Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[CommanderDOOM]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

....

 

Idk man, I guess we'll see. I'm rooting for him. Whatever he's been doing, I hope it gives him even the lowest of gains. Paired with good mechanics......confidence 

Httc

[zCommander]

Taylor said last year he wasn't using his arm properly and went to Cali (not to be confused with our every own Califan007 but the actual state lol) for help and played golf to learn about hip rotation and stuff. If Taylor is able add more muster to his throws even if they don't go 50-60 yards but just 20-30 yards so he can get the ball to the WR quicker and before the DB gets to the WRs then the so called "medicine balls" can be reduced or eliminated all together. To me that would be improving the arm strength. We will see if his offseason arm camp/training thing actually paid off or not on Sunday. 

 

In the meantime here some videos on increasing arm strength done by a coach. 

 

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

TH has a noodle arm, no matter how many times he ties it in a bow. 
 

The love for TH would be an interesting psychological study if it weren’t so annoying. 😆

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

So why wouldn’t every weak armed QB just go to the best arm strength trainer in the world and cure their ills?

 

I gather some folks don’t realize how small the incremental gains are from said training.  

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So why wouldn’t every weak armed QB just go to the best arm strength trainer in the world and cure their ills?

 

I gather some folks don’t realize how small the incremental gains are from said training.  

Na, Heinicke is a super genius who has figured out what no other QB in the last 100 years has been able to figure out.

[TradeTheBeal!]

With Josh Allen on a bye, can y’all guess who I grabbed for my fantasy starting qb?  CAN YA CAN YA?!?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

With Josh Allen on a bye, can y’all guess who I grabbed for my fantasy starting qb?  CAN YA CAN YA?!?

Jimmy G, Matt Ryan???

[TradeTheBeal!]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Jimmy G, Matt Ryan???

Nah son.  No room on my squad for those crusty has-beens!

[Captain Wiggles]

45 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

With Josh Allen on a bye, can y’all guess who I grabbed for my fantasy starting qb?  CAN YA CAN YA?!?

 

🤭

 

[skinny21]

I’m not at all skeptical that Heinicke (or any qb) can improve their “arm strength” (velocity) to some extent.  I am skeptical that he will improve it on the field.  In live fire, with adrenaline pumping, it’s far more likely a qb falls back to their previous training, vs incorporating the changes they made in an offseason.  And of course for TH specifically, with a shaky oline, and the resulting likelihood of more defenders closer to him more often as he throws, that issue is likely to be magnified.

 

Roughly speaking, if a qb that throws the ball 49mph can alter their mechanics to get their velocity up 2%, that’s an increase of about 1mph.  40 yards down the field, that gets the ball there a couple hundredths(ish) of second faster.  Terrible number to use, but using a 4.4 40 yard dash, a db moves about 8 inches in those 2 hundredths of a second.  So, in a vacuum, a minor improvement in velocity - even if that 1mph is indiscernible to an onlooker - can make a significant difference in a game of inches.  But frankly, that change (the 2 hundredths of a second) is so easily wiped out by things like a defender’s leverage, arm length, a qbs decision-making/processing, etc.

In short, can a qb improve their velocity?  Yes.  Can it make a significant (in NFL terms) difference?  Yes.  Is it likely to lead to a discernible difference?  Probably not.

 

All of that said, I’m encouraged by Logan Paulsen saying Heinicke looked sharper in practice and in preseason.  And even if we don’t see any change in “arm strength”, there is at least some hope that he can at least reduce some of the errant throws (such as the many he sailed).

 

I’ve been thinking about the “if he could improve his velocity, why did he wait until this offseason?”… 

1) Earlier in his career, as mostly a 3rd stringer, the focus is on making a team - knowing the playbook, footwork, etc.

2) He gets the start in Carolina and tears his bicep, then comes to Washington and separates his shoulder vs TB.  Knows he might be the starter going into 2021, so he puts added emphasis on bulking up and joint mobility to reduce his chance of injury.

