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2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Sam Monson has an interesting peice that he did back in June and adjusts as camp/season goes on.  Admittedly, he's one that will say more positive things about Commanders (often Junkies guest).  He's got Caroline in the teens and Jets low 20's.  One that sticks out to me is NYG at 29. 😂

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-2023-offseason

 

Giants O line is similar to the Vikings, good run blocking unit but poor pass blocking unit.   Neal is part of their issues, he had a rough rookie season.

 

I recall though Thomas didn't have a good rookie season, though not as bad as Neal's season.  Now he's considered by most a top 5 tackle.  Now Giant fans on twitter say thank god they got Thomas and not Chase.  So for the moment the tables have turned on that front. 

 

JMS according to some reporters have had a good camp, and supposedly he was the only dude who played well for them in the preseason game on the O line.

 

At least based on buzz, they had a good off season.  D. Banks has had an up and down camp based on what I read but apparently he was lights out in the preseason game.  Hyatt with a big camp.  JMS, too.  Looks like at a minimum they will have three starters from this draft class this year.  Juxtaposed to the likely one starter for 2023 for this team.  And if Waller leaves up to his hype and stays healthy -- maybe the national pundits aren't off that they are the better team.  I do like the Giants off season better than ours.

 

As for Monson he didn't here give much sunshine for this team.   Projected Stromberg as the starter, that's not happening.

 

But yeah agree in the past he has.  He's been on with Sheehan, too.  He loved the Fitz signing for example back in the day.

 

27. WASHINGTON COMMANDERS (DOWN 7)

Projected Starting Lineup

LT Charles Leno Jr.
LG Nick Gates
C Ricky Stromberg – Rookie
RG Samuel Cosmi – Played RT in 2022
RT Andrew Wylie

  • Another line with significant turnover, Washington is likely changing four starters between new acquisitions and position switches.
  • Last season’s group had very little in the way of continuity, but so much change doesn’t help the adjustment of quarterback Sam Howell as he comes in to try and win a starting job long term.
Best Player: Charles Leno Jr.
  • Charles Leno Jr. epitomizes “solid starter” in the NFL, but that means he will lose more often than many like to see. He surrendered eight sacks in 2022 but allowed just 37 pressures overall on 669 pass-blocking snaps.
Edited by Skinsinparadise
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MartinC

MartinC

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27 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Paul's not ready yet.  That's probably the main reason why he's behind Charles on the depth chart.  He is going to take longer than the others to recognize the types of pressures they will face, and to make adjustments.

 

But I can already tell that he's our most talented run blocker.  He is really fast and looks good running.  I wish Nick Gates had his speed.  That missed screen block on Owusu-Koromoah was the demonstration of the limit of Gates's range.  There was no chance he could reach that hard of a block on a linebacker with that kind of speed. It's not hard to smell a rat in that situation either, especially when the C is the only one who stayed at the LoS, so there is no way to keep the LB from getting a quick diagnosis.  But Paul might have gotten there if he'd been at C.

 

I think we just need to play Paul and hope he can work through his mistakes quickly and learn on the go.

 

I wonder if the long term plan for Braeden Daniels is at guard or tackle?  He's similar to Paul in athleticism, which seems to suggest a future at guard.  But if we want to have someone who can mirror speedy guys on the outside better, these are probably the two best guys for that.

 I watched Paul a lot in the game. As you say his run blocking is very good but his pass pro is very much a work in progress. He gets walked back by NFL DTs bull rush and when he’s not covered he’s slow to recognize where he needs to find work. 
 

I think teams will target him with twists/stunts and delayed blitz looks. 
 

But I agree with you 100% I’d play him and help him develop in those areas. 

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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8 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

They probably signed Gates to be a steady hand at center.  Larsen is the steady backup.  Our season went down the tubes when Larsen got injured last year.  Hopefully a year of strength training and studying allows Stromberg to take the reigns next year.

 

I'm with you GC.  Give Paul the reps now to see if he can sink or swim.  Having two athletic guards in Cosmi & Paul will improve the run game for sure.  

 

Yeah Gates is big old anchor at C, and a culture guy.  He had a reputation of being something of a leader and tone setter in New York.  He's basically a big slow brawler who should be alright anchoring inside power, but he's not going to have any real range to help the run game.  But the biggest boon he can bring to the line is a couple of years of experience snapping and reading fronts.  Some rookies probably have the mind to rapidly learn to read fronts and be a real help to their QB in altering protections (Olu Oluwatimi is the one I'm thinking of), but very few would qualify for that. Thus it's good to have a more seasoned Center in front of a QB with as little experience as Sam Howell.  We're probably want to upgrade Gates sooner than later, and I'm really hoping Stromberg is that guy for us by next season.  But Gates is a decent bridge to that time.

