Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[tshile]

That’s fine but I’m not sure it has anything to do with what I pointed out. Which probably belongs in the election thread anyways. 

[tshile]

Israel’s reactions (as I heard on NPR this morning) are not good. 
 

one of their leaders said if they won’t give us smart bombs we’ll use dumb bombs and kill more Palestinians 

 

another said this is why we shouldn’t have allowed them to pressure us, we should have ended this quickly from the start 

 

and lots more along those lines. 
 

if the heart of it is morality then I get it - that’s how morality works, making tough decisions when it’s inconvenient to do so

 

but politically I’m not sure it makes sense. 

[The Sisko]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:45 PM, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

It’s a more complicated question than your gotcha question implies. 
 

Ultimately I think leaders who commit war crimes should be prosecuted.

But Israel’s leaders are government officials. Hamas leaders are not. So that does give them greater authority to act in defense of their state. 
 

I supposed if the ICC is willing to round up the leaders of Hamas, the ayatollah in Iran, Xi in China, your American president of choice, ect then after all those people get their fair trial we can work our way down the list to Israel.

Tranlsation: Israel gets a special dispensation to commit war crimes because I like them.

 

 

 

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

21 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

Tranlsation: Israel gets a special dispensation to commit war crimes because I like them.

 

 

 

 

No more special dispensation than any other country. 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

Tranlsation: Israel gets a special dispensation to commit war crimes because I like them.

 

 

 

 

To me it would be more correct to say:

History shows war crimes are selectively enforced, and based on said history its way more likely Hamas leaders are tried on it but Israeli leaders are not. 
 

I think pointing out the likelihood of things based on the read world is not the same as a personal endorsement of the situation 

 

(sorry I’ve been arguing about “war crimes” a lot in this thread…)

[The Sisko]

3 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

No more special dispensation than any other country. 

Your comment seems to say otherwise. As with many on the right, you seem to have a different standard for Israel than for other countries. AIPAC's money has done a masterful job of turning right-wing anti-semitic evangelicals into ardent Zionists...not to imply that you're anti-semitic or an evangelical.

Edited May 9 by The Sisko

[Fergasun]

Here is a good article on Israel reaction: 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-fury-biden-threat-weapons-rafah-attack-rcna151221

 

GOP is going to be recalibrating their attacks on Biden.  I predict a mix of  "Biden abandons Israel" with "he's obviously cowtowing to the politics of leftist college students and Hamas supporters in Michigan."  An Israel politician posted Hamas [heart emoji] Biden. The left is still gonna call him "Genocide Joe"... I mean the Russian influenced left.  

 

I think this is reasonable push back.  I will just say this when it comes to our American Middle Eastern fiascos.   Our track record indicates, we at least try to do the right thing and nation build / establish stability for the local population and gain allies.  And when we do screw up, we admit our mistakes and back that up with cash.  I mentioned reading about US soldiers accidently killing civilians a few pages ago... and our Army had a fund to pay families back.  After 6 months we had paid out nearly $1M.  That didn't stop the widowed and left with 1 child alive (out of 4) woman from the HRW article from cursing us.  But I think it shows good faith.  I don't remember us bombing hospitals either.

 

"Destroy Hamas" is not an objectively achievable war aim when I am sure to Israel, every adult male between 15-65 is "Hamas".  Funny how I don't see Israel talking about  "Regime change" and "democracy". 

 

And right-wkng Israeli politicians in that article are still talking as if Hamas is a threat to the nation of Israel.  

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

"Destroy Hamas" is not an objectively achievable war aim when I am sure to Israel, every adult male between 15-65 is "Hamas".  Funny how I don't see Israel talking about  "Regime change" and "democracy"

Of course it’s not, and they’re not discussing those things. Which is why from the start my thought was they will take the land. And come up with whatever they come up with to handle the Palestinians that are still alive once they formally annex the land to be theirs. 

[tshile]

So while Biden is stopping one shipment, another shipment valued at 870 million is going out the door to Israel now. 
 

I just don’t understand the strategy here. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

54 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

Your comment seems to say otherwise. As with many on the right, you seem to have a different standard for Israel than for other countries.

Hamas isn’t a country. Neither is Palestine for that matter. I’m all for bringing leaders of countries who commit war crimes to the ICC but there are many leaders that have done far more unprovoked that should be brought up on charges first if that is the route we are taking.
 

Which is why I specifically listed countries that should have their leaders charged in front of Israel. They’ve done worse things.

Edited May 9 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Fergasun]

30 minutes ago, tshile said:

Of course it’s not, and they’re not discussing those things. Which is why from the start my thought was they will take the land. And come up with whatever they come up with to handle the Palestinians that are still alive once they formally annex the land to be theirs. 

And I just thought this was the "October 7 revenge tour" and Israel's goal was to colllectively punish as many Palestinians as possible (kill, displace, starve, economically ruin) until they got tired and agreed to another ceasefire which inevitably gets broken.

 

What are the 2 million people of Gaza supposed to do while the IDF rolls through?  None of that has been clear.  I think the killing of the Israeli hostages waving white flags at them is an indication of the IDF itentions. 

Edited May 9 by Fergasun
"broken" changed to broken....

[CousinsCowgirl84]

14 minutes ago, tshile said:

So while Biden is stopping one shipment, another shipment valued at 870 million is going out the door to Israel now. 
 

I just don’t understand the strategy here. 
 

 

 

Some are offensive weapons and some are defensive. I think he is specifically not sending the weapons that cause large widespread destruction. But, of course it is mainly a political statement.

Which is the first thing to do.

