2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Drfustercluck]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Remember when I said that Wylie is absolute trash and posted his garbage from the SB and everyone told me I was over reacting because I'm an Eagles fan?

 

I'll gladly take my apologies tomorrow morning.

 

Wylie blows. 

Yeh, he's bad. Reeeeeeaaaal bad. He looks so lost. I'm gonna start calling him Radio.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Uncool: Wylie.

 

Very uncool: Wylie cutting up on the sidelines in the 4th quarter as if he wasn’t among the worst I’ve seen suit up at the position in a long while.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

All of that is fine.  And kindof irrelevant at this point.  
 

I wanted to wait to see it before jumping to a conclusion. 
 

Well, it’s still early but the results were bad.  So fine, I concede the point the folks watching practice were right and the OL hadn’t looked good.  I never questioned Kevin’s analysis. He did have one pod where he was more positive on the OL, but it was with Bram, who’s an employee of the team.  So, you have to take that with a grain of salt also. 
 

My question now is, can they build on last night’s performance or is that the best they are going to be all year? 
 

And are they going to do anything to bring in guys or switch positions (Lucas for Wylie?) or are they just going to sit pat and pray.  Prayer is not a strategy.

 

I think the next week with the joint practices  with the Ravens will be extremely illuminating.

 

It's irrelevant today.   But the next time someone (especially if its Paulsen) pumps sunshine about how that unit looked in practice and that's echoed here -- I'll be sketpical for reasons I mentioned.

 

And while its impossible to dicipher run blocking assignments when watching the O line -- for example on a gap run, did the pulling guard hit the right assignment, etc -- its not that hard to see if an O lineman wins or loses in pass protect.   You've been on the idea that people have no idea.  But when I see jail breaks on play after play from the D lineman at the practice I was at -- I wasn't confused, its really easy to dicipher. 

 

I didn't really think of it at all until watching that game but it hit me that this D line might be overconfident playing this O line in practice.  The Browns have a good O line.  This defense isn't used to that and it showed when Watson and their first unit was in.  So the Ravens might be good practice for the D line, too.

 

As much as I criticized this O line, I still don't expect it to suck.  I think its likely bad but not awful.  I am with Keim in that its better than last year but he wonders (as do I) whether that's enough for them to be competitive or will it sink their season.  

 

Personally, I think if Howell plays well.  And the rest of the roster plays up to its potential.  They will have a similar ride to last year.  Mediocre record.  My edginess is purely about this is IMO a squandered opportunity because if he did a better job on the O line, they'd have easily reached the record you predict, 10-7, maybe even 11-6.  But am expecting more something like 8-9.

 

And I get we agree to disagree about the schedule.  I just don't buy the concept that as far as we know the Texans could be as good as the Bills, or the Colts better than this years Jets, etc. I agree that odd things will happen for better or worse in some games.  But I don't expect a hard schedule to even out to average or less than that, or vice versa.  It didn't happen that way in the last two seasons -- hard ended up hard, easy ended up easy.  I'd bet it will go true to form for the third season in a row where hard ends up hard.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

I don’t think words can describe how bad Wylie was last night. Really. The dude was awful. He made the revolving door we had at guard and that Martin guy at center look competent.

[Conn]

20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Uncool: Wylie.

 

Very uncool: Wylie cutting up on the sidelines in the 4th quarter as if he wasn’t among the worst I’ve seen suit up at the position in a long while.

*Liev Schreiber Hard Knocks voice*
 

”For Super Bowl winning offensive lineman Andrew Wylie, it’s a chance to show he can handle the pressure…”

 

*cut to scenes of him getting beat, and beat again, and beat again, with Bieniemy screaming at him and throwing his headset*
 

”And while things don’t go as planned in his Commanders debut…”

 

*cut to scenes of Wylie having a grand old time on the sidelines in the 4th quarter. The mic catches a fragment of the Dumb & Dumber quote he loves more than anything “so she says to me, do you love me?” [Charles Leno just look at him with a blank stare] “and I say no, but that’s a real nice ski mask!!” [Wylie laughs alone]*
 

”…sometimes, you just have to let off some steam”

*cuts to an offensive quality control assistant, probably a Rivera cousin, on his hands and knees picking up the pieces of Bieniemy’s broken headset after the game. Wylie is still quoting Dumb & Dumber and laughing to himself*

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Conn

[MartinC]

33 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

All of that is fine.  And kindof irrelevant at this point.  
 

I wanted to wait to see it before jumping to a conclusion. 
 

Well, it’s still early but the results were bad.  So fine, I concede the point the folks watching practice were right and the OL hadn’t looked good.  I never questioned Kevin’s analysis. He did have one pod where he was more positive on the OL, but it was with Bram, who’s an employee of the team.  So, you have to take that with a grain of salt also. 
 

