Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[Stefanskins]

46 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Me personally?...I'd rather listen to what Terry has to say than listen to fans.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Stefanskins

[MIB__KEVIN]

I’m starting the chant now…..

Howell Howell Howell Howell Howell 

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Me personally?...I'd rather listen to what Terry has to say than listen to fans.

 

Sure, because at the moment he's agreeing with you and "backing up" your position on the debate.

 

But being a bit more objective, and knowing how Terry is as a person and a teammate, do you truly think he would say anything but positive things about any teammate, regardless of who it is?

 

Of course not. If asked about TH's claim of working on his arm strength, he's going to praise it, he's not going to say "Oh, yeah he's got a noodle still. Almost put me in the hospital a bunch of times last season. Tries hard though."

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Sure, because at the moment he's agreeing with you and "backing up" your position on the debate.

 

But being a bit more objective, and knowing how Terry is as a person and a teammate, do you truly think he would say anything but positive things about any teammate, regardless of who it is?

 

Of course not. If asked about TH's claim of working on his arm strength, he's going to praise it, he's not going to say "Oh, yeah he's got a noodle still. Almost put me in the hospital a bunch of times last season. Tries hard though."

 

I've never blown off what a player or coach says when they don't agree with what I believe...ever. Not while they're currently on the team. I've never treated their words as irrelevant, unless those words contradict their earlier statements.

 

The "What do you expect them to say?" response has always been lazy in my eyes, and I've said so numerous times...it's essentially just saying "I don't believe you". For me, who really gives a **** if you don't believe them...explain why are they're wrong.

 

And the thing is, what Terry said matches what numerous different players and coaches over the decades have said--that throwing velocity can indeed be improved. So why should I give the same validity and weight to a fan saying "No it can't"?

 

I've also ridiculed the infamous fan "eye test" rhetoric numerous times as well. Which ties into this discussion, unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I've never blown off what a player or coach says when they don't agree with what I believe...ever. Not while they're currently on the team. I've never treated their words as irrelevant, unless those words contradict their earlier statements.

 

The "What do you expect them to say?" response has always been lazy in my eyes, and I've said so numerous times...it's essentially just saying "I don't believe you". For me, who really gives a **** if you don't believe them...explain why are they're wrong.

 

And the thing is, what Terry said matches what numerous different players and coaches over the decades have said--that throwing velocity can indeed be improved. So why should I give the same validity and weight to a fan saying "No it can't"?

 

I've also ridiculed the infamous fan "eye test" rhetoric numerous times as well. Which ties into this discussion, unfortunately.

 

 

Because there's absolutely no evidence of a NFL QB improving their arm strength in a way that seems to make any difference, outside of some people anecdotally saying "yeah it's possible" or "yeah I strengthened my arm in the offseason." QBs with weak or mediocre arms have always continued to have weak or mediocre arms, regardless of whether they say they've worked on it in the offseason.

 

Could Heinicke be the exception? Sure, I guess. Is it likely? Probably not.

 

And "what do you expect a teammate to say?" is pretty legitimate. Tell me what you would expect any decent teammate to say if they were asked about something and they could either give the honest truth which might be a bit harsh, or they could spin it in a way that praises their teammate.

 

Teammates said some of the same kind of stuff about Colt McCoy when he claimed to strengthen his arm over the offseason. But he still had a noodle. Some people were saying the same stuff about Heinicke last season too, when he talked about working out and getting stronger over that offseason. He still had a noodle.

 

He has a noodle arm. It's just the way it is. Probably better to hope that he tries to make up for it some this season by using his legs a bit more instead of holding on to some hope that his arm magically became NFL caliber over the last year.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Because there's absolutely no evidence of a NFL QB improving their arm strength in a way that seems to make any difference, outside of some people anecdotally saying "yeah it's possible" or "yeah I strengthened my arm in the offseason." QBs with weak or mediocre arms have always continued to have weak or mediocre arms, regardless of whether they say they've worked on it in the offseason.

