Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Renegade7]

Wish Israel would jus officially annex the rest of the territories and give all the Palestinians Israeli citizenship.

 

Share the land if they both want it that bad.

 

The current status is one the biggest recruitment tools Hamas has, but Israel would have to change their status on specifying the determination of the future of their country being left to Jewish people only as part of being a Jewish state.

 

One of the biggest holdups I've seen to this is the similarity in population levels between Palestinian and Israel. Anyone can correct me,  but it's looking like a 3:2 ratio of Israelis to Palestinians, so it wouldn't be as simple being able to jus overwhelm either side from a government representation standpoint.

 

It took generations to get to this point, it could take generations of getting used to this idea.  Still beats generations of this crap we seeing right now.

[kfrankie]

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

You can't walk out of Gaza into any other country without potentially being shot or imprisoned.  There is no border out of Gaza that you can just walk across and go live permanently without likely being imprisoned.  Israel is not allowing people to just walk out of Gaza and live and work in Israel legally.

 

As the war wore on and Germany civilian infrastructure was being attacked, many Germans absolutely left their cities.  By the time, the US and the Soviets are entering Germany and there is widespread bombing of civilian structure in Berlin, there are many German refugees fleeing bombings/Soviets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Berlin_in_World_War_II

 

"By May 1945, 1.7 million people (40% of the population) had fled."

 

You just have no idea about what you're talking about.

 

Germans fleeing the conflict and the Soviets were cared for by US/UK troops in the west and after the war there was a whole program designed to get people back to their homes (if they wanted to) after the war and if not to find a country where they could live.  We put much more effort into resettling people after WWII than the Israelis have with people's homes/land they have taken.  Israel will bulldoze Palestinian villages in the occupied territories without any concern about where those people end up.

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/04/931379662/israel-uses-cover-of-us-election-to-destroy-palestinian-homes-critics-say

 

And they just can't walk out of Gaza and the West Bank and go to another country where they can legally work and live.  They are stuck between staying where they are or going to somewhere will they can be imprisoned or depending where they decide to cross a border shot.  Every country in the region and in the world has strict limits on who and how many people they are taking from Gaza and have for several decades.  To claim otherwise is just false.

 

So Gaza is more or less a prison then?  In any event, if Gaza is a prison its not a very safe one. Perhaps going to a prison in Egypt is a better option.

 

I assume a resident of Gaza could go through the normal channels to apply for citizenship in another Country? Or at least a travel VISA to any number of third world countries. It may take several months, or even years, but there's an avenue for that. Do Gaza citizens have the ability to travel internationally? Apply for exit permits, international VISAs, save up money over the course of the next year, cross into Egypt, take a flight Cairo to Mexico, and disappear.  

[tshile]

55 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Israel would have to wipe out most of the population to cripple Hamas

Yeah I think that’s exactly what they want to do. 
 

russias pretty good at this. Their model is to kill almost everyone, kidnap the rest and disperse them throughout the homeland such that they’re left with nothing and no one.  Then let your natives move in and get free land and rebuild. 
 

I assume that’s exactly what Isreal would do, and they’ll do it as soon as they think they have justification to dodge the international community for it. 

56 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Even if you got rid of the Palestinians you’d have a lot of angry people in Lebanon and Egypt….

Egypt closed their border and is apparently deporting Palestinian travelers back to Gaza. 

I realize where they are historically but right now they’re certainly not doing anything to help Palestinians. 

 

[Destino]

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yeah I think that’s exactly what they want to do. 
 

russias pretty good at this. Their model is to kill almost everyone, kidnap the rest and disperse them throughout the homeland such that they’re left with nothing and no one.  Then let your natives move in and get free land and rebuild. 
 

I assume that’s exactly what Isreal would do, and they’ll do it as soon as they think they have justification to dodge the international community for it. 

I thought that but the closed Egyptian border gives me pause. If they want to drain Gaza of people, they’d probably like that border open, and I’m guessing they’d have worked something out to that effect long ago. Given the conditions they’ve imposed in Gaza, one has to assume the population would have dropped significantly if people could get out easily.  
 

Not sure what their plans are with Gaza, assuming they have one.

[skinsmarydu]

7 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

So Gaza is more or less a prison then?  In any event, if Gaza is a prison its not a very safe one. Perhaps going to a prison in Egypt is a better option.

 

I assume a resident of Gaza could go through the normal channels to apply for citizenship in another Country? Or at least a travel VISA to any number of third world countries. It may take several months, or even years, but there's an avenue for that. Do Gaza citizens have the ability to travel internationally? Apply for exit permits, international VISAs, save up money over the course of the next year, cross into Egypt, take a flight Cairo to Mexico, and disappear.  

I was gonna ask if you've ever read anything about that area, but you answered before I could. 

AND NO, THEY CAN'T GO ANYWHERE. 

[tshile]

Just now, Destino said:

I thought that but the closed Egyptian border gives me pause. If they want to drain Gaza of people, they’d probably like that border open, and I’m guessing they’d have worked something out to that effect long ago. Given the conditions they’ve imposed in Gaza, one has to assume the population would have dropped significantly if people could get out easily.  
 

