wounded, making it the deadliest attack in Israel in years. An unknown number of Israeli soldiers and civilians were also taken captive and brought into Gaza, an enormously sensitive issue for Israel. Army spokesman Daniel Hagari said militants were also holding hostages in standoffs in two towns.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by PleaseBlitz

[Ball Security]

The civilians kidnapped and taken to Palestine would hold off a bombing attack, no?

[abdcskins]

Sad.  That part of the world is so screwed.  Constant conflict, and I don't see it ending anytime soon.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition…

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Israel kept picking the scab…. Still, weird timing just because it seemed like Saudi Arabia and Israel were working on a deal to normalize relations and make concessions to the Palestinians. I guess Hamas got tired of waiting.

[The Sisko]

When you're an apartheid state with people hopelessly penned into a huge refugee camp under dehumanizing conditions, they tend to get angry. This is the price of their apartheid state and creating "facts on the ground" with illegal settlements. I'm not saying Hamas is right, or they're the good guys. However, the pearl-clutching, unprovoked attack narrative that the US and much of the world has whenever this kind of thing happens is disingenuous at best. In the meantime, they allow all the illegal stuff to go on from the Israeli side without even a sideways glance as they continue to talk the peace BS while funding, aiding, and abetting Israel's behavior.

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

When you're an apartheid state with people hopelessly penned into a huge refugee camp under dehumanizing conditions, they tend to get angry. This is the price of their apartheid state and creating "facts on the ground" with illegal settlements. I'm not saying Hamas is right, or they're the good guys. However, the pearl-clutching, unprovoked attack narrative that the US and much of the world has whenever this kind of thing happens is disingenuous at best. In the meantime, they allow all the illegal stuff to go on from the Israeli side without even a sideways glance as they continue to talk the peace BS while funding, aiding, and abetting Israel's behavior.

That's the kind of stuff I kept reading and hearing most of the time about Isreal.

You do know that they are some muslim isrealis? That they even do have a political party and have some deputies in their parliament?

 

That's not what I would call Apartheid.

 

Netanyahu is mostly an ass, and most of his ministers are as well and was not really working to upgrade relationship within the two side. But I could also understand them as it's kinda hard to negotiate with terrorists, if ever possible at all. So it's hard to put the sole blame on them.

 

That stuff has been going on for 75 years. It's not gonna end anytime soon. And both sides are responsibles for that. And by side, I'm talking western countries and muslim countries (not just Israel or Palestinians). Because they are also to blame in all this ****: the Brits because they left Palestinia in 1947 and the UN for the division of the country that muslim countries would never accept.

 

This is a place where there will never have peace until one side has totally deleted the other one.

 

Now, trying to play the blaming game in this, get over it, you'll blame someone on monday, and the other side on tuesday. 

Isreal is no saint, but that's not the apartheid some would like us to think it is. Apartheid in South Africa was definately not was Israel is.

[Gurgeh]

6 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Israel kept picking the scab…. Still, weird timing just because it seemed like Saudi Arabia and Israel were working on a deal to normalize relations and make concessions to the Palestinians. I guess Hamas got tired of waiting.

 

"Why now" is always a good question to ask. Maybe Hamas didn't like what they were hearing about the deals being struck between Israel, the US and the Saudis, and this way they scupper any peace negotiations..

[PleaseBlitz]

20 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

 

"Why now" is always a good question to ask. Maybe Hamas didn't like what they were hearing about the deals being struck between Israel, the US and the Saudis, and this way they scupper any peace negotiations..

A popular theory right now is Iran doesn’t like the deal being struck between the US, Saudis and Israel, and Iran funds Hamas. 

[China]

Middle East Conflict Intensifies As Blah Blah Blah, Etc. Etc.

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Netanyahu is mostly an ass, and most of his ministers are as well and was not really working to upgrade relationship within the two side. But I could also understand them as it's kinda hard to negotiate with terrorists, if ever possible at all. So it's hard to put the sole blame on them.

 

That stuff has been going on for 75 years. It's not gonna end anytime soon. And both sides are responsibles for that. And by side, I'm talking western countries and muslim countries (not just Israel or Palestinians). Because they are also to blame in all this ****: the Brits because they left Palestinia in 1947 and the UN for the division of the country that muslim countries would never accept.