3) Plays the 2021 season and sees (and probably hears/reads plenty about) the velocity issue, so he puts an emphasis on trying to tweak the mechanics to improve his velocity in the offseason.

Point being, I’d argue it’s actually more logical to hold a positive/generous view on how he attacks his weaknesses/works to improve.  

 

Lastly, I’ll point out that (from my perspective anyway) most of the “love” shown to Heinicke is in response the more extreme views - that he’s terrible, has no talent, can’t threaten defenses past 10 yards, that there’s no way the offense can perform better with him rather than Carson, and so on.  No one (?) thinks he’s a franchise qb, and I don’t think anyone has suggested he’ll even be here next year.  For me, I just want to see a better product on the field.  Now I can certainly understand those thinking it’s pointless to put him in, that we need to be looking to the future (ie Howell), but that’s outside our control.  I’m not gonna hate on TH (as our qb, I know people don’t hate the dude) for Rivera starting him.

 

BTW, not that anyone cares (or should care, lol) but my default is to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved with the team, so I tend defend them if I think they’re treated unfairly… until they give me a reason not to.  In other words, my defenses of TH aren’t rooted in being some uber-fan of his, and I’m also not arguing against opinions that he’s not a good qb.  I argued for Haskins’ (RIP) potential until his immaturity became too much.  I’ve defended Wentz - I’ve put most of the blame on the oline/Turner (even if I think his lack of mobility and contract outweigh what good he brings).  As of right now, I’m of the opinion that Taylor is a good backup or low tier starter (not that I want him as our starter).  If the next few games show a continuation of his woeful end to his 2021 campaign though, I’m likely gonna change that opinion.

Edited October 21, 2022 by skinny21

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think the best any Heineke Hiver can hope for is that Heineke throws with more/better anticipation.  That’s a more realistic way for him to improve as a passer than any arm strength drill can offer.  Granted, it’s probably easier to throw with anticipation in practice than it is on Sundays, but that’s the only potential way he can improve as a passer.  His arm is what it is, so he must hedge with being more decisive and accurate.

[dc1]

33 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the best any Heineke Hiver can hope for is that Heineke throws with more/better anticipation.  That’s a more realistic way for him to improve as a passer than any arm strength drill can offer.  Granted, it’s probably easier to throw with anticipation in practice than it is on Sundays, but that’s the only potential way he can improve as a passer.  His arm is what it is, so he must hedge with being more decisive and accurate.

This is not the best that we can hope for.

 

What all of us are hoping for is more targets to Terry. 

 

Everything else is smooth mildly salted butter on toasted rye bread.

[CommanderDOOM]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So why wouldn’t every weak armed QB just go to the best arm strength trainer in the world and cure their ills?

 

I gather some folks don’t realize how small the incremental gains are from said training.  

I think every  most qbs do some sort of arm work for durability or strength or both. But for aTH, (along with continuity ) arm strength might be his biggest weakness,  I hope these techniques pay off.......and the OL doesnt suck.

[NickyJ]

All this talk of stronger arms reminds me when Colt McCoy was pumping up his arm strength.

 

I actually stumbled on a thread just now that was written about Taylor a year ago, it was an interesting read.

 

Quote

Ok, I like Taylor. I like his pocket presence, so far he is making good decisions. He's accurate and can scramble.

 

However, a few deeper passes from him fell short. I'm not the type of guy to follow combines, and follow physical stats such as that, but does he have the arm strength that we need. They could have been poorly thrown or underthrown. At least we have someone throwing downfield.

Quote

As far as Heinicke's response time, he's good. Moves well and buys as much as he can. Great to see someone take a snap and drop fats and throw fast. Wentz takes 3 steps back, waits for his contacts to focus, then starts to check out the field. By the time he's ready to toss the ball, our receivers are playing cards with defenders.

Quote

I don't think you really need to throw the ball 70 yards to be a good NFL qb. Heinicke is extremely accurate compared to what we had in the past. If you really want a strong arm qb....I think DA will be available. The next couple games will tell us a lot about our qb situation, but based on what I've already seen, Heinicke is the guy to build this offense around.

