Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

What happens if they're attacked? I like getting more aid in but want to hear more details. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Betcha anything Hamas attacks it.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Guys, this is about the state of the union. To appease those “non committed” lefties. I doubt it makes a huge difference in the ground…

 

if you read the article almost all the details have been “undecided” or “still to be negotiated”…

Edited March 7 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Fergasun]

Good move.  

 

How much more does he need to bend for the "uncommited" to  commit?  He's the most pro-Palestine President ever... even though yes, he will proclaim he is a "Zionist".  

 

I am fairly certain the guy who has been in tons of elections has a plan to win this one.  But I still wonder if the uncommited voters are truly so or BS astroturfers...

[Fergasun]

35 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Betcha anything Hamas attacks it.

If we are being honest there's some non-zero chance Israel bombs it first.

 

 

[tshile]

I really hope he’s not putting us troops in harm’s way just to please a voting group. That would be grossly irresponsible. 
 

if it’s the right thing to do, if it’s in the best interest of the country, then do it. But for votes? I have a problem with that. 

Honestly it feels impeachment worthy; borderline  removal from office worthy. 

[Fergasun]

@tshile

it is also the right thing to do. 

 

Please see my other posts about need for a multi-lateral peacekeeping force.  This is one step in that direction.  Troops on the ground provide some good faith action.

[@DCGoldPants]

1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Betcha anything Hamas attacks it.

 

Sadly, this was my first thought too.

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@tshile

it is also the right thing to do. 

 

Please see my other posts about need for a multi-lateral peacekeeping force.  This is one step in that direction.  Troops on the ground provide some good faith action.

yeah I’m familiar with your posts. 
 

but you and someone else specifically said it was for placating a voting bloc. 
 

that’s grossly irresponsible. I’m sure even if that is the reason, he’d hide behind it being the right thing to do. But the timing certainly supports the votes idea. troops are not to be used to get votes, and people supporting the idea are reprehensible. 
 

I also find the anonymous admin officials saying they won’t put troops on the ground sort of bewildering. How does the us open a port and maintain control without putting troops there? Just a question I have reading it. Guess he’ll elaborate in the SOTU. 
 

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

10 minutes ago, tshile said:

yeah I’m familiar with your posts. 
 

but you and someone else specifically said it was for placating a voting bloc. 

The announcement is to please a voting bloc.

As far as actually doing it, that’s a different story. But there doesn’t seem to be an actual plan in place to actually deliver aid, at least according to that politico article. Which is why I think this is more to appease a voting bloc than to get aid into Gaza.

Edited March 7 by CousinsCowgirl84

[tshile]

The idea they’re doing this just to please the voting bloc certainly lines up with things enough to make sense. The fact they don’t have a plan and appear to be rushing an announcement out the door so they can capitalize on the SOTU certainly helps support that idea. add to it how he limited our response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and it seems out of step. 

the idea also may just be a run of the mill conspiracy theory.
 

Doing it for votes is grossly irresponsible and deserving of impeachment. Moving us troops into harm’s way for votes is abhorrent. 
 

idk whether that’s why he’s doing it, but people suggested it, which is why I commented on that. 
 

 

[Larry]

Granted, it's using an internet blogger as a source of news that's at least new to me.  But it is, at least, news that's new to me. 

 

 

 

The gist is that supposedly Biden has given an interview which at least implies that the US might cut off some military aid to Israel. (And that he fears that a lot of places might chop the quote off, and make it look like he said the exact opposite.)

 

And he says that a lot of the interview supposedly matches with what the US has been saying in private, to Israel, for months. 

 

-----

 

And I'll observe that this matches with something that I think I know, about how foreign policy is done. 

 

I think it was done in a Clancy novel. Some experienced State Department Dude is speaking to Dr Ryan, about some summit meeting they're attending. And he says that these things look boring as he'll. But they are actually very subtle dances. 

 

He says that some spokesman for Side 1 will spend an hour, saying things that everyone in the room has heard before. 

 

And then a spokesman for Side 2 will spend an hour, saying his side's talking points. 

 

Then a second spokesman for Side 1 will stand, and recite what the first spokes man said. Word for word identical. 

 

And this might continue for a day or longer. 

 

Until, the ninth spokesman for Side 1 makes a speech. And one word is changed.

 

And Side 2 will pounce on that change.  Try to figure out what that change might signal or imply. Analyze it from 11 different perspectives. 