 

You don't have any idea if there's any evidence because you don't play...the WRs and TEs catching the ball do and they would notice. I already said this earlier, that fans arrogantly believe that if they can't notice it from their couches then it's irrelevant. The NFL uses radar guns top measure velocity, not the "eye test"...maybe velocity increases from 52 mph to 54 mph...will fans notice that difference? Will the WRs?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I wish I could say that I can’t believe we’re arguing the legitimacy of teammate-speak, but I’m not shocked at all really.

 

Next we are going to find out that when Joe Gibbs described the 1990 Detroit Lions he truly meant they were as good as he described in his weekly presser.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[mistertim]

25 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

You don't have any idea if there's any evidence because you don't play...the WRs and TEs catching the ball do and they would notice. I already said this earlier, that fans arrogantly believe that if they can't notice it from their couches then it's irrelevant. The NFL uses radar guns top measure velocity, not the "eye test"...maybe velocity increases from 52 mph to 54 mph...will fans notice that difference? Will the WRs?

 

 

 

 

So now the ONLY legit test of whether a QB has actually improved his arm strength is either 1) a radar gun or 2) a coach or player claiming it.

 

If people watch a QB throw and his balls float or take a long time to arrive, that's irrelevant. If they keep getting batted down or intercepted because the DB clearly had extra time to break on it, that's irrelevant. If people who know football and have plenty of experience watch up close in training camp and say a QB still has a noticeably weak arm, that's irrelevant.

 

Everything is irrelevant except what a coach claims about his player, what other players say about their teammate, or whether a radar gun shows a 2 mph increase. Jay Gruden claimed Colt McCoy strengthened his arm over an offseason. Therefore he did. The fact that his throws still floated and he couldn't drive throws into tight windows doesn't matter. He said it, therefore it is true.

 

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wish I could say that I can’t believe we’re arguing the legitimacy of teammate-speak, but I’m not shocked at all really.

 

Next we are going to find out that Joe Gibbs described the 1990 Detroit Lions he truly meant they were as good as he described in his weekly presser.  

 

Don't forget the arguing about whether a 1-2 mph increase on a radar gun technically counts as improving arm strength.

Edited October 23, 2022 by mistertim

[zCommander]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

So now the ONLY legit test of whether a QB has actually improved his arm strength is either 1) a radar gun or 2) a coach or player claiming it.

 

If people watch a QB throw and his balls float or take a long time to arrive, that's irrelevant. If they keep getting batted down or intercepted because the DB clearly had extra time to break on it, that's irrelevant. If people who know football and have plenty of experience watch up close in training camp and say a QB still has a noticeably weak arm, that's irrelevant.

 

So your argument is based on what you saw last year. But you have no clue if things have improved this year after he went to LA to learn about proper hip rotation and proper foot planting and transferring that said energy to the throwing motion? You don't believe a word of what TH said about how he watched all the films form last year and saw that he had a flaw in his throwing motion because he was just winging it? 

 

Clarify something for me. When you say arm strength are you talking about how far a said QB can throw or how fast? For ****s and giggles lets assume TH learned how to throw a faster ball but not how far he can throw (because his arm is not going to allow him to do that of course) the ball gets to say at the 30 yards mark a second faster which means a WR will catch it a second faster and avoid getting hit be a defender instead. To me arm strength doesn't really have to be throwing 60 yards bombs. What does it mean to you?

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, zCommander said:

So your argument is based on what you saw last year. But you have no clue if things have improved this year after he went to LA to learn about proper hip rotation and proper foot planting and transferring that said energy to the throwing motion? You don't believe a word of what TH said about how he watched all the films form last year and saw that he had a flaw in his throwing motion because he was just winging it? 

 

Clarify something for me. When you say arm strength are you talking about how far a said QB can throw or how fast? For ****s and giggles lets assume TH learned how to throw a faster ball but not how far he can throw (because his arm is not going to allow him to do that of course) the ball gets to say at the 30 yards mark a second faster which means a WR will catch it a second faster and avoid getting hit be a defender instead. To me arm strength doesn't really have to be throwing 60 yards bombs. What does it mean to you?