My question now is, can they build on last night’s performance or is that the best they are going to be all year? 
 

And are they going to do anything to bring in guys or switch positions (Lucas for Wylie?) or are they just going to sit pat and pray.  Prayer is not a strategy.

 

I think the next week with the joint practices  with the Ravens will be extremely illuminating.

I’ve said for a while the practices with the Ravens will tell a lot. Starting O’Line is the issue we thought it was but it’s hard to think we will be able to bring anyone else in at this stage of the season who will significantly upgrade the starting 5. I think we will be looking at the cuts and be active on the waiver wire etc but that’s more about improving depth. We might get lucky but teams don’t often let starting quality O’Line walk.

 

So it comes down to improving the performance of what we have. The crumb of comfort is there was no game planning - it was all very vanilla for protections (it was vanilla for defensive scheme as well but let’s gloss over that …). Wylie for example seemed to have issues being beaten inside, there are things we can do to help there such as giving him help outside with a TE or back chipping to allow him to be stronger inside. 
 

It’s going to be an adventure with the line all season and EB is going to have scheme and play call around it.

[Forehead]

About time to dust off that "Predict the final 53" thread.  This is the happiest I've been about the start of a season in awhile.

[HigSkin]

Long listen but some good stuff in here -

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

28 minutes ago, Conn said:

*Liev Schreiber Hard Knocks voice*
 

”For Super Bowl winning offensive lineman Andrew Wylie, it’s a chance to show he can handle the pressure…”

 

*cut to scenes of him getting beat, and beat again, and beat again, with Bieniemy screaming at him and throwing his headset*
 

”And while things don’t go as planned in his Commanders debut…”

 

*cut to scenes of Wylie having a grand old time on the sidelines in the 4th quarter. The mic catches a fragment of the Dumb & Dumber quote he loves more than anything “so she says to me, do you love me?” [Charles Leno just look at him with a blank stare] “and I say no, but that’s a real nice ski mask!!” [Wylie laughs alone]*
 

”…sometimes, you just have to let off some steam”

*cuts to an offensive quality control assistant, probably a Rivera cousin, on his hands and knees picking up the pieces of Bieniemy’s broken headset after the game. Wylie is still quoting Dumb & Dumber and laughing to himself*

 

 

I normally don’t get up in arms about sideline demeanor, but it didn’t sit well with me how jovial he was after getting his ass whipped over and over again.  I don’t expect him to cry, and realize he’s a vet, but the optics were poor.

[Chris 44]

50 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's irrelevant today.   But the next time someone (especially if its Paulsen) pumps sunshine about how that unit looked in practice and that's echoed here -- I'll be sketpical for reasons I mentioned.

 

And while its impossible to dicipher run blocking assignments when watching the O line -- for example on a gap run, did the pulling guard hit the right assignment, etc -- its not that hard to see if an O lineman wins or loses in pass protect.   You've been on the idea that people have no idea.  But when I see jail breaks on play after play from the D lineman at the practice I was at -- I wasn't confused, its really easy to dicipher. 

 

I didn't really think of it at all until watching that game but it hit me that this D line might be overconfident playing this O line in practice.  The Browns have a good O line.  This defense isn't used to that and it showed when Watson and their first unit was in.  So the Ravens might be good practice for the D line, too.

 

As much as I criticized this O line, I still don't expect it to suck.  I think its likely bad but not awful.  I am with Keim in that its better than last year but he wonders (as do I) whether that's enough for them to be competitive or will it sink their season.  

 

Personally, I think if Howell plays well.  And the rest of the roster plays up to its potential.  They will have a similar ride to last year.  Mediocre record.  My edginess is purely about this is IMO a squandered opportunity because if he did a better job on the O line, they'd have easily reached the record you predict, 10-7, maybe even 11-6.  But am expecting more something like 8-9.

 

And I get we agree to disagree about the schedule.  I just don't buy the concept that as far as we know the Texans could be as good as the Bills, or the Colts better than this years Jets, etc. I agree that odd things will happen for better or worse in some games.  But I don't expect a hard schedule to even out to average or less than that, or vice versa.  It didn't happen that way in the last two seasons -- hard ended up hard, easy ended up easy.  I'd bet it will go true to form for the third season in a row where hard ends up hard.

Wonder if this is Aramahs ticket for a roster spot? Good for him but would otherwise suck for multiple reasons.

[redskinss]

Yup, the offensive line looked bad, no doubt about it, especially first string but I think I figured out what bothers me about the piling on a little.

It's all one sided, it's fan outrage all coming from the exact same perspective. 

It's totally justified as they did look bad and most likely because they lack the talent people around here have been calling for for some time now but its still a one sided debate. 

 I'd give my right arm for Rivera, Bienemy and Mayhew to join one of these threads and argue the other side.