Not sure what their plans are with Gaza, assuming they have one.

Well all I know about that border is Egypt let a certain number of people through each day. 
 

now it’s closed and they’re kicking out anyone in their country that’s Palestinian. 

[PeterMP]

7 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

So Gaza is more or less a prison then?  In any event, if Gaza is a prison its not a very safe one. Perhaps going to a prison in Egypt is a better option.

 

I assume a resident of Gaza could go through the normal channels to apply for citizenship in another Country? Or at least a travel VISA to any number of third world countries. It may take several months, or even years, but there's an avenue for that. Do Gaza citizens have the ability to travel internationally? Apply for exit permits, international VISAs, save up money over the course of the next year, cross into Egypt, take a flight Cairo to Mexico, and disappear.  

 

A prison where you get to see your kids and loved ones every day.  You get to raise your kids compared to having who knows what happens to them if you are thrown into a prison in another country.

 

Getting citizenship in every country that I know without living in that country is essentially impossible.

 

Countries offer limited exit permits and VISAs to people in Gaza and the West Bank.  Getting out isn't impossible, but it is extremely difficult and takes money.  For most years, even exit into Egypt was rare and not practical for many.  As stated in the link I posted later in the thread, the Egyptians did open a gate (that now has been closed) where they would let some people out every day.  To get out, you had to apply (pay bribes) and often show that you had some place you could go after getting out (for most staying in Egypt long term wasn't an option).  Which means you had to have the money to get somewhere else and had to have somewhere else agree to take you.  Which is hard to do.

 

Especially because most people in Gaza are poor.  Gaza an economically depressed area.  Getting one person out is hard.  To get a whole family out would be exceedingly difficult.  Many people in Gaza aren't staying there because they want to.  

 

Getting out of Gaza and getting to somewhere you can actually live isn't just a matter of using your feet.  And I doubt many in Gaza are staying because it is the only place they've known.  (Which is what you were saying in your first two posts).

 

They stay (largely) because they don't have the means and ability to go elsewhere.

[PeterMP]

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

I thought that but the closed Egyptian border gives me pause. If they want to drain Gaza of people, they’d probably like that border open, and I’m guessing they’d have worked something out to that effect long ago. Given the conditions they’ve imposed in Gaza, one has to assume the population would have dropped significantly if people could get out easily.  
 

Not sure what their plans are with Gaza, assuming they have one.

 

I'm being extremely cynical but do you know where most of the money the IRA used to fight the British came from?

 

(People of Irish descent living in the US.)

Even look at the issues between Canada and India with respect to the Sikhs.

 

It is extremely cynical of me, but the it could be argued that the Israelis have an interest in not allowing a large (successful) population of people of Palestinian origin in other countries.

[NickyJ]

19 minutes ago, Destino said:

I thought that but the closed Egyptian border gives me pause. If they want to drain Gaza of people, they’d probably like that border open, and I’m guessing they’d have worked something out to that effect long ago. Given the conditions they’ve imposed in Gaza, one has to assume the population would have dropped significantly if people could get out easily.  
 

Not sure what their plans are with Gaza, assuming they have one.

I think the Egyptians want to wash their hands of this. They barely made it through Arab Spring with the military's government intact, and it took an overthrow and then a military coup afterwards to do it. I don't think they're up for taking in a group of people who want to fight for their homes back. The Jordanians had a bad experience with that with Black September. It may have been over 50 years ago, but that's the thing about the Middle East. It never changes. Egypt can take the hard, humanitarian way of importing everyone both peaceful and violent, or they can take the easy way. The easy way is to close the exits and look the other way.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by NickyJ

[skinsmarydu]

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

A prison where you get to see your kids and loved ones every day.  You get to raise your kids compared to having who knows what happens to them if you are thrown into a prison in another country.

 

Getting citizenship in every country that I know without living in that country is essentially impossible.

 

Countries offer limited exit permits and VISAs to people in Gaza and the West Bank.  Getting out isn't impossible, but it is extremely difficult and takes money.  For most years, even exit into Egypt was rare and not practical for many.  As stated in the link I posted later in the thread, the Egyptians did open a gate (that now has been closed) where they would let some people out every day.  To get out, you had to apply (pay bribes) and often show that you had some place you could go after getting out (for most staying in Egypt long term wasn't an option).  Which means you had to have the money to get somewhere else and had to have somewhere else agree to take you.  Which is hard to do.

 

Especially because most people in Gaza are poor.  Gaza an economically depressed area.  Getting one person out is hard.  To get a whole family out would be exceedingly difficult.  Many people in Gaza aren't staying there because they want to.  

 

Getting out of Gaza and getting to somewhere you can actually live isn't just a matter of using your feet.  And I doubt many in Gaza are staying because it is the only place they've known.  (Which is what you were saying in your first two posts).

 

They stay (largely) because they don't have the means and ability to go elsewhere.

This is the "reading and educational" stuff I was commenting on earlier.  There's only a sliver of a way out, if you've got the means (and stamina) to get through it. 

There are no farms, no food...so just to keep yourself alive in Gaza is a struggle.  To get out takes a lot more than we'll ever know here because we take things for granted. 

