2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Daniel.redskins]

1 hour ago, bird_1972 said:

 

These two points stick out most to me (we knew the OL was gonna blow, unfortunately). 

 

Chase Young is quickly approaching bust territory. What a huge disappointment - I am growing to hate this FO's personnel moves but they may look like geniuses for not picking of the 5th year option in the face of a lot of criticism.

 

Reaching for Jamin Davis with a first rounder will be seen as the penultimate testament against this FO - and that's saying a lot considering Mathis looks like a total reach/bust and Quan Martin looked lost against backups in his first game (and we could have had an OL instead of him!!)

Bingo!  Should have traded Chase for a second this off-season.  We can't afford him and Sweat anyways.  Rivera is so stubborn with his draft picks.  Also didn't need two DBs back to back last draft.  Should have gone oline in the second.  

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

How did he survive the Super Bowl against the vaunted Eagles front line? We have him for 3 years at 24 mil so we better coach his ass up. 

 

It was the game of his life, characterized like that by plenty.  Now @Koolblue13 would say also say aided by a slick-slippery field.

 

Like any mediocre player (some say less less than mediocre) the mediocrity is rarely a straight line of it -- its typically bad days, good days, etc in the mix.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Simmsy]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I normally don’t get up in arms about sideline demeanor, but it didn’t sit well with me how jovial he was after getting his ass whipped over and over again.  I don’t expect him to cry, and realize he’s a vet, but the optics were poor.

 

I used to feel this way, but not any longer. We always praise football players for making mistakes, putting that behind them and having a great game. You can't put it behind you if you're too busy trying to look suicidal on the sidelines because some fans think you should feel bad.

 

11 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Bingo!  Should have traded Chase for a second this off-season.  We can't afford him and Sweat anyways.  Rivera is so stubborn with his draft picks.  Also didn't need two DBs back to back last draft.  Should have gone oline in the second.  

 

We never would've gotten a second for him at that time...or probably any time at this point.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Just now, Simmsy said:

We never would've gotten a second for him at that time...or probably any time at this point.

Not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. I don’t think Chase’s story is fully written yet. He had a horrific injury. Let’s see how he looks when the season starts. 

[MartinC]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think words can describe how bad Wylie was last night. Really. The dude was awful. He made the revolving door we had at guard and that Martin guy at center look competent.

How did Paul do? I didn’t focus on him too much. 

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

These two points stick out most to me (we knew the OL was gonna blow, unfortunately). 

 

Chase Young is quickly approaching bust territory. What a huge disappointment - I am growing to hate this FO's personnel moves but they may look like geniuses for not picking of the 5th year option in the face of a lot of criticism.

 

Reaching for Jamin Davis with a first rounder will be seen as the penultimate testament against this FO - and that's saying a lot considering Mathis looks like a total reach/bust and Quan Martin looked lost against backups in his first game (and we could have had an OL instead of him!!)

I focused on Young on quite a few of his snaps. I’m not sure where this narrative he was awful is coming from. He didn’t look like prime Reggie White or anything but I thought he showed burst and strength. 
 

He got into the LT a few times and put him on skates with a bull rush and beat him both inside and outside to create pressures. He has to finish better (which has been something I’ve felt about him even when he was dominating in College). 
 

There were a couple of snaps when he was just dancing with the blocker - but we don’t know if he was being asked on those snaps to just control, read and shed. 
 

I was broadly encouraged by what I saw from Young.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

How did Paul do? I didn’t focus on him too much. 

I wasn’t focused on him either but from what I saw “meh”. Not good. Not horrible. About what I expected. 
 

I’d  have to watch in more detail but I can’t because NFL+ premium is a rip off

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I wasn’t focused on him either but from what I saw “meh”. Not good. Not horrible. About what I expected. 
 

I’d  have to watch in more detail but I can’t because NFL+ premium is a rip off

For an organisation the size and profile of the NFL their digital service and solutions are an embarrassment!