For obvious reasons that'll never happen, all we get from them is a generic answer to a generic question at a mostly pointless press conference but it would be awesome if it did happen. 

I'd love to hear the other side of this debate in detail just once, then I could fully make my mind up and probably grab the torches and join the mob.

 

For now I'll take a wait and see approach to when the real bullets are flying, if they struggle but we're still a competitive football team despite it, awesome. 

 

If we're lousy I'll join Kool and the gang and one of ya's can light my torch for me in blasting this staff.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Yup, the offensive line looked bad, no doubt about it, especially first string but I think I figured out what bothers me about the piling on a little.

It's all one sided, it's fan outrage all coming from the exact same perspective. 

It's totally justified as they did look bad and most likely because they lack the talent people around here have been calling for for some time now but its still a one sided debate. 

 I'd give my right arm for Rivera, Bienemy and Mayhew to join one of these threads and argue the other side.

For obvious reasons that'll never happen, all we get from them is a generic answer to a generic question at a mostly pointless press conference but it would be awesome if it did happen. 

I'd love to hear the other side of this debate in detail just once, then I could fully make my mind up and probably grab the torches and join the mob.

 

For now I'll take a wait and see approach to when the real bullets are flying, if they struggle but we're still a competitive football team despite it, awesome. 

 

If we're lousy I'll join Kool and the gang and one of ya's can light my torch for me in blasting this staff.

This puzzles me as words mean nothing.  The way Rivera and the gang defend themselves is by results.  Obviously, one quarter of exhibition football is merely a glimpse, but the results were consistent if not worse than the gallery expected.

[redskinss]

32 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This puzzles me as words mean nothing.  The way Rivera and the gang defend themselves is by results.  Obviously, one quarter of exhibition football is merely a glimpse, but the results were consistent if not worse than the gallery expected.

Yes I realize that, hence the last few paragraphs of my post.

For now words, and what we've seen in the infancy of putting this line and offense together is all we have.

 

You can't tell me you wouldn't kill to sit down at a bar with Rivera and Mayhew and get their perspective on what their 3 year plan was for this line.

It might be a little eye opening to get the truth rather than just the press conference fluff.

Not saying it'd be mind changing but it sure would be nice to get the other half of the debate for once.

 

And yes when the regular season plays out that'll all be moot, results will be the only thing that matters and they'll either be vindicated or persecuted for cause.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by redskinss

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

That game with Wylie juxtaposed with Dawand playing for the Browns brings home, that Rivera may have screwed up for the 2nd year in a row at the O line.  There is more time, granted.   But Rivera has made a series of bad decisions over the years about this unit, and I predict that will end up costing him his job as it should. 

 

Wylie has a track record of playing a lot of solid football.  He struggled last night, but he's a five year vet.  He'll eventually settle in and be fine.  I know you like PFF, so look as his PFF scores for each season.  They tell you the guy is an average to above average starter, and that bears out with the metrics I like to use, as well as his reputation.

 

Looking at the replays of his penalties, the first hold was a reasonable call but the second one that got the safety was BS.  The first hold was no more egregious than what Jedrick Wills got away with on the play where Chase missed the sack.  The safety play was a mess, and Wylie did get beat inside, but he didn't hold and the bigger issue was the missed stunt.  Looked like Paul and Leno got confused.  It's preseason game 1, we were killing the Browns with stunts too.  OLs clearly struggle against them without game planning and preparation.  The refs should not have thrown a flag there though.

 

On the whole, I thought the offense actually looked pretty good.   It's not that the OL can get better, they will get better.  This was always going to take time to build when you turn over four starting spots, and it might be October before they look good and cohesive.  But as long as they stay healthy, they're going to get better.

 

Interesting to see what teams did in this first game in terms of resting their starters.  We didn't healthy scratch anyone, and we played our starters for one and a half quarters.  The Steelers did too.  The Falcons and Dolphins rested almost everyone.  The Browns rested almost all of their important vets on offense except Watson.  They rested Garrett and their corners on D, but kept all of the rest of their ones in almost the entire time our ones on offense were in.  Looked like they were reacting to our personnel on that account.  We have a lot of change happening on our offense, so it makes sense to play them a lot in preseason.  Hopefully it leads to a faster start in the regular season, because that's the key to getting off the 8 win treadmill.  I'm expecting the ones to play the whole first half next week.

[HigSkin]

This will get people going.  😂

 

 

[Going Commando]

Also noticed that the Lions played their ones a lot too.  Dan Campbell trying to get a fast start too.  His first round picks popped big time last night, that draft class for them is probably going to end up being huge despite the fact the talking heads killed them for it.  They don't understand that it's better to draft good players than bad players even if they are running backs and linebackers.  Campbell played Jameson Williams a lot too, but I'm not sure what kind of role he'll have in their offense, if you're tracking him for fantasy football reasons.  TBH, he hasn't really looked that good yet.