Quote

I wrote this elsewhere, but his arm looks really "live," with the ball popping off and spinning fast even when he flicks it. He'll never have a cannon, but neither do most of the top quarterbacks. Cutler has a bazooka and Rodgers' arm is top 5 or so, but honestly after that it's a big scrum with good-enough arms. It's really about anticipation, accuracy, and enough zip.

 

 

Oh shoot, I mixed up the names a bit. It was 12 years ago and they were talking about Colt McCoy. My bad. https://www.thebrownsboard.com/topic/17527-colt-mccoy-arm-strength/

 

But at least Colt showed you don't need a bazooka, right?

Edited October 21, 2022 by NickyJ

[NoCalMike]

I expect Heinicke to come in and look like a backup QB.  As in, capable, but not the main driver of the offense.  Look at a backup such as Cooper Rush, he can in and performed well for the most part, but he was also behind a much better O-line.  Once they played the Eagles who were better at attacking the pocket, he quickly reminded everyone why he is a back up.

 

I expect Heinicke to largely look the same he did last season, although I hope we get the version that isn't hesitant to use his legs to escape the pocket when necessary.  Whatever version of "I am going to stand in here and try to be a pocket passer" Heinicke flirted with for a portion of last season needs to go.  He isn't playing to audition for a start role in the future. His job is to keep the team a float or better while Wentz gets healthy.  If he succeeds then he is handing off the QB job to a team in decent shape to fight for a playoff spot starting in December.  If not and the team keeps losing, then it will likely be Howell time instead.

[Chump Bailey]

This is probably the worst defense TH could possibly face in his first start. Unfortunately, I can easily envision several TH ducks getting picked. 

[NeverSurrender]

4 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

 

I’ve been thinking about the “if he could improve his velocity, why did he wait until this offseason?”… 

1) Earlier in his career, as mostly a 3rd stringer, the focus is on making a team - knowing the playbook, footwork, etc.

2) He gets the start in Carolina and tears his bicep, then comes to Washington and separates his shoulder vs TB.  Knows he might be the starter going into 2021, so he puts added emphasis on bulking up and joint mobility to reduce his chance of injury.

3) Plays the 2021 season and sees (and probably hears/reads plenty about) the velocity issue, so he puts an emphasis on trying to tweak the mechanics to improve his velocity in the offseason.

Point being, I’d argue it’s actually more logical to hold a positive/generous view on how he attacks his weaknesses/works to improve.  

 

 

Sir, this type of logic is not allowed in respect to Taylor Heinickie.  You will be flamed

[skins island connection]

 Well, either TH ends up throwing better, with more velocity when needed and better accuracy, still there will be some who will blame him if they lose 45-41.

or,

TH ends up stinking up the joint and the team continues to stay on quest for a top draft pick.

 

Either way, whats gone so horribly bad that some fans will never be happy unless TH completely stinks up the joint? Is there really THAT much hatred for a player

who is trying to do his best? I seriously doubt that TH will go out there and play crappy 'just because', and it wasn't HIS choice to be thrusted into the starting role, that

was the decision made my the HC. 

I'm not trying to defend TH directly, but maybe indirectly; does the hatred of a player by a fan go as far as rooting against him playing good? Maybe going on a nice winning streak?

Give other fans something to be cheerful about? Or is it just the idea that some's misery needs company and wishing bad luck on a player just to justify being right about something?

This fan base is ****ed...

 

SIC

 

 

[Captain Wiggles]

27 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 Well, either TH ends up throwing better, with more velocity when needed and better accuracy, still there will be some who will blame him if they lose 45-41.

or,

TH ends up stinking up the joint and the team continues to stay on quest for a top draft pick.

 

Either way, whats gone so horribly bad that some fans will never be happy unless TH completely stinks up the joint? Is there really THAT much hatred for a player

who is trying to do his best? I seriously doubt that TH will go out there and play crappy 'just because', and it wasn't HIS choice to be thrusted into the starting role, that

was the decision made my the HC. 

