Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[DJHJR86]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You do to keep a second rounder.

 

It helps to take all context into conversations.

 

You really think they were going to bench Commander Carson at some point to save the second rounder?  

[hail2skins]

Has Dan "we finally have a QB" Snyder weighed in on this yet?

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

Has Dan "we finally have a QB" Snyder weighed in on this yet?

 

He's probably busy trying to dissuade the NFL owners from forcing him to sell the team.

[CommanderDOOM]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Which bombs? I remember him hitting a few, but IIRC most of them required at least moderate adjustments by the WR (usually Terry).

 

The deep pass wasn't so deep after all......I still remember another that was dropped. But that was off the street. He's had 2 off-seasons and to improve his arm strength and endurance.

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, CommanderDOOM said:

 

The deep pass wasn't so deep after all......I still remember another that was dropped. But that was off the street. He's had 2 off-seasons and to improve his arm strength and endurance.

 

Arm strength doesn't really improve much. It's mostly genetics and physiology. You can tweak/improve mechanics to get the most out of what you have, but at the end of the day the upper limits of arm strength is pretty much set. That's why you almost never see any NFL QB drastically improve his arm strength from college to the NFL or from one NFL season to the next.

 

We heard the same thing about Colt McCoy when he was here: that he had been working a bunch on improving his arm strength in the offseason. But it didn't actually make any discernible difference on the field.

 

Heinicke has a weak arm. It is what it is. He can throw deep but they tend to float and/or be underthrown. He also can't really make tight window throws on things like out routes (which is probably why Turner seemed to basically remove them from the playbook after a while).

Edited October 20, 2022 by mistertim

[petey hodge]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

He's probably busy trying to dissuade the NFL owners from forcing him to sell the team.

More like “blackmail”

 

 

[CommanderDOOM]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Arm strength doesn't really improve much...... 

 

Then why have qb's and pitchers done/do exercises to increase strength???...

Anyways, I guess ther is no definitive answer but for a guy like Taylor, coming from ODU, and maybe only now getting in prime nfl shape ther is hope. For someone with a weak arm, the smallest of gains would help....and maybe stop throwing off the back foot.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, CommanderDOOM said:

 

Then why have qb's and pitchers done/do exercises to increase strength???...

Anyways, I guess ther is no definitive answer but for a guy like Taylor, coming from ODU, and maybe only now getting in prime nfl shape ther is hope. For someone with a weak arm, the smallest of gains would help....and maybe stop throwing off the back foot.

Those exercises are to maintain arm durability. They don't actually increase your arm strength.

[CommanderDOOM]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Those exercises are to maintain arm durability. They don't actually increase your arm strength.

Mmm

 

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, CommanderDOOM said:

 

Then why have qb's and pitchers done/do exercises to increase strength???...

Anyways, I guess ther is no definitive answer but for a guy like Taylor, coming from ODU, and maybe only now getting in prime nfl shape ther is hope. For someone with a weak arm, the smallest of gains would help....and maybe stop throwing off the back foot.

 

So Heinicke is finally getting into NFL shape after 7 years?

 

3 minutes ago, CommanderDOOM said:

Mmm

 

 

As I said, Colt McCoy did the exact same thing and talked about how much he worked on his arm strength during one or two offseasons with Washington. It didn't do diddly-squat. If arm strength truly could be improved in any major way, there wouldn't be guys with weak, or even mediocre, arms in the NFL.

Edited October 20, 2022 by mistertim

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

As I said, Colt McCoy did the exact same thing and talked about how much he worked on his arm strength during one or two offseasons with Washington. It didn't do diddly-squat. If arm strength truly could be improved in any major way, there wouldn't be guys with weak, or even mediocre, arms in the NFL.

Yep. Speed is kinda the same thing. Some guys are fast. Some guys are slow. Slow guys will never be fast. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Logan Paulsen mentioned that throwing mechanics can increase the power and velocity of a QB's throws...(it's in the video on the other thread, so I'm going off memory here lol)

[CommanderDOOM]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So Heinicke is finally....

 

Maybe now he's working harder than ever before. Idk, obviously He and coaches disagree with u.

 

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep. Speed is kinda the same thing. Some guys are fast. Some guys are slow. Slow guys will never be fast. 

 

Not saying Cooper Kupp was slow but he looks faster now....

[mistertim]

20 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Logan Paulsen mentioned that throwing mechanics can increase the power and velocity of a QB's throws...(it's in the video on the other thread, so I'm going off memory here lol)

 

I think that falls more into the category of maximizing your genetic capabilities, not really improving your arm strength. Sort of like a vertical leap. You can add a couple of inches by practicing correct technique, etc. but a guy with a 30 inch vertical will never have a 40 inch vertical.

 

15 minutes ago, CommanderDOOM said:

 

Maybe now he's working harder than ever before. Idk, obviously He and coaches disagree with u.