[KDawg]

I can see not freaking out about the OL. I get it. Time to gel, gameplan, etc.

 

but if you aren’t concerned I don’t know what alternate universe you’re posting from but can you open a portal for me?

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Wylie has a track record of playing a lot of solid football.  He struggled last night, but he's a five year vet.  He'll eventually settle in and be fine.  I know you like PFF, so look as his PFF scores for each season.  They tell you the guy is an average to above average starter, and that bears out with the metrics I like to use, as well as his reputation.

 

Looking at the replays of his penalties, the first hold was a reasonable call but the second one that got the safety was BS.  The first hold was no more egregious than what Jedrick Wills got away with on the play where Chase missed the sack.  The safety play was a mess, and Wylie did get beat inside, but he didn't hold and the bigger issue was the missed stunt.  Looked like Paul and Leno got confused.  It's preseason game 1, we were killing the Browns with stunts too.  OLs clearly struggle against them without game planning and preparation.  The refs should not have thrown a flag there though.

 

On the whole, I thought the offense actually looked pretty good.   It's not that the OL can get better, they will get better.  This was always going to take time to build when you turn over four starting spots, and it might be October before they look good and cohesive.  But as long as they stay healthy, they're going to get better.

 

Interesting to see what teams did in this first game in terms of resting their starters.  We didn't healthy scratch anyone, and we played our starters for one and a half quarters.  The Steelers did too.  The Falcons and Dolphins rested almost everyone.  The Browns rested almost all of their important vets on offense except Watson.  They rested Garrett and their corners on D, but kept all of the rest of their ones in almost the entire time our ones on offense were in.  Looked like they were reacting to our personnel on that account.  We have a lot of change happening on our offense, so it makes sense to play them a lot in preseason.  Hopefully it leads to a faster start in the regular season, because that's the key to getting off the 8 win treadmill.  I'm expecting the ones to play the whole first half next week.

 

I am in the middle of something, i'll answer a bit more of this later.  His struggles were detailed in camp, too.

 

In short, I am not in love with PFF but don't find it worthless like some here say it is. It's useful somettmes for me as a tool.  i don't live and die with PFF, i've gone against them plenty of times.  But saying they are worrthless as some said here, is a bridge too far for me.

 

But playing along, his PFF scores aren't that good.   If you take his last three years, he's in the 50s as a pass blocker.  That's not good.  Overall in the last three years, he barely hit 60 average which is just meh. I didn't feel like diving deeper but on first glance looks like his scores were better at guard.  Last year wasn't anything hot PFF wise.  

 

I also watched him closely, went back and watched 2 games, detailed it here.  Doesn't make me an expert.  but I'll ride with my opinion for now, he's just a guy at best.   If he proves otherwise, I'll change my mind.    I've changed my mind on some things, I pride myself on not being stuck on a take.  But Wylie has don't nothing yet to make me come off of my current take. 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[bird_1972]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

-Chase Young got reach blocked early and just stayed velcroed to it. Next play he misses a sack. It’s early, but that matched his play from last season. Hopefully it was just jitters.

 

-We had LBs on the field. They didn’t do anything… but they were there. 

 

 

These two points stick out most to me (we knew the OL was gonna blow, unfortunately). 

 

Chase Young is quickly approaching bust territory. What a huge disappointment - I am growing to hate this FO's personnel moves but they may look like geniuses for not picking of the 5th year option in the face of a lot of criticism.

 

Reaching for Jamin Davis with a first rounder will be seen as the penultimate testament against this FO - and that's saying a lot considering Mathis looks like a total reach/bust and Quan Martin looked lost against backups in his first game (and we could have had an OL instead of him!!)

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

penultimate

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think words can describe how bad Wylie was last night. Really. The dude was awful. He made the revolving door we had at guard and that Martin guy at center look competent.

How did he survive the Super Bowl against the vaunted Eagles front line? We have him for 3 years at 24 mil so we better coach his ass up. 

[samy316]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

How did he survive the Super Bowl against the vaunted Eagles front line? We have him for 3 years at 24 mil so we better coach his ass up. 

Mahommes’ ability to escape the pocket and make jaw-dropping, incredible throws on the run are the reason that Wylie looked competent in KC.  It’s easy to look good with one of the greatest QB’s of all time to block for.

Edited August 12, 2023 by samy316

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, samy316 said:

It’s easy to look good with one of the greatest QB’s of all time to block for.

Howell is pretty great. Agreed. Which is why Whylie looking bad is so puzzling. He looked better with a lesser QB in KC.

Edited August 12, 2023 by KDawg

[mhd24]

What did you guys think of Dawaand last night.  I forgot to pay attention to him

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, mhd24 said:

What did you guys think of Dawaand last night.  I forgot to pay attention to him

Better than our guys. But not as good as week one.