 

Another benefit to playing Paul this year is to see what we have in him long term.  We need to see if he's a viable starting guard, or perhaps even a potential starting RT.  If he bombs, then we'll need to find a strong replacement in FA or the draft next off-season, since our pipeline won't have worked.  If that happens, I can still see a scenario where our OL gets good next off-season by drafting a strong rookie starting OT to play next to Cosmi, and then we bring Wylie inside to play LG.  Or maybe we find a super blue chip LG in an early round of the draft, who can come in and make an immediate impact.

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Always A Commander Never A Captain

Always A Commander Never A Captain

Posted
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11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Giants O line is similar to the Vikings, good run blocking unit but poor pass blocking unit.   Neal is part of their issues, he had a rough rookie season.

 

I recall though Thomas didn't have a good rookie season, though not as bad as Neal's season.  Now he's considered by most a top 5 tackle.  Now Giant fans on twitter say thank god they got Thomas and not Chase.  So for the moment the tables have turned on that front. 

 

JMS according to some reporters have had a good camp, and supposedly he was the only dude who played well for them in the preseason game on the O line.

 

At least based on buzz, they had a good off season.  D. Banks has had an up and down camp based on what I read but apparently he was lights out in the preseason game.  Hyatt with a big camp.  JMS, too.  Looks like at a minimum they will have three starters from this draft class this year.  Juxtaposed to the likely one starter for 2023 for this team.  And if Waller leaves up to his hype and stays healthy -- maybe the national pundits aren't off that they are the better team.  I do like the Giants off season better than ours.

 

As for Monson he didn't here give much sunshine for this team.   Projected Stromberg as the starter, that's not happening.

 

But yeah agree in the past he has.  He's been on with Sheehan, too.  He loved the Fitz signing for example back in the day.

 

27. WASHINGTON COMMANDERS (DOWN 7)

Projected Starting Lineup

LT Charles Leno Jr.
LG Nick Gates
C Ricky Stromberg – Rookie
RG Samuel Cosmi – Played RT in 2022
RT Andrew Wylie

  • Another line with significant turnover, Washington is likely changing four starters between new acquisitions and position switches.
  • Last season’s group had very little in the way of continuity, but so much change doesn’t help the adjustment of quarterback Sam Howell as he comes in to try and win a starting job long term.
Best Player: Charles Leno Jr.
  • Charles Leno Jr. epitomizes “solid starter” in the NFL, but that means he will lose more often than many like to see. He surrendered eight sacks in 2022 but allowed just 37 pressures overall on 669 pass-blocking snaps.

 

Thomas's rookie season was fine given his growth during it. Started out trash but improved throughout the season and ended fine.

 

My understanding is Neal did not show the growth Thomas had.

 

I heard opposite about Banks in the preseason game, but their later round other rookie CB is supposedly a steal. I don't know if this is an indictment on the rest of the line or if JMS really is adapting this fast but I'm hearing he's already their 2nd best OL.

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Going Commando

Going Commando

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9 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 I watched Paul a lot in the game. As you say his run blocking is very good but his pass pro is very much a work in progress. He gets walked back by NFL DTs bull rush and when he’s not covered he’s slow to recognize where he needs to find work. 
 

I think teams will target him with slow twists/stunts and delayed blitz looks. 
 

But I agree with you 100% I’d play him and help him develop in those areas. 

 

I think a line can survive (and even thrive) having one guy learning on the job at a time.  But not more than that.  This year is our chance to do that with Paul.  It really behooves us to go ahead and have Paul go through this process in order to have a much more experienced line for a rookie starter to walk in and play with in 2024.  10 or 11 hundred snaps of seeing what the league has to throw at him is big, and I can see a future where the line is pretty good in '24 just by adding one more guy, so long as Paul plays and we find out he's good enough.  Paul in 23, Stromberg and a rookie tackle behind Leno in 24, that guy moving into the starting lineup in 25.  We have to find out if we need to spend a bunch of money next off-season to find a good free agent left guard or right tackle.

7 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

@Going Commando I seem to recall there were quite a few Giants fans that were upset they let Gates go and that he stayed inside the division. Here’s to hoping he’s a pleasant surprise for us this year.  