 

And, a few hours later, Side 2 will change 3 words in their speech.

 

-----

 

Summary: It's an Internet blogger, analyzing the hell out of a few words in an interview. Not exactly set in stone. 

 

But maybe . . . .

Edited March 10 by Larry

[Barry.Randolphe]

We wouldn't need to build a port, etc if the stupid zionist Israelis would stop blocking the aid trucks from delivering aid with 'human shields' (aka children)

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-israelis-aid-trucks-protests/index.html

 

Quote

The protests are being led by the “Tsav 9” movement, a grouping of demobilized reservists, families of hostages and settlers. Its name, meaning “Order 9,” is a reference to the emergency mobilization notices that call up reservists.

 

The protesters say they fear the aid is helping militants still holding their friends and relatives hostage, five months after the murderous cross-border raids led by Hamas that killed about 1,200 people in Israel with 200 more being taken prisoner. They hope preventing food and supplies from entering Gaza will force Hamas to release them. A recent poll by the Israel Democracy Institute found that two-thirds of Jewish Israelis support their view opposing the transfer of humanitarian aid into Gaza.

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

We wouldn't need to build a port, etc if the stupid zionist Israelis would stop blocking the aid trucks from delivering aid with 'human shields' (aka children)

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/08/middleeast/gaza-israelis-aid-trucks-protests/index.html

 

 

And all Hamas would have to do to help their people would be to release the hostages. It’s a shame they won’t do it. But sure, blame it on Israel.

 

I don’t think there is justification for the Israeli Government to block aid but I can certainly sympathize with Israelis people who feel the way they do.

 

Protestors in America block access to hospitals, the ability for EMS to do their jobs, shut down highways ect. But not many here would call them stupid for doing so, because those protestors match the political bent of those same people.

Edited March 10 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Barry.Randolphe]

7 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

And all Hamas would have to do to help their people would be to release the hostages. It’s a shame they won’t do it. But sure, blame it on Israel.

 

I don’t think there is justification for the Israeli Government to block aid but I can certainly sympathize with Israelis people who feel the way they do.

 

Protestors in America block access to hospitals, the ability for EMS to do their jobs, shut down highways ect. But not many here would call them stupid for doing so, because those protestors match the political bent of those same people.

 

You keep saying that. Hamas has offered to release the hostages multiple times; Israel has rejected it. Israel's goal is genocide. Even if Hamas released hostages tomorrow, the war wouldn't stop until the Israelis have completely eradicated the area of any Palestinian life. I'm not on Hamas' side here, I'm pro-Palestinian life. You're looking at this through the lens of only what happened October 7th as if there weren't events leading up to it.

 

Quote

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/

 

Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that rules Gaza, proposed a ceasefire of 4-1/2 months, during which all hostages would go free, Israel would withdraw its troops from Gaza and an agreement would be reached on an end to the war.

 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

4 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

You keep saying that. Hamas has offered to release the hostages multiple times; Israel has rejected it.
 

This isn’t true. They only offered to release them in exchange for a permanent cease fire, which is what was in place prior to the October attacks.

 

You are arguing that Hamas be allowed to attack Israel, and that Israel shouldn’t respond.

 

The situation is in Palestine wasn’t in crisis before October 7 regardless of whatever bad stuff Israel was doing.

 

It is now because Hamas won’t release the hostages because they care more about saving themselves that saving their fellow Palestinians.

 

[Barry.Randolphe]

1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

This isn’t true. They only offered to release them in exchange for a permanent cease fire, which is what was in place prior to the October attacks.

 

You are arguing that Hamas be allowed to attack Israel, and that Israel shouldn’t respond.

 

The situation is in Palestine wasn’t in crisis before October 7 regardless of whatever bad stuff Israel was doing.

 

It is now because Hamas won’t release the hostages because they care more about saving themselves that saving their fellow Palestinians.

 

 

....I literally just posted the article about the offer. It is true. Netanyahu doesn't want to accept the offer because they aren't done committing genocide since they've been given carte blanche in response to October 7th by the international community, but that has changed lately due to the UK, Netherlands, and ICJ.

 

I am arguing that enough is enough. They got their punch back, then they took it way too far, lied about evidence of command centers in hospitals, starved children in hospitals to death, etc.