 

 

Coaches disagree with me on what? I have no idea what you're even saying.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Matt Cassel on arm strength:

 

"We did drills with weighted balls and other exercises to speed up our throwing motion and improve fast-twitch muscles. A lot of quarterbacks that I’ve been around more recently, whether it’s Dak Prescott or Matthew Stafford, all have very similar approaches in terms of doing workouts to build arm strength, consistency and durability in the shoulder.

 

Every quarterback, especially early in their career, is looking for anything that can make them better and give them an edge. He'll meet with his position coach after the season, and if he says, "I’d really like to try to work on getting more velocity on throws outside the numbers" or something like that, then they’ll put together a plan in order to do just that."

 

Maybe the issue is that, as fans. we're defining "increasing arm strength" as Todd Collins suddenly looking like Dan Marino...or even just as "if arm strength is actually increased, it won't be an issue anymore." Probably not the best way to approach it.

 

 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think that falls more into the category of maximizing your genetic capabilities, not really improving your arm strength. Sort of like a vertical leap. You can add a couple of inches by practicing correct technique, etc.

 

Isn't adding a couple of inches to your vertical leap increasing your vertical leap? lol...

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Matt Cassel on arm strength:

 

"We did drills with weighted balls and other exercises to speed up our throwing motion and improve fast-twitch muscles. A lot of quarterbacks that I’ve been around more recently, whether it’s Dak Prescott or Matthew Stafford, all have very similar approaches in terms of doing workouts to build arm strength, consistency and durability in the shoulder.

 

Every quarterback, especially early in their career, is looking for anything that can make them better and give them an edge. He'll meet with his position coach after the season, and if he says, "I’d really like to try to work on getting more velocity on throws outside the numbers" or something like that, then they’ll put together a plan in order to do just that."

 

Maybe the issue is that, as fans. we're defining "increasing arm strength" as Todd Collins suddenly looking like Dan Marino...or even just as "if arm strength is actually increased, it won't be an issue anymore." Probably not the best way to approach it.

 

 

 

Isn't adding a couple of inches to your vertical leap increasing your vertical leap? lol...

 

 

If that's true, why didn't Matt Cassel have a gun instead of a so-so noodle? Probably because he was only making very small increases that made little difference on the field.

 

And why am I not surprised that you devolved into semantics?

 

The point is making any realistic or noticeable improvement in arm strength. You might be able to squeeze a MPH or two if you hone your technique, but a guy with a weak arm is always going to have a relatively weak or at best mediocre arm. He's never going to drastically improve his arm strength.

 

Again, if this weren't the case then every QB in the NFL would be Brett Favre or Josh Allen.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

If that's true, why didn't Matt Cassel have a gun instead of a so-so noodle? Probably because he was only making very small increases that made little difference on the field.

 

And why am I not surprised that you devolved into semantics?

 

 

- I'll repeat myself:

Maybe the issue is that, as fans. we're defining "increasing arm strength" as Todd Collins suddenly looking like Dan Marino...or even just as "if arm strength is actually increased, it won't be an issue anymore." Probably not the best way to approach it.

 

- Semantics:

This tends to be used when someone misstates their opinion and don't like being called on it.

 

-Noticeable improvement in arm strength:

I love how fans feel that if they don't easily notice it from their couches then it's an irrelevant "improvement".

[CommanderDOOM]

21 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Coaches disagree with me on what? I have no idea what you're even saying.

 

Taylor(qbs) and coaches disagree about arm strength, and whether u can improve it.

Edited October 20, 2022 by CommanderDOOM

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

- I'll repeat myself:

Maybe the issue is that, as fans. we're defining "increasing arm strength" as Todd Collins suddenly looking like Dan Marino...or even just as "if arm strength is actually increased, it won't be an issue anymore." Probably not the best way to approach it.

 

- Semantics:

This tends to be used when someone misstates their opinion and don't like being called on it.

 

-Noticeable improvement in arm strength:

I love how fans feel that if they don't easily notice it from their couches then it's an irrelevant "improvement".

 

No, I've said many times in my posts that I'm talking about a noticeable improvement in arm strength. That's why it's semantics; because I've said that throughout and it was pretty clear, but you wanted to get some sort of "lol gotcha" in there instead of actually addressing the overall point.

 

And do you think it's only fans that have noticed that QBs tend to keep the same general arm strength? Are coaches completely blind to it? Is there actually some hack that QBs do have that increases their arm strength to where coaches notice it but fans can't?

 

I remember @Skinsinparadisecommenting on how he went to training camp one year after Colt McCoy talked a bunch about strengthening his arm over the offseason. He said from up close he noticed no difference. McCoy still had a noticeably weaker arm than the other QBs and there wasn't really any difference between his arm during that TC and the TC the year before.  (SIP, I think it was you, but correct me if I'm wrong).

 

So the main point still stands: a guy with a weak or mediocre arm is pretty much always going to have a mediocre arm, no matter how much their pay their personal offseason QB guru.