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I focused on Young on quite a few of his snaps. I’m not sure where this narrative he was awful is coming from. He didn’t look like prime Reggie White or anything but I thought he showed burst and strength. 
 

He got into the LT a few times and put him on skates with a bull rush and beat him both inside and outside to create pressures. He has to finish better (which has been something I’ve felt about him even when he was dominating in College). 
 

There were a couple of snaps when he was just dancing with the blocker - but we don’t if he was being asked on those snaps to just control, read and shed. 
 

I was broadly encouraged by what I saw from Young.

I focused on Young, too. And he wasn’t terrible. But he wasn’t good, either. He was a decent NFL DE who continued to do the things he does well and continued to do the things he does poorly.

 

He really doesn’t use his hands for ****. That reach block by Njoku was crazy. He didn’t even try to swipe or extend. Just got blocked.

 

The missed sack was a really athletic rep until Watson slipped.

 

Everything else was what we’ve seen from Young. He hasn’t been worthy of the #2 pick, but he has the flashes that make you realize why he was. If the guy would take every rep more seriously (preseason so he still may) and use his hands he’s going to be really good.

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I focused on Young, too. And he wasn’t terrible. But he wasn’t good, either. He was a decent NFL DE who continued to do the things he does well and continued to do the things he does poorly.

 

He really doesn’t use his hands for ****. That reach block by Njoku was crazy. He didn’t even try to swipe or extend. Just got blocked.

 

The missed sack was a really athletic rep until Watson slipped.

 

Everything else was what we’ve seen from Young. He hasn’t been worthy of the #2 pick, but he has the flashes that make you realize why he was. If the guy would take every rep more seriously (preseason so he still may) and use his hands he’s going to be really good.

The potential from Young is off the scales. But the production just doesn’t match his physical skills. 

 

When he gets into a T they just can’t match him physically and he just walks them back. But then he doesn’t disengage and get to the QB -

which is the objective! He shows he can beat his man with counter moves and get hands on but too often he doesn’t wrap up. 
 

He sets the edge well and is great in pursuit - but when the play comes to him too often again he doesn’t shed and finish. 
 

It’s frustrating. But he wasn’t awful last night at all - and it was encouraging to see he seems to have that burst back.

[FootballZombie]

-Starting Oline scares the bejeebus outta me. Its full of fail.

-Somehow the backup Oline is serviceable, there were hiccups but I can live w/ what I got from them.

-Liked what I saw from 2 of my QBs. Fromm was really poor.

-Not very happy with EB in terms of 1st team stuff. His first points were a safety and he could only squeeze like 25 yards b4 he got to play our 1s vs backups.

-Percy Butler and Holmes were everywhere in a good way. Quan was everywhere in a bad way.

-I wanna cut Dax before cut down day

-QBs that are hard to bring down are gonna be a problem for this D again

-C Rod is built to look like a god in preseason. Man avg 7.8 ypc

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

The potential from Young is off the scales. But the production just doesn’t match his physical skills. 

 

When he gets into a T they just can’t match him physically and he just walks them back. But then he doesn’t disengage and get to the QB -

which is the objective! He shows he can beat his man with counter moves and get hands on but too often he doesn’t wrap up. 
 

He sets the edge well and is great in pursuit - but when the play comes to him too often again he doesn’t shed and finish. 
 

It’s frustrating. But he wasn’t awful last night at all - and it was encouraging to see he seems to have that burst back.

I can tell you what I didn’t love… the 3-4 with a true nose and Young as an OLB.

 

You’re either sacrificing his ability to pass rush or putting him out in coverage as a liability. I don’t know why this regime keeps thinking that’s the way Young should be used… because he’s athletic and can burst?

 

He’s definitely capable of getting into space and making a play but you’re subtracting what he’s best at to do that.

[MartinC]

Just now, KDawg said:

I can tell you what I didn’t love… the 3-4 with a true nose and Young as an OLB.

