Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[tshile]

Also, to add - the Syrian refugee crisis wasn’t exactly a clean humanitarian act. There was a ton of problems and civil strife over that. 

[Destino]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

Also, to add - the Syrian refugee crisis wasn’t exactly a clean humanitarian act. There was a ton of problems and civil strife over that. 

There’s no perfect way to deal with mass displacement. Humans being humans, there’s really little chance of it even being handled well. Everyone acts like refugees are a plague. But being able simply to not be in the area in which bombs are falling while they are falling is all by itself a benefit. Gaza has no airport and no sea port. Everyone leaving must be granted a pass by either Israel or Egypt which are apparently hard to get. There was no real chance of evacuating a war zone.
 

I’m watching on the news that Hamas is apparently still launching rockets right now. Not many, and they will be of no consequence as the iron dome will likely make short work of them, but such actions will no doubt result in more bombings. And judging by the reports of the troop build up an invasion is yet to come. Into an area filled with hundreds of thousands of kids. 

 

 

[Bang]

Haven't really followed the conversation. It's tough to say, but my entire reaction has been 'Oh? Again?"
The answers have never been wanted for this conflict. And it'll never end til it does.
Sounds cynical, dismissive and uncaring, i know, but I'm cynical, and it's hard to care anymore. Humanity, sure, but damn, I've been seeing this for pretty much my whole life, and as i said.. there is no solution that either side wants.

One thing I believe, we should stay OUT of it, entirely, and i know that is a pipe dream, we're going to send money and weapons, and frankly, we've been sending both to Israel for so long, I can't really see how they need more.
This is their business. Constantly making it our business has never ever resulted in any solutions, or anything good for us at all. So Israel, do what you're going to do. But I don't want any part of it.

 

~Bang

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Destino]

What’s the story with these hamas “rockets” anyway? They just making these things from common items in a garage? They must be because a blockade would never allow this quantity of munitions being smuggled in, and they seem to be almost entirely ineffective. Imagine inviting a bombing run so you can launch your hobby rocket at your enemies. Amazing plan.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[@DCGoldPants]

2 minutes ago, Destino said:

What’s the story with these hamas “rockets” anyway? They just making these things from common items in a garage? They must be because a blockade would never allow this quantity of munitions being smuggled in, and they seem to be almost entirely ineffective. Imagine inviting a bombing run so you can launch your hobby rocket at your enemies. Amazing plan.

 

secret supply lines from all over the place. Iran, Syria and Egypt are the most commonly mentioned. 

[Destino]

Just now, @DCGoldPants said:

 

secret supply lines from all over the place. Iran, Syria and Egypt are the most commonly mentioned. 

Well they’ve been saving up their smuggled garbage rockets then because they just launched about a hundred and took credit for the attack. The attack doesn’t seem to have done anything at all, other than waste some expensive iron dome supplies and give Israeli artillery a few targets.  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

17 minutes ago, Destino said:

What’s the story with these hamas “rockets” anyway? They just making these things from common items in a garage? They must be because a blockade would never allow this quantity of munitions being smuggled in, and they seem to be almost entirely ineffective. Imagine inviting a bombing run so you can launch your hobby rocket at your enemies. Amazing plan.

Iran gives them to Hamas.

[@DCGoldPants]

6 minutes ago, Destino said:

Well they’ve been saving up their smuggled garbage rockets then because they just launched about a hundred and took credit for the attack. The attack doesn’t seem to have done anything at all, other than waste some expensive iron dome supplies and give Israeli artillery a few targets.  

 

I wouldn't get them much credit for a strategy here. There are probably instructions from those who supplied them with the weapons. 

[tshile]

17 minutes ago, Destino said:

Well they’ve been saving up their smuggled garbage rockets then because they just launched about a hundred and took credit for the attack. The attack doesn’t seem to have done anything at all, other than waste some expensive iron dome supplies and give Israeli artillery a few targets.  

this has been a thing with them my whole life 

 

they launch these things, nothing happens, Israel pummels them for it. 
 

and then the pro Palestinian people point to the situation as David vs Goliath and say Isreal is bad because their stuff is effective and Hamas’ isn’t. 
 

 

[tshile]

54 minutes ago, Destino said:

There’s no perfect way to deal with mass displacement. Humans being humans, there’s really little chance of it even being handled well. Everyone acts like refugees are a plague.