[Captain Wiggles]

14 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

there are many leaders that have done far more unprovoked that should be brought up on charges first if that is the route we are taking.
 

 

This argument sounds very familiar. Wonder where I've heard it before. Oh right....

 

 

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Israel's goal was to colllectively punish as many Palestinians as possible (kill, displace, starve, economically ruin) until they got tired and agreed to another ceasefire which inevitably gets broken.

 

well. That would only make sense if the hostages were released or dead. So long as there are hostages alive, that’s not and never was going to happen. It’s totally unreasonable to expect a group capable of waging the war, to get bored and stop while their people are actively held as hostages…  this is why Hamas plan was stupid. No one is helping them or intervening and they have no way to take on Israel by themselves.
 

they’re going to wind up dead and for a “country” that doesn’t exist anymore. 

 

8 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

 

What are the 2 million people of Gaza supposed to do while the IDF rolls through?  None of that has been clear.  I think the killing of the Israeli hostages waving white flags at them is an indication of the IDF itentions. 

I don’t think Israel gives a **** about those 2 million people. 
 

and obviously Hamas is incapable of doing anything. 
 

🤷‍♂️ 

WTOP is saying Israel just released a statement that they will “go it alone”

 

so. The move to get them back to a negotiating table (the premise being - you must negotiate with terrorists 🙄) is not getting them back to the negotiating table. Is not going to do anything about the protests or the people angry at the admin. And likely pissed off a significant number of Jewish people and others. 
 

I suppose it’s early to call the move a failure, things can change, but it’s certainly looking like a huge, public failure for the administration at the moment. 

[ixcuincle]

I harp on Biden for being a mediocre president, but the fact is he is trying to tiptoe between being an Israel shill and holding Israel accountable.

 

 

 

I don't think he can win on this one either way, he's either "Genocide Joe" or not doing enough to support Israel, there is no in between

[Fergasun]

.@ixcuincle

The guy you quoted works for a  "pro-Israel think tank."

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, Captain Wiggles said:

 

This argument sounds very familiar. Wonder where I've heard it before. Oh right....

 

 

The arguments aren’t the same. He is saying that American did wrong, therefore we can’t complain when other countries do it. I am saying if we are going to hold countries accountable (which I think we should, if) we should hold them accountable equally.

 

He is right that America has a lot of blood on it’s hands.
 

He is wrong to use it justify Russians actions, not chiefly because it is morally wrong, but because it against the interests of the United States.🇺🇸

Edited May 9 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Renegade7]

4 hours ago, tshile said:

So while Biden is stopping one shipment, another shipment valued at 870 million is going out the door to Israel now. 
 

I just don’t understand the strategy here. 

 

Maybe they know something we dont...I agree it's whack if it makes it there and they continue invading Rafah.

 

I once had a manager tell me it's nearly impossible to have influence in a situation like that without leverage... not first time I've head that.

Edited May 9 by Renegade7

[Renegade7]

My experience a good way to find out who your friends really are is tell them no when they ask for something and watch what they do.

Edited May 9 by Renegade7

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Maybe they know something we dont...I agree it's whack if it makes it there and they continue invading Rafah.

 

I once had a manager tell me it's nearly impossible to have influence in a situation like that without leverage... not first time I've head that.

if I recall the segment on WTOP correctly:

it comes down to what the source/order of the funds/munitions is
 

what wasn’t clear to me is whether the issue was that he can’t touch it because the order came in a way that requires congress, or whether he’s simply chipping away at it and does have the ability to stop more. 
 

sorry but I find that stuff hard to keep track of and I didn’t even catch the whole segment but that was the gist of it 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

My experience a good way to find out who your friends really are is tell them no when ask for something and watch what they do.

I’ve said several times I don’t think they’re a good ally. 
 

My reasoning is mostly based on us having little influence with them. If they generally want the same thing they kinda do what we want, but if we’re at odds they have no problem doing whatever they want. 
 

given the money, arms, the context of their existence in the Middle East, the decades they’ve survived simply because we help them… they continue to survive because everyone believes if someone does something we’ll show up immediately and stomp them out… I think they owe at least following our needs and wants on a foreign policy level. 
 

but they don’t. There’s a good argument made that the reasons stuxnet became public is because Israel got super aggressive with it when we told them not to, and it wound up in a researchers honeypot. (Edit: for what it’s worth, I believe this is the leading theory by faaaar, among tech people that followed the story. USA denies any involvement publicly. There is a solid documentary on it for those interested)
 

they foiled an incredibly expensive, amazing, and meaningful intelligence operation that we most like funded entirely and contributed 90% of the work - because they’re stupid aggressive and lack control or loyalty to us. 
 

Israel is like that one buddy you got that if you’re out and he gets in a fight, you take a few steps back thinking “I don’t know what happened here to start a fight but he probably deserves what’s about to happen, gonna sit this one out”

 

 

Edited May 9 by tshile

[Fergasun]

Picking up "Son of Fergasun" at college today.  His school has an encampment. We were watching the police clear it out about 20 minutes ago.  Downwind of the teargas.... yay.  That stuff carries.

 

They were still protesting while getting sprayed by tear gas and the pepper balls. We just happened to be there... (he wanted to watch).  Cop was announcing unlawful assembly for 20 minutes. Protestor was "Why are you shooting us... we are a peaceful protest!!".  While I am sympathetic with their message -- I am not gonna put myself in that position. That is dedication.

[TheGreatBuzz]

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Use that noodle, coeds!

 

 

[Corcaigh]

13 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

Who is stating that October 7 would be Palestinian Independence Day?