 

You’re either sacrificing his ability to pass rush or putting him out in coverage as a liability. I don’t know why this regime keeps thinking that’s the way Young should be used… because he’s athletic and can burst?

 

He’s definitely capable of getting into space and making a play but you’re subtracting what he’s best at to do that.

He’s a 4-3 DE. Period.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

-Starting Oline scares the bejeebus outta me. Its full of fail.

-Somehow the backup Oline is serviceable, there were hiccups but I can live w/ what I got from them.

-Liked what I saw from 2 of my QBs. Fromm was really poor.

-Not very happy with EB in terms of 1st team stuff. His first points were a safety and he could only squeeze like 25 yards b4 he got to play our 1s vs backups.

-Percy Butler and Holmes were everywhere in a good way. Quan was everywhere in a bad way.

-I wanna cut Dax before cut down day

-QBs that are hard to bring down are gonna be a problem for this D again

-C Rod is built to look like a god in preseason. Man avg 7.8 ypc

Great point on Quan. I didn’t want to bring him up because I haven’t exactly been the biggest fan of the pick (though I did like his talent and understand he is doing a lot of movement as a rookie and going to take time).

 

But I couldn’t help but say (sorry everyone who hates this) “geez, Mauch would have been much better.”

[Panninho]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I focused on Young, too. And he wasn’t terrible. But he wasn’t good, either. He was a decent NFL DE who continued to do the things he does well and continued to do the things he does poorly.

 

He really doesn’t use his hands for ****. That reach block by Njoku was crazy. He didn’t even try to swipe or extend. Just got blocked.

 

The missed sack was a really athletic rep until Watson slipped.

 

Everything else was what we’ve seen from Young. He hasn’t been worthy of the #2 pick, but he has the flashes that make you realize why he was. If the guy would take every rep more seriously (preseason so he still may) and use his hands he’s going to be really good.

 

I mean he played only 4 snaps. On one of them he destroyed a very capable LT with his hands in a way I haven't seen in a long time from him.

 

You know way more about Football than me but this sounds very negative to me when he basically played only 1 series of downs yesterday. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

31 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

used to feel this way, but not any longer. We always praise football players for making mistakes, putting that behind them and having a great game. You can't put it behind you if you're too busy trying to look suicidal on the sidelines because some fans think you should feel bad.

Nobody is asking for him to be looking suicidal or anything even remotely close, but dude appeared to be having the time of his life.

 

Let’s hope he was so carefree because he knows he’s going to be much better next time around.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But playing along, his PFF scores aren't that good.   If you take his last three years, he's in the 50s as a pass blocker.  That's not good.  Overall in the last three years, he barely hit 60 average which is just meh. I didn't feel like diving deeper but on first glance looks like his scores were better at guard.  Last year wasn't anything hot PFF wise.  

 

I don't pay for PFF, so I'm just looking at his overall scores for each season and they are:

22 - 63

21 - 67

20 - 55

19 - 67

18 - 66

 

Looks like 2020 was the only season where they had Wylie graded below average.  Otherwise he's pretty consistently graded above average.  I think the fact that he hit seven to eight AV in seasons where he played starter's snaps reinforces the picture that he's consistently been an above average starter over his career.  I think the angst about him is overblown and that his career baseline suggests he's going to be fine.  Especially since he's presumably staying in roughly the same system here with EB.

 

The things with the line I'm worried about Paul's readiness, and Gates's durability and blocking range.  I like Gates from a personality/tone setting perspective, just holding my breath that he'll stay healthy.  I like Chris Paul's physical talent, but I do worry a bit about his processing speed.  Especially since he's been in and out of the lineup in practice.  He's going to have growing pains and mess up Gates and Leno, but I'm still hopeful he'll make rapid strides with playing time.