[NickyJ]

It looked bad before. It's near unspeakable now

 

https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/israel-horror-over-40-children-killed-beheaded-by-hamas-terrorists-several-victims-burnt-alive/#:~:text=10 October%2C 2023-,Israel horror%3A Over 40 children killed and beheaded by Hamas,chopped off%2C i24 news reported
 

Quote

Israel horror: Over 40 children killed and beheaded by Hamas terrorists, several victims reportedly burnt alive

 

I don't see how there's going to be any reconciliation coming.

[Destino]

I know people like to say “looks like a war zone” a lot in US politics, but these images coming out of Gaza really do.  
 

 

I don’t know how Hamas organizes their living arrangements, but that looks like a lot of civilian deaths to me.  And apparently this is just the beginning if the news can be be,I ever.  

[Destino]

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It looked bad before. It's near unspeakable now

 

https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/israel-horror-over-40-children-killed-beheaded-by-hamas-terrorists-several-victims-burnt-alive/#:~:text=10 October%2C 2023-,Israel horror%3A Over 40 children killed and beheaded by Hamas,chopped off%2C i24 news reported
 

 

I don't see how there's going to be any reconciliation coming.

I saw this earlier on twitter and was really hoping it would prove not to be true. I’m aware that babies die in war, bombs spare no one, but to actually go into home and intentionally kill babies? That’s grim.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[tshile]

24 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

 

It looked bad before. It's near unspeakable now

 

Think we’re seeing the last days of any Palestinian land/people. 
 

Looks to me like they’re gonna get wiped off the map. 

[Larry]

27 minutes ago, Destino said:

 

I don’t know how Hamas organizes their living arrangements, but that looks like a lot of civilian deaths to me.

 

I have read that Hamas intentionally places their offices on the ground floors of apartment buildings, so that any strike on them will incur maximum civilian casualties. 

 

I'm not sure you can believe anything you read about that part of the world. But I could believe it. 

[@DCGoldPants]

5 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I have read that Hamas intentionally places their offices on the ground floors of apartment buildings, so that any strike on them will incur maximum civilian casualties. 

 

I'm not sure you can believe anything you read about that part of the world. But I could believe it. 

 

over the years even the UN has found Hamas or weapons stashes in places like hospitals and schools. 

[RansomthePasserby]

52 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It looked bad before. It's near unspeakable now

 

https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/israel-horror-over-40-children-killed-beheaded-by-hamas-terrorists-several-victims-burnt-alive/#:~:text=10 October%2C 2023-,Israel horror%3A Over 40 children killed and beheaded by Hamas,chopped off%2C i24 news reported
 

 

I don't see how there's going to be any reconciliation coming.

As a parent words cannot express a response to this. 

[Jumbo]

Nice, clean, and compassionate warfare remains an elusive goal. 😖

 

Gee @Larry, remember that TOS Star Trek episode where a humanoid civilization had achieved it and had evolved to computer simulations showing the death total after attacks and the warring factions would have the required number of "fatalities" report to disintegration chambers? So clean and efficient. And the good old meddling Federation via Cap Kirk stepped in and said "nope, too antiseptic." Golly, it's all so complicated. 🦧

[tshile]

We’ve (the USA) have become completely desensitized to the realities of war. Out gun culture - including movies and tv shows- combined with movies and tv shows romanticizing war, our own supposed morals in how we conduct war (we aren’t perfect but we seem to be the best out there), and how our military might skews death ratios in such ridiculous ways when we do engage in war, to bring geographically protected from constant conflict and invasions…

 

The rest of the world takes a more total war outlook, and only puts on a certain face to head off war crimes. Which is sort of a joke anyways. 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Destino]

29 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Nice, clean, and compassionate warfare remains an elusive goal. 😖

How did that expectation even come about? We went from war is hell to expecting civilians to walk out well fed and whole. The weird thing is there has been no such war to hold up as an example of this being remotely possible.

 

also, I remember that star trek episode. lol

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Destino said:

How did that expectation even come about?

When people thought - hey what goes on in wars is awful, we should make some rules

 

 

the whole idea is stupid. Has anyone that’s won a war been convicted and punished for war crimes outside of some random African warlords? Best I recall it’s losers of wars that wind up getting punished. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

It looked bad before. It's near unspeakable now

 

https://www.opindia.com/2023/10/israel-horror-over-40-children-killed-beheaded-by-hamas-terrorists-several-victims-burnt-alive/#:~:text=10 October%2C 2023-,Israel horror%3A Over 40 children killed and beheaded by Hamas,chopped off%2C i24 news reported
 

 

I don't see how there's going to be any reconciliation coming.

We’re supposed to be smarter than this by now.  Do better.

 

 

[PokerPacker]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

I saw this earlier on twitter and was really hoping it would prove not to be true. I’m aware that babies die in war, bombs spare no one, but to actually go into home and intentionally kill babies? That’s grim.

Given this is all a fight between Abrahamic religions, it's worth pointing out that one of the celebrated stories in their religious texts involves God murdering the first born son of every Egyptian family.  So pretty much par for the course here.