I saw some Giants fans on Reddit saying something similar.  He was popular in New York.  I think the way he worked back from that terrible leg injury he suffered against us impressed people, and they were sad to see him go.

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Always A Commander Never A Captain

Always A Commander Never A Captain

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I thought one of the sacks was likely on Howell instead of the OL. Wylie had a rough game, but the rest of the guys were OK. An OK OL isn't going to win every rep, but will hopefully lose slow giving the QB time to react. Thought that generally happened besides Wylie.

 

Going to remember that JOK was talked about as a 1st rounder because of his speed reacting to plays like the one where he beat Gates to the screen. We aren't game planning for specific matchups, in theory during the regular season we'd adjust the screens when against a LB that's good downhill like JOK is.

 

Run game already looks better than last season. Even some runs where the RB wasn't touched until yards past the LoS. Feel like that was a rare occurrence last season.

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MartinC

MartinC

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2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think a line can survive (and even thrive) having one guy learning on the job at a time.  But not more than that.  This year is our chance to do that with Paul.  It really behooves us to go ahead and have Paul go through this process in order to have a much more experienced line for a rookie starter to walk in and play with in 2024.  10 or 11 hundred snaps of seeing what the league has to throw at him is big, and I can see a future where the line is pretty good in '24 just by adding one more guy, so long as Paul plays and we find out he's good enough.  Paul in 23, Stromberg and a rookie tackle behind Leno in 24, that guy moving into the starting lineup in 25.  We have to find out if we need to spend a bunch of money next off-season to find a good free agent left guard or right tackle.


I’ve said a ton that what this line lacks is a blue chip type stud. Even if Paul doesn’t develop if we can draft a blue chip T prospect and Stromberg spends the year in an NFL strength program plus a year of watching and learning we could like up next season with 

 

Rookie LT/Leno, Wylie, Stromberg, Cosmi, Rookie RT/Leno.

 

We could/should also spend some decent free agency dollars and maybe upgrade Leno for someone younger and more athletic. 
 

Im pretty optimistic on Paul though. The tools are there. 
 

On another note it seems oversetting is a theme with this line. Wylie does it a ton as well. Coaching is a thing and I wonder what is being said/done about that in the meeting room and practice field. Upgrading the O’line coaching might be something that’s needed as well.

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

I thought one of the sacks was likely on Howell instead of the OL. 


One definitely was. Sam missed a blitz from a guy who was lined up over the #2 outside the numbers. That one was on him. 

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skinny21

skinny21

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27 minutes ago, MartinC said:


I’ve said a ton that what this line lacks is a blue chip type stud. Even if Paul doesn’t develop if we can draft a blue chip T prospect and Stromberg spends the year in an NFL strength program plus a year of watching and learning we could like up next season with 

 

Rookie LT/Leno, Wylie, Stromberg, Cosmi, Rookie RT/Leno.

 

We could/should also spend some decent free agency dollars and maybe upgrade Leno for someone younger and more athletic. 
 

Im pretty optimistic on Paul though. The tools are there. 
 

On another note it seems oversetting is a theme with this line. Wylie does it a ton as well. Coaching is a thing and I wonder what is being said/done about that in the meeting room and practice field. Upgrading the O’line coaching might be something that’s needed as well.


One definitely was. Sam missed a blitz from a guy who was lined up over the #2 outside the numbers. That one was on him. 

One thing I like about that play (the sack) was the first 2 reads to the left.  As JT shows in the video, Howell turned them both down, somewhat inexplicably, but it reaffirmed to me what Logan Paulsen mentioned a while back - that this offense has multiple options when dealing with pressure… a change from Turner’s offense.

 

As for a future offensive lineup, I’m a sucker for hoping young guys with some potential can develop, and we’ve got (on the bright side) some guys in that vein:  Paul, Stromberg, Daniels, Cosmi, and Brooks.  Hopefully Gates (as a G/C) and Whylie (G/T) get pushed to a backup role and we draft a couple high end rooks - a starting tackle and a guy that can push for a starting job elsewhere (all things considered, a 2nd tackle would be nice).

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KDawg

KDawg

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I find the OL to be interesting in a lot of ways.

 

I think you could improve it immediately by starting Larsen at center, moving Gates to LG and starting Lucas at RT.

 

Is it great? No. But it would be better.

 

Bur if you do that you’re playing a game of Russian Roulette.

 

If Larsen goes down Stromberg has to be ready to go in that situation.

 

You are not developing Paul or Charles in that scenario.