 

If the rest of our team was like the OL, then I would get the negativity about our season more.  But it's not.  The DL is elite.  The secondary is loaded in talent and they're probably going to gel into a high level unit this season.  The offensive skill positions are rock solid.  Quarterback looks promising.  And FWIW, the OL is better than last year's IMO.  It's not going to be good, but they can certainly be passable.  And on top of the roster upgrades, our offensive coaching got so much better.  Guys like BRob and Howell are so much more likely to hit their ceilings now.  I think this team is legitimately good and that all of the gloomy, pessimistic assessments of our roster and coaching are way off.  I can tell they are based on the fact that the national media thinks Sam Howell is the worst starting QB in the NFL, they have no idea what we see in him, and that the decision to go with him is inexplicable and certain to get our FO fired.  They're just wrong about that IMO.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Panninho said:

 

I mean he played only 4 snaps. On one of them he destroyed a very capable LT with his hands in a way I haven't seen in a long time from him.

 

You know way more about Football than me but this sounds very negative to me when he basically played only 1 series of downs yesterday. 

 

When you play one series that’s all we have to evaluate. Like I said, he had good burst and had a great rep on that missed sack. The reach block was awful. Otherwise he was “fine”.

 

We’ll see how he plays when the lights come on. I think he’s going to take it up another gear.

[FootballZombie]

I thought Chase's series was one that was very indicative of our edges. It will probably score well from an analytic standpoint, but where it was lacking was impact.

 

We need Young to be great, not good. Beating the LT and getting a pressure looks great on paper, but we are at the point were he needs to finish and get a sack. That play were he went thru the LT like swiss cheese, Watson ran for 9 yards.

 

Chase did a lot of the things we ask of him, he just needs to tweak that last thing and turn a few of his plays into impact plays. If he got that sack, nobody would be complaining right now.

[bird_1972]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

When you play one series that’s all we have to evaluate. Like I said, he had good burst and had a great rep on that missed sack. The reach block was awful. Otherwise he was “fine”.

 

We’ll see how he plays when the lights come on. I think he’s going to take it up another gear.

 

I sure hope so. Would love to eat my words.

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It was the game of his life, characterized like that by plenty.  Now @Koolblue13 would say also say aided by a slick-slippery field.

 

Like any mediocre player (some say less less than mediocre) the mediocrity is rarely a straight line of it -- its typically bad days, good days, etc in the mix.

Amazing how holding calls get called, when you don't play for the Chiefs.

[XxSpearheadxX]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

Chase did a lot of the things we ask of him, he just needs to tweak that last thing and turn a few of his plays into impact plays. If he got that sack, nobody would be complaining right now.

I wonder how long he would have played if he hadn't got the "stinger"

[moondog]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Great point on Quan. I didn’t want to bring him up because I haven’t exactly been the biggest fan of the pick (though I did like his talent and understand he is doing a lot of movement as a rookie and going to take time).

 

But I couldn’t help but say (sorry everyone who hates this) “geez, Mauch would have been much better.”

Everything I’ve heard is that Mauch has looked great in camp. 
 

That being said the report on him last night was that he struggled quite a bit and had a holding penalty and a false start. 
 

Sounds like both of them had a bit of a rough introduction but I do expect both to be good players. And yes with our safety logjam I do agree Mauch would have made a lot more sense. 

[Simmsy]

3 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. I don’t think Chase’s story is fully written yet. He had a horrific injury. Let’s see how he looks when the season starts. 

 

Dude, I get he's been injured and all, but at some point you have to produce. He has not, no matter how much you like him or what you think he might be doesn't bump up his trade value. Since his injury, up until this moment right now, he has not been worth a 2nd, no matter how you spin it.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

14 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

Since his injury, up until this moment right now, he has not been worth a 2nd, no matter how you spin it.

Not sure why this reply is aimed at me. I said he hasn’t been worth a second round pick in a trade, so I didn’t understand why people think we could snap our fingers and get a nice return for him. 
 

So if we can’t trade him for anything worthwhile, the only feasible thing is to play him and see how he does. 
 

I agree he has been a disappointment. But I also understand that he only played four snaps last night so trying to extrapolate that into a whole season is foolish.