 

He's almost 30 years old.  He's not dramatically improving his arm strength.  

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

He's almost 30 years old.  He's not dramatically improving his arm strength.  

 

Did I say dramatically in my post? Incremental is the word you are looking for here instead. 

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

So your argument is based on what you saw last year. But you have no clue if things have improved this year after he went to LA to learn about proper hip rotation and proper foot planting and transferring that said energy to the throwing motion? You don't believe a word of what TH said about how he watched all the films form last year and saw that he had a flaw in his throwing motion because he was just winging it? 

 

Clarify something for me. When you say arm strength are you talking about how far a said QB can throw or how fast? For ****s and giggles lets assume TH learned how to throw a faster ball but not how far he can throw (because his arm is not going to allow him to do that of course) the ball gets to say at the 30 yards mark a second faster which means a WR will catch it a second faster and avoid getting hit be a defender instead. To me arm strength doesn't really have to be throwing 60 yards bombs. What does it mean to you?

 

My argument is based on the fact that plenty of mediocre or weak armed QBs have talked in the past about how they worked on strengthening their arm in the offseason, and it never actually shows up in any meaningful way on the field. I remember Colt McCoy talking about it, I remember reading about Andy Dalton claiming it, even remember reading about Chad Pennington claiming it. It didn't matter. They still had noodles.

 

I don't think TH is lying or anything. I'm sure he did watch a bunch of film and worked with a trainer. I just don't think it will matter much on the field. To me it's basically like a 4.7 40 guy watching himself running with a trainer, realizing how he needs to clean up his technique a bit, and working on it. But the reality is that doing that isn't going to change him from a 4.7 guy into a 4.3 guy. It might change him from a 4.7 guy to a 4.6 guy, but that slight change will make basically no difference during a game.

 

Arm strength and throwing torque is mostly genetic, like pure speed or vertical leap. You can tweak it a little, but that's about all.

 

And can we please stop getting into the ticky-tacky argument of "Well any slight increase is still technically an increase" debate? It's dumb. Everyone knows exactly what is meant by increasing arm strength. It's so that it shows up and makes an actual difference in the game, not whether he went from 52 to 53 mph on a radar gun.

[CobraCommander]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Did I say dramatically in my post? Incremental is the word you are looking for here instead. 

How old are you? Did you physically peak at 21, or 31? He is not going to be increasing anything incrementally, He will be decreasing incrementally.

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

How old are you? Did you physically peak at 21, or 31? He is not going to be increasing anything incrementally, He will be decreasing incrementally.

 

I am in my 50s. For me it was when I was in my late 40s when my body stared showing some age lol

What I do know is everyone ages differently. Regardless, we will see if what TH did had any effect on his throwing in about 3.5 hours. 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by zCommander

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am in my 50s. For me it was when I was in my late 40s when my body stared showing some age lol

What I do know is everyone ages differently. Regardless, we will see if what TH did had any effect on his throwing in about 3.5 hours. 

 

No we won’t.

 

If he looks good the Hivers will be out in force saying he’s the best man for the job and we should move forward with him because of how great he looked and the non-hivers will say he’s still not and had a good game but the other shoe will drop.

 

If he plays awful most of the Hivers will disappear but the remaining ones will say it’s one game and he’s just getting back into the flow now while the non-Hivers will demand to see Howell.

 

The objectivity, as a whole, is non-existent. We don’t find anything out today because the groupthink will always find reasons to argue.

[CobraCommander]

10 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am in my 50s. For me it was when I was in my late 40s when my body stared showing some age lol

What I do know is everyone ages differently. Regardless, we will see if what TH did had any effect on his throwing in about 3.5 hours. 

 

Only Tom Brady ages differently. The rest of us mere mortals degrade like radioactive half-life. If he couldn't chuck a ball 75 yards when he was 21 he ain't doin it now. He might have a little extra velocity these next couple of weeks but it will fall off a cliff by week 4 of starting.