 

The 'situation in Palestine' is a wider issue (Israel is currently selling off land that isn't theirs in the West Bank right now https://ca.news.yahoo.com/palestine-not-sale-israeli-event-090000805.html). The situation in Gaza is an open air prison - it has been an issue for many years...go watch Anthony Bourdain's piece on it. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

7 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

....I literally just posted the article about the offer. It is true.

it says exactly what I said. Hamas attacks Israel, takes hostages, offers to return them, and demand Israel not respond. That’s a joke.

 

7 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

I am arguing that enough is enough. They got their punch back, then they took it way too far, lied about evidence of command centers in hospitals, starved children in hospitals to death, etc.

 

none of this is true. They have found networks of tunnels under hospitals. 

 

 

Look, I agree with you that there are no legitimate reasons for the Israeli government to withhold aid to Palestinians.
 

But at the same time I understand the Israeli protestors anger with Hamas and understand more aid would get into Gaza with a temporary cease fire. Or hamas could surrender completely. Hamas isn’t interested in any of that. They have chosen to create the crisis in Palestine.
 

Israel isn’t interested in going out of their way to mitigate it, but Hamas is the only  groups capable of ending it, and they are choosing not to.

[Barry.Randolphe]

13 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

none of this is true. They have found networks of tunnels under hospitals. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

Quote

The claims were remarkably specific — that five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities; that the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters; and that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards. The assertions were backed by “concrete evidence,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said as he laid out the case in an Oct. 27 briefing.

 

After storming the complex on Nov. 15, the IDF released a series of photographs and videos that it said proved its central point.

 

“Terrorists came here to command their operations,” Hagari said in a video published Nov. 22, guiding viewers through an underground tunnel, illuminating dark and empty rooms beneath al-Shifa.

 

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.

The Post’s analysis shows:

• The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
• None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
• There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.

 

Your issue is that you believe what the Israelis report....they're notorious for lying, getting caught in their lies, and then changing the narrative. See the killing of Shiren Abu Akleh as a recent example.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

10 minutes ago, Barry.Randolphe said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

 

Your issue is that you believe what the Israelis report....they're notorious for lying, getting caught in their lies, and then changing the narrative. See the killing of Shiren Abu Akleh as a recent example.

I mean, there was video of it.

[PeterMP]

10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

They only offered to release them in exchange for a permanent cease fire, which is what was in place prior to the October attacks.

 

But at the same time I understand the Israeli protestors anger with Hamas

 

Can you please point to the agreement in place that backed up this permanent cease fire?  The Oslo accords was the last serious agreement and everybody agrees that prior to the Oct. attacks that they were dead as both sides had violated them, and Hamas wasn't even part of that agreement.

 

Understanding something doesn't mean that it is right or that you defend it.

 

Do you also understand Palestinian anger at Israeli for their continued expansion of settlements even when it means using violence to take land from Palestinians?

 

Are you going to understand future Palestinian attacks because Israelis are preventing aid from reaching innocent Palestinians now?

 

(Did Hamas really create the crisis or have Palestinians in Gaza been in a crisis for generations now? (That yes has gotten worse since Oct.))

[CousinsCowgirl84]

46 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

Do you also understand Palestinian anger at Israeli for their continued expansion of settlements even when it means using violence to take land from Palestinians?

 

yes.

 

46 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Are you going to understand future Palestinian attacks because Israelis are preventing aid from reaching innocent Palestinians now?

 

In the same way as I understand the Israeli protestors, I would. That’s why any government that is set up for the Palestinian state after war needs to be able place blame on Hamas and other terrorist organizations, because their anger should be directed at Hamas, not Israel. 
 

 

46 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

(Did Hamas really create the crisis or have Palestinians in Gaza been in a crisis for generations now? (That yes has gotten worse since Oct.))

I guess you can say acute crisis. The crisis that everyone is worried about now.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Edit: unconfirmed info

 

Edited March 12 by TheGreatBuzz

[tshile]

On 3/11/2024 at 7:21 AM, PeterMP said:

Do you also understand Palestinian anger at Israeli for their continued expansion of settlements even when it means using violence to take land from Palestinians?

 

yes

 

On 3/11/2024 at 7:21 AM, PeterMP said:

Are you going to understand future Palestinian attacks because Israelis are preventing aid from reaching innocent Palestinians now?

Yes

 

this is fun. I also understand why Israel is doing what they’re doing. I’m actually surprised they haven’t done worse, and if they did or decide to I’ll understand why. 
 

The interesting part of situations like this is you can find blame for both sides, as well as sympathy.