 

And you still need to figure out what to do with Whylie. 
 

Part of me wonders if you could put him at LG and start Lucas… but then you have no tackle depth so that doesn’t work, either. 
 

I haven’t really paid any attention to Mason. Brooks, reports out of camp are good but I’d like to see him against higher end competition. 
 

The line is just a mess that needs 1-2 pieces to improve it fairly significantly. 1 starter and 1 depth piece could change their entire fortune.

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MartinC

MartinC

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I put this in the game thread but will post it here as well.

 

Here is my thought on the 53. I think we will be looking hard at the waiver wire for O’Line and maybe linebacker.

 

QB - Howell, Brissett.

RB - Robinson, Gibson, Rodriquez, Williams.

WR - McLaurin (going out on a limb here!), Dotson, Samuel, Brown, Pringle, Allen.

TR - Thomas, Bates, Turner

OL - Leno, Paul, Gates, Cosmi, Wylie, Lucas, Charles, Larsen, Stromberg, Daniels, Someone not currently on the roster!

 

DL - Young, Allen, Payne, Sweat, Mathis, Ridgeway, Toohill, Smith-Williams, Henry (draft status saves him), Obada.

LB - Davis, Barton, Hudson, Mayo

DB - Fuller, StJuste, Forbes, Kurl, Forrest, Martin, Reaves (special teams!), Butler, Wildgoose, Johnson.

 

Specialists - Slye, Way, Cheesman.

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bird_1972

bird_1972

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I put this in the game thread but will post it here as well.

 

 

Here is my thought on the 53. I think we will be looking hard at the waiver wire for O’Line and maybe linebacker.

 

QB - Howell, Brissett.

RB - Robinson, Gibson, Rodriquez, Williams.

WR - McLaurin (going out on a limb here!), Dotson, Samuel, Brown, Pringle, Allen.

TR - Thomas, Bates, Turner

OL - Leno, Paul, Gates, Cosmi, Wylie, Lucas, Charles, Larsen, Stromberg, Daniels, Someone not currently on the roster!

 

DL - Young, Allen, Payne, Sweat, Mathis, Ridgeway, Toohill, Smith-Williams, Henry (draft stays saves him), Obada.

LB - Davis, Barton, Hudson, Mayo

DB - Fuller, StJuste, Forbes, Kurl, Forrest, Martin, Reaves (special teams!), Butler, Wildgoose, Johnson.

 

Specialists - Slye, Way, Cheesman.

 

Interesting that you don't think we keep 3 QBs. 

 

I hope you're right about us picking up another OL. Wouldn't mind if we did the same for TE as well. 

 

Damn, our LB crew looks weak but our DB depth is on point. I hope that Quan starts looking better.

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MartinC

MartinC

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3 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Interesting that you don't think we keep 3 QBs. 

 

I hope you're right about us picking up another OL. Wouldn't mind if we did the same for TE as well. 

 

Damn, our LB crew looks weak but our DB depth is on point. I hope that Quan starts looking better.


We don’t currently have a 3rd QB worthy of a practice squad spot let alone a place on the 53.

 

We are going to cut very good football players at WR, DL and DB. Meanwhile we will keep guys who are least worst option at OL and LB.

 

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@DCGoldPants

@DCGoldPants

Posted
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14 minutes ago, MartinC said:


We don’t currently have a 3rd QB worthy of a practice squad spot let alone a place on the 53.

 

We are going to cut very good football players at WR, DL and DB. Meanwhile we will keep guys who are least worst option at OL and LB.

 

I think they keep a QB on the PS because while if you get to playing that guy, **** is sideways already. Not even having that probably feels worst when they've had to play 5 guys in a season before. 

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MartinC

MartinC

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10 minutes ago, @DCGoldPants said:

I think they keep a QB on the PS because while if you get to playing that guy, **** is sideways already. Not even having that probably feels worst when they've had to play 5 guys in a season before. 

Oh 100% we will have a 3rd QB on the practice squad. I just don’t think it should be Fromm. 

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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Posted (edited)

Reading on twitter from football pundits that judging by camp looks like its the year of rookie TEs, whether picked high or low in the last draft.  And here we are talking about whether Daniels and Henry actually make the roster. 😢.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, HigSkin said:

yikes!

 

 

He’s a Y TE who can (and is willing) to block. You can’t measure that with a RAS score.

 

That said if he’s makes the 53 (I don’t think he will) it’s a sad indictment of our plan coming into camp at TE.

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