Yup. 
 

counter point - the people being critical always wave their hands as if dealing with refugees isn’t a big deal and is simply a matter of having a heart or not. 
 

the reality is taking in millions of people is a pretty serious undertaking. The Syrian refugee crisis in Europe is a pretty good example of the long list of issues you have to deal with; and as has been pointed out, it’s not like the issue is resolved. It’s still an issue. 
 

People don’t want to deal with it. Especially when it’s for a group of people you have nothing in common with and no ties to. Especially when every country has its own problems they already have to deal with. 
 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

The dots aren’t very hard to connect.

 

 

[Jumbo]

@TradeTheBeal!

 

I see likelihood that Russia is busy at what it does best in all this. Nobody uses more cutouts and multi-layered manipulations of international hot spots in service to their own causes. We're their closest competitor in that activity, China is still playing catch-up.  

 

[Bang]

2 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

@TradeTheBeal!

 

I see likelihood that Russia is busy at what it does best in all this. Nobody uses more cutouts and multi-layered manipulations of international hot spots in service to their own causes. We're their closest competitor in that activity, China is still playing catch-up.  

 

Among military the belief is that China will make their move toward Taiwan within a couple of years, there is real concern for a legit WWIII before 2030.
China has Russia by the balls, Russia has Iran by the balls, and Iran has Hamas by the balls.  So strategy is probably not at to make an ineffective attack and invite Israeli bombers. China would love nothing better than to keep us exhausting military resources and money on all sorts of fires between now and then.

 

~Bang
 

[Destino]

42 minutes ago, tshile said:

this has been a thing with them my whole life 

 

they launch these things, nothing happens, Israel pummels them for it. 
 

and then the pro Palestinian people point to the situation as David vs Goliath and say Isreal is bad because their stuff is effective and Hamas’ isn’t. 

It makes no sense. The only possible function of the rockets at this point is to provoke an Israeli response. And they’d accomplish more if they shot the wall surrounding Gaza full of holes. 

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Destino said:

It makes no sense. The only possible function of the rockets at this point is to provoke an Israeli response. And they’d accomplish more if they shot the wall surrounding Gaza full of holes. 

Yeah. Thats been the issue for a long time now. Basically since the iron dome. 
 

so it’s always difficult to know what motivates them - is it orders from a other country or just desperate people doing desperate things?

 

There is another element of this… and im not trying to be mean, it is what it is… but Arabs military understanding and practices are among the worst in the world. There’s a reason why conflicts with other types of militaries result in a ridiculously out of whack ratio of deaths and wounded. Look at the 6 day war. Iraq and Afghanistan. It makes Russias ineptitude in Ukraine look like sound strategy. 
 

it has been a common joke I’ve heard from people deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq that the people they were fighting didn’t even aim - they just sprayed bullets and believe Allah would guide them. Literal “spray and pray” 

 

combined with their isolation and lack of education or tech advancement - it seems reasonable to me that they don’t even realize how ineffective they are, or that they honestly think Allah will make them hit something sometime. Both sides think they’re on a mission from their god in one way or another. And religious zealots have truly bizarre reasoning about things. 

[NickyJ]

The point of Hamas is to keep the flow of fighters coming so that they can keep the flow of Iranian support coming. Rockets breed air strikes, air strikes breed recruits. Recruits do actions like these because they're effectively Iranian mercenaries. The cycle will never stop because it's too profitable. Hamas gets money funneled through Iran, Israel gets money funneled through America. Neither side will ever trust each other.

 

Hamas' charter calls for the killing of Jews. Until they put out a statement that it's only okay to kill Jews as long as they're colonizing the West Bank, I expect Israel is never going to be at peace with them and never willing to relinquish ground to them and the populace that they're embedded in. And unfortunately, I don't think there really is a way to defeat them. Hamas doesn't wear uniforms, so there's no way to tell them apart from civilians. In the efforts to kill Hamas fighters now, new ones will be recruited after the immense collateral damage of this war.

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

What’s the story with these hamas “rockets” anyway? They just making these things from common items in a garage? They must be because a blockade would never allow this quantity of munitions being smuggled in, and they seem to be almost entirely ineffective. Imagine inviting a bombing run so you can launch your hobby rocket at your enemies. Amazing plan.