 

Just to be clear, the British left because the Jews in the area were acting as terrorists.

 

The Israeli state and Jews returning back to the area has been the result of terrorism and illegal activity pretty much right from the start.  

 

e.g.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

 

So to call the Palestinians terrorist and to say the Israelis (i.e. Netanyahu) have a hard time negotiating with them as terrorist sort of rings hollow.  You could easily say and conclude the Palestinians are only practicing what they've learned/seen from the Israelis.

 

Previous to the influx of the extremist European Jews that believed they were returning to a God granted home land, there were Jews in the area (there are Arab Jews) that lived mostly in peace with the local Arab Muslims.  The whole conflict is largely driven by European Jewish descendants that believe that God has granted them a large swath of the Middle East.

Edited October 8, 2023 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

The right wing of the Israeli government isn't acting out self-defense or anything like that.  They are acting based on a religious belief that the land is theirs given from God.

 

And not a the New Testament Jesus God that says lover your neighbors and love and pray for your enemies, but the OT God of go and kill your enemies and I'll help you, and failure is only because you don't have enough faith in God.

Edited October 8, 2023 by PeterMP

[RansomthePasserby]

This is brutal.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/israel-gaza-fighting-hamas-attack-music-festival-intl-hnk/index.html

 

“She saw a number of dead and injured people on the sides of the road, but one stuck with her. 

Another video shows that scene: one concertgoer was shot dead outside a van, and another dead in the passenger seat of the vehicle. 

Gibly confirmed video obtained by CNN of the scene showed the two victims that she saw. 

“It was so terrifying and we didn’t know where to drive to not meet those evil…people,” she said. “I have a lot of friends that got lost at the forest for a lot of hours and got shot like it was a range.”

[mcsluggo]

7 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Israel kept picking the scab…. Still, weird timing just because it seemed like Saudi Arabia and Israel were working on a deal to normalize relations and make concessions to the Palestinians. I guess Hamas got tired of waiting.

 

 

6 hours ago, The Sisko said:

When you're an apartheid state with people hopelessly penned into a huge refugee camp under dehumanizing conditions, they tend to get angry. This is the price of their apartheid state and creating "facts on the ground" with illegal settlements. I'm not saying Hamas is right, or they're the good guys. However, the pearl-clutching, unprovoked attack narrative that the US and much of the world has whenever this kind of thing happens is disingenuous at best. In the meantime, they allow all the illegal stuff to go on from the Israeli side without even a sideways glance as they continue to talk the peace BS while funding, aiding, and abetting Israel's behavior.

 

the timing isn't weird at all.   The hamas leadership, and their main backers (iran (directly and indirectly through hezbolah), and gcc elites) have zero interest in peace.   They (hamas leadership) personally benefit from the continuation/resumption of hostilities even as their people's suffering increases.   The only person happier with this ramping up of hostilities is Netanyahu.... who also couldn't give a rats ass about the well being of gaza OR israeli people.... but it DOES give him a ready-made distraction from the continuous stream of bull**** that he pulls.   This is the get-out-jail-free card he has been waiting for.... Kwanza came early this year for both sets of assholes.     

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

A popular theory right now is Iran doesn’t like the deal being struck between the US, Saudis and Israel, and Iran funds Hamas. 

 

After the deal with jus struck with Iran?

 

Fascinating.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Renegade7]

Isn't cutting off essential services, like electricity, to a civilian population some sort of war crime?

 

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

[Barry.Randolphe]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Isn't cutting off essential services, like electricity, to a civilian population some sort of war crime?

 

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

 

Yes, but rules don't apply to Israel 🤷‍♂️

 

I'm personally shocked the intelligence failed so badly here. The entire country is under surveillance, tons of money is poured into the latest and greatest surveillance technologies. How does this happen??

[NickyJ]

Launching rockets at civilian targets is a war crime. Launching air strikes on civilian targets is a war crime. Shooting random civilians is a war crime. Kidnapping civilians is probably a war crime too. After 70 years of conflict, I think the list of which war crimes haven't been committed is pretty small.

Edited October 8, 2023 by NickyJ

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Launching rockets at civilian targets is a war crime. Launching air strikes on civilian targets is a war crime. Shooting random civilians is a war crime. Kidnapping civilians is probably a war crime too. After 70 years of conflict, I think the list of which war crimes haven't been committed is pretty small.