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

No we won’t.

 

If he looks good the Hivers will be out in force saying he’s the best man for the job and we should move forward with him because of how great he looked and the non-hivers will say he’s still not and had a good game but the other shoe will drop.

 

If he plays awful most of the Hivers will disappear but the remaining ones will say it’s one game and he’s just getting back into the flow now while the non-Hivers will demand to see Howell.

 

The objectivity, as a whole, is non-existent. We don’t find anything out today because the groupthink will always find reasons to argue.

 

Probably. In the offseason I wanted us to punt this season to begin with to build for the future. TH of course is not the future and Howell is still an unknown. But in the meantime I will still root for TH to do well. I do like it when our football teams wins. I want us win today and shut up all the cheeseheads that will be there at Fedex field. 

[skinsmania123]

I have reached the point of desperation for decent QB play as a fan. But I know Heinike is not a starting QB. He cannot make the throws that would place him in that category. But he is a decent backup because he can give a team an intangible, an intangible he does possess, which is a spark, because players seem to rally around him. Do I hope he plays poorly?  Of course not. And I admit it would be really nice to watch Rodger's sulk during and after the game if he is losing and then loses. But I have no illusions regarding who Heinike is. And I understand everyone loving the underdog, because I do too, but it does not mean I want Rudy out there running the offense.

 

So naturally I am disappointed Howell is not ready.  But after bad Heinike or his noodle arm kicks in, which it will, probably around the Eagles game, I hope to see Howell.   

[KDawg]

Just now, skinsmania123 said:

I have reached the point of desperation for decent QB play as a fan. But I know Heinike is not a starting QB. He cannot make the throws that would place him in that category. But he is a decent backup because he can give a team an intangible, an intangible he does possess, which is a spark, because players seem to rally around him. Do I hope he plays poorly?  Of course not. And I admit it would be really nice to watch Rodger's sulk during and after the game if he is losing and then loses. But I have no illusions regarding who Heinike is. And I understand everyone loving the underdog, because I do too, but it does not mean I want Rudy out there running the offense.

 

So naturally I am disappointed Howell is not ready.  But after bad Heinike or his noodle arm kicks in, which it will, probably around the Eagles game, I hope to see Howell.   

To be fair to Howell we don’t know he’s not ready. We’ve heard he may not be, but that’s the narrative I’d send out publicly from The Command Center if we were going with Heinicke anyways, even if Howell was showing progress (and to be fair, if he wasn’t showing progress it’s be the same message).

[skinny21]

I’m hoping we get to see Howell at some point - and I can understand the argument that he should be out there right now.  I do not want Howell’s first game to be against the Eagles though (or Dallas for that matter).  Talk about getting thrown in to the fire, lol.  

[skinsmania123]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

To be fair to Howell we don’t know he’s not ready. We’ve heard he may not be, but that’s the narrative I’d send out publicly from The Command Center if we were going with Heinicke anyways, even if Howell was showing progress (and to be fair, if he wasn’t showing progress it’s be the same message).

Wow. I never even thought about that @KDawg. Makes sense.

[Jumbo]

If I wasn't retired this thread would be appearing in some of my professional activities, although it would pale in comparison to the infamous rg3ocd thread in volume and severity of examples. 😈🤪😁

 

Don't kid yourself. If it hadn't ever been closed that thread would still have a few guys arguing for rg3 as a starter even now.😚

[CobraCommander]

Showing off that big arm early. 

[FootballZombie]

Gibby is quietly haveing some decent KRs

[SlobberknockerSkinsFan]

After today Howell has no business starting. Was TH perfect? No. Did he make bad decisions? Yes. But those 2 touchdown balls were perfectly placed. For those that say he doesn’t have the arm to stretch the defense, I say look at those two passes alone. Given decent protection he can run this offense better than Wentz. Had the defense not made stupid plays on the last GB touchdown drive, the score wouldn’t have been as close as it was.