I'm not trying to defend TH directly, but maybe indirectly; does the hatred of a player by a fan go as far as rooting against him playing good? Maybe going on a nice winning streak?

Give other fans something to be cheerful about? Or is it just the idea that some's misery needs company and wishing bad luck on a player just to justify being right about something?

This fan base is ****ed...

 

SIC

 

 

 

You saying there might a be crab mentality afoot? 🦀

 

[skinny21]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the best any Heineke Hiver can hope for is that Heineke throws with more/better anticipation.  That’s a more realistic way for him to improve as a passer than any arm strength drill can offer.  Granted, it’s probably easier to throw with anticipation in practice than it is on Sundays, but that’s the only potential way he can improve as a passer.  His arm is what it is, so he must hedge with being more decisive and accurate.

As I said earlier, I think it’s tough to transfer mechanical tweaks because of the number of reps needed to ingrain them (and override one’s previous mechanics).  Even harder for us to actually discern any changes, so I don’t know that we’ll see much of a difference, but it is possible.  With that said, I think that’s the best people can hope for - that the changes translate, leading to fewer errant throws, and a bit more velocity (and distance, when needed) on throws… in conjunction with anticipation and decision-making.  In other words, I disagree with you that anticipation is the only way he can improve as a passer, but you could definitely be right that it’s the most likely avenue to improvement.

 

 

Took separate snippets from the article below, so apologies that they don’t run together well.  Interesting tidbits in each paragraph though (IMO).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/08/05/taylor-heinicke-spent-offseason-building-his-game-his-legos/

 

So this offseason, he went to Adam Dedeaux, a quarterbacks coach in Los Angeles who used to be a baseball player and now works with many of the top signal callers around the league, including Wentz.

 

He also had issues with his mechanics. Looking back at film, he saw his hips weren’t pulling through. A lot of his weight was on his front foot when he threw, affecting his drive on the ball, and often his shoulder was down, prohibiting him from getting air under his throws.

 

“Looking back at last year through this offseason . . . sometimes I overcomplicated things,” Heinicke said. “Sometimes I was looking too far into the defense when it’s black and white: If they do this, throw to here. I was just thinking too much. So one of the biggest things throughout this [organized team activities] and minicamp is to just stick to the playbook. What we talk about in meetings, let’s just go out there and execute it; don’t think too much about it. I feel like I’ve made some strides.”

[tomwvr]

I really dont get it.

taylor may or may not  improve, but why are there so many that hate the guy?

 

i want to see howell in 2-3 weeks when the season is done. But saying a man that lead the team to seven wins is a joke of a qb but a guy that was trending to win 5 games with the team this season is so much better is just plain nuts

[tshile]

Are you all seriously doing this again?

 

can’t you just watch him play, see if he got any better first?

 

and if he didn’t get better - who cares? He’s playing because wentz got hurt and if he sucks they’ll trot wentz back out there to also suck 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

For the record, and I think that I speak for most of us…

 

I don’t hate Taylor Heineke at all, it’s the Hive that I find annoying.

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

44 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

For the record, and I think that I speak for most of us…

 

I don’t hate Taylor Heineke at all, it’s the Hive that I find annoying.

 

 

Yeah it's basically gaslighting.

 

Nobody here "hates" Heinicke. He seems like a good dude who's easy to root for. But the Hive is a different story.

 

It reminds me of the Cult of Colt. Nobody "hated" Colt Brennan (RIP), I certainly didn't. But the Cult itself was obnoxious to the point where I wanted CB off the team, not because I disliked him or wished him ill, but because the Cult was just so goddamn insufferable that I hoped they'd follow him wherever he went.

[stoshuaj]

Exhibit A of an entire alphabet soup of Hive nonsense:

 

”But saying a man that lead the team to seven wins is a joke of a qb ”

 

I would respectfully request that you find and quote anyone on this site making that statement. 
 

That’s the kind of crap that people hate.  Hell, I would submit that nobody wants to see TH fail but certainly there is room for speculation and criticism but guess what, that’s not synonymous with hate.  Buy a damn dictionary ffs

Edited October 22, 2022 by stoshuaj