 

Facts.

 

On the other hand, especially this century, one side is supposedly a democratic sovereign country.  The other side seems to be a spin the wheel of entities that aren't.

[Destino]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

Launching rockets at civilian targets is a war crime. Launching air strikes on civilian targets is a war crime. Shooting random civilians is a war crime. Kidnapping civilians is probably a war crime too. After 70 years of conflict, I think the list of which war crimes haven't been committed is pretty small.

I agree with everything you’ve said. The problem is what’s the alternative? Accepting an apartheid state is not possible, it’s like asking someone to accept starvation while you eat three meals a day in front of them. They will not. They will be driven to violence eventually, even if they know that they stand no chance of winning. Even if it’s a war crime.

 

and this isn’t to say that Israel isn’t forced to respond, or that they shouldn’t. Their people have been taken. According to reports plenty of women and children. They can’t just let that go, no matter what the root causes for this might be. They’ll respond like they always do, with tremendous force. And they’ll use this attack to justify even more harsh conditions afterwards.

 

and the cycle will go on. 

[@DCGoldPants]

8 hours ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

I'm personally shocked the intelligence failed so badly here. The entire country is under surveillance, tons of money is poured into the latest and greatest surveillance technologies. How does this happen??

 

This bothers me a lot too. It took me a down a path of conspiracy which I didn't like, but with Netanyahu, I can't just dismiss. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

 

[The Sisko]

16 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

That's the kind of stuff I kept reading and hearing most of the time about Isreal.

You do know that they are some muslim isrealis? That they even do have a political party and have some deputies in their parliament?

 

That's not what I would call Apartheid.

 

Netanyahu is mostly an ass, and most of his ministers are as well and was not really working to upgrade relationship within the two side. But I could also understand them as it's kinda hard to negotiate with terrorists, if ever possible at all. So it's hard to put the sole blame on them.

 

That stuff has been going on for 75 years. It's not gonna end anytime soon. And both sides are responsibles for that. And by side, I'm talking western countries and muslim countries (not just Israel or Palestinians). Because they are also to blame in all this ****: the Brits because they left Palestinia in 1947 and the UN for the division of the country that muslim countries would never accept.

 

This is a place where there will never have peace until one side has totally deleted the other one.

 

Now, trying to play the blaming game in this, get over it, you'll blame someone on monday, and the other side on tuesday. 

Isreal is no saint, but that's not the apartheid some would like us to think it is. Apartheid in South Africa was definately not was Israel is.

When people call Israel an apartheid state, they don't mean that it's exactly like what existed in S. Africa. However, it's not at all dissimilar. I am well aware that there are Muslims and Christians living in Israel proper and that in terms of voting rights, they're treated about on par with American Black people. However, Israel has no constitution, just a set of basic laws that can and do change over time so Palestinians living in the West Bank, which Israel claims as its sovereign territory, cannot vote and have zero representation. Moreover, over the past three decades or so, Israel has pursued the policy of establishing settlements in the occupied territories in an effort to create "facts on the ground" essentially pushing Palestinians out of the little land they had left. It's a slow-roll ethnic cleansing, or maybe colonization if you want to be nice about it.

 

Israel is not about democracy. It's about a Jewish state. Their nation-state law finally said the quiet part out loud and made it explicit. It defines Israel as “the nation state of the Jewish People” and that “the exercise of the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish People”.

 

Quote

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

 

Other steps are taken to ensure Jewish domination, including a state policy of “separation” of Palestinians between the West Bank and Gaza, which prevents the movement of people and goods within the OPT, and “Judaization” of areas with significant Palestinian populations, including Jerusalem as well as the Galilee and the Negev in Israel. This policy, which aims to maximize Jewish Israeli control over land, concentrates the majority of Palestinians who live outside Israel’s major, predominantly Jewish cities into dense, under-served enclaves and restricts their access to land and housing, while nurturing the growth of nearby Jewish communities.

 

FWIW, the policy described in that last sentence sounds awfully similar to the S. African policy of relegating native people to Bantustans. So no, Israel is not the bastion of democracy that the evangelicals and AIPAC want you to think it is.