 

They are real rockets being smuggled in through tunnels from Egypt and supplied by Iran and Syria.  Obviously Iran and Syria aren't the most advanced rocket-makers in the world, but they aren't hobby rockets either. 

 

Gotta think those tunnels are going to be rooted out PDQ. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by PleaseBlitz

[@DCGoldPants]

1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

The dots aren’t very hard to connect.

 

 

 

I found his post in the original language "Израиль сталкивается с экзистенциальной угрозой. Любое финансирование для Украины должно быть немедленно перенаправлено в Израиль."

[tshile]

20 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

And unfortunately, I don't think there really is a way to defeat them

Which is why the goal is the occupy and subjugate anyone they don’t kill. 
 

at least that’s what it seems like has always been the goal to me.  They’ve just never had an excuse that’ll allow them to skirt by international scrutiny. This may be it. Who knows. 

[NickyJ]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

Which is why the goal is the occupy and subjugate anyone they don’t kill. 
 

at least that’s what it seems like has always been the goal to me.  They’ve just never had an excuse that’ll allow them to skirt by international scrutiny. This may be it. Who knows. 

After Afghanistan, I'm resigned to the thought that people can never be changed. You can kick out a fanatical religious government, you prop them up with money, you can even see tangible growth (like women's rights in Afghanistan), but at as long as there is resistance in civilian clothing, there will be always be collateral damage. As long as there is collateral damage, there will always be resistance. Pull out, and the side willing to be the most brutal will win.

 

Israel would have to wipe out most of the population to cripple Hamas. Israel has a blank check with sympathy for now, but iirc, even you said it would probably last for 2 weeks at most. After that, support will dry up as the mindless killing and guerilla fighting continues. The West Bank will still be colonized, Palestinians will still push back against it, and the belief that Jews must die will still be alive and well. Palestine will be crippled for now, but after a decade or two of rockets and air strikes and stabbings, we'll be back where we are now.

[PleaseBlitz]

32 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Hamas' charter calls for the killing of Jews. Until they put out a statement that it's only okay to kill Jews as long as they're colonizing the West Bank, I expect Israel is never going to be at peace with them and never willing to relinquish ground to them and the populace that they're embedded in. And unfortunately, I don't think there really is a way to defeat them. Hamas doesn't wear uniforms, so there's no way to tell them apart from civilians. In the efforts to kill Hamas fighters now, new ones will be recruited after the immense collateral damage of this war.

 

Agree.  I don't think this is a solvable problem (unless you consider genocide a solution or, at best, a trail of tears situation, which I don't).  The Palestinians believe their land was stolen by infidels (which it was, thanks Great Britain), and the Israelis believe they are protecting their legitimate right to a state, and it is under near-constant attack from terrorists (also accurate).  The balance of power is so far in the Israeli's favor that (1) they have the ability to exterminate the Palestinians if they wanted to but (2) Hamas won't cede and therefore must resort to asymmetric warfare aka terrorism (and does not seem to care that their terrorism ALWAYS leads to many Palestinian deaths).  

 

The Israelis will go as far as the international community will let them.  The international community will not accept genocide or a mass expulsion of the Palestinians.  So we are stuck with the current situation.  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Even if you got rid of the Palestinians you’d have a lot of angry people in Lebanon and Egypt….

[PeterMP]

48 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yeah. Thats been the issue for a long time now. Basically since the iron dome. 
 

so it’s always difficult to know what motivates them - is it orders from a other country or just desperate people doing desperate things? 

 

So reading more, there seems to be a consensus that this attack is an attempt to change the narrative around the Saudi/Israeli peace process.  Previously, the Saudis had promised only to recognize Israel in conjunction with the creation and recognition by Israel of a Palestinian state.

 

But there has apparently been talk with the new Saudi/Israeli peace initiatives of that going away and of Saudi aid to the Palestinians being restricted (or at least more tightly controlled by the Israelis).  Then this attack is to draw attention back to the Palestinians in the rest of the Islamic world and the (expected) disproportional response by the Israelis to derail the talks between the Saudis and the Israelis.

 

Especially there was some that believed after formalization of an agreement between the Saudis and the Israelis other Middle Eastern/Islamic states might fall into line too.

 

(and of course Iran also doesn't want peace agreements between the Saudis and Israel, their too big rivals.)