 

6 minutes ago, CommanderDOOM said:

 

Taylor(qbs) and coaches disagree about arm strength, and whether u can improve it.

 

 

Do you have some quote from Turner or Rivera where they claim that Heinicke's arm has noticeably improved? From what I read from people who were at training camp this year, his arm was the same as it was before.

Edited October 20, 2022 by mistertim

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

No, I've said many times in my posts that I'm talking about a noticeable improvement in arm strength. That's why it's semantics; because I've said that throughout and it was pretty clear, but you wanted to get some sort of "lol gotcha" in there instead of actually addressing the overall point.

 

And do you think it's only fans that have noticed that QBs tend to keep the same general arm strength? Are coaches completely blind to it? Is there actually some hack that QBs do have that increases their arm strength to where coaches notice it but fans can't?

 

I remember @Skinsinparadisecommenting on how he went to training camp one year after Colt McCoy talked a bunch about strengthening his arm over the offseason. He said from up close he noticed no difference. McCoy still had a noticeably weaker arm than the other QBs and there wasn't really any difference between his arm during that TC and the TC the year before.  (SIP, I think it was you, but correct me if I'm wrong).

 

So the main point still stands: a guy with a weak or mediocre arm is pretty much always going to have a mediocre arm, no matter how much their pay their personal offseason QB guru.

 

 

-If I have to go read your previous 16 posts to understand what you're actually saying in your last post, then no, it's not "semantics".

 

- Coaches don't notice arm strength improvement:

Which of course is why QB coaches across the league have been designing exercise regimens to increase arm strength...because they never notice that it ever does any good.

 

I'll say once more lol: I love how fans feel that if they don't easily notice it from their couches then it's an irrelevant "improvement".

 

Coaches, position coaches, strength and conditioning coaches, and QBs themselves swear they can improve their throwing velocity and have been swearing by this for decades...versus mistertim claiming no, they haven't and can't.

 

 

 

Ehhhh, I'm gonna go with the coaches and players on this one.

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep. Speed is kinda the same thing. Some guys are fast. Some guys are slow. Slow guys will never be fast. 

That is a great analogy.

 

An athlete can work out with a sprinting coach, but your not going to improve your speed profile in a significant way. You can help develop your running form and technique to get the most out of the athleticism you have, but your not gonna suddenly transform dudes who are not burners into top end speed guys. Your athletic limits are in a lot of ways established by your own personal structure.

 

The same goes for arm strength. Your not gonna see a guy get explosive gains in their own arm strength. The majority of improvement comes from mechanics and consistency.

 

If a dude w/ a weak arm wants to improve the velocity of his throws, the best way is to be more consistent with your throwing motion. A dude w/ a noodle arm who throws off his back foot or just with arm strength alone will get smoked by the same guy who throws using his entire body. He will never have a strong arm, but he can maximize the arm he has.

 

I don't expect to see that out of TH tho. He has some of the worse throwing mechanics I have ever seen and its partly why his lack of arm strength is so pronounced. Every TH pass is a snowflake, they are all unique.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2022/01/26/throwing-coach-tom-house-mac-jones-arm-strength-tom-house/

 

As good as Patriots quarterback Mac Jones’s rookie season was, the way teams preyed on his lack of elite arm strength down the stretch raised alarms for fans and evaluators alike.

 

But while Jones might not ever have that level of raw talent, legendary throwing coach Tom House believes there’s more untapped potential in the Patriots passer’s right arm than many give him credit for.

 

“From what I know about dealing with quarterbacks and pitchers, when they show up, very few of them have maxed out their genetic capacity to throw..."

 

Jones doesn’t have the base athletic ability of Luck, a former No. 1 overall pick regarded as one of the best college quarterback prospects ever, or other elite NFL quarterbacks, which House acknowledged.

 

But that doesn’t mean the soon-to-be-second-year Patriot can’t noticeably beef up his arm by the time the 2022 season starts.

 

“I don’t know the farthest that Mac has ever thrown a football, but I guarantee you we can train him to do it,” House added. “We can repattern and retrain his delivery to handle consistent 60-yard throws if necessary…I could look Coach Belichick in the face and say, ‘If you need him to throw five 60-yarders this game, he can do it for you.'”

 

*******

 

And before anyone is dumb enough to say it...no, I'm not comparing Heinicke to Mac Jones lol. I'm simply talking about whether or not professionals in the sport believe arm strength can be improved to any noticeable degree.

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

-If I have to go read your previous 16 posts to understand what you're actually saying in your last post, then no, it's not "semantics".

 

- Coaches don't notice arm strength improvement:

Which of course is why QB coaches across the league have been designing exercise regimens to increase arm strength...because they never notice that it ever does any good.

 

I'll say once more lol: I love how fans feel that if they don't easily notice it from their couches then it's an irrelevant "improvement".

 

Coaches, position coaches, strength and conditioning coaches, and QBs themselves swear they can improve their throwing velocity and have been swearing by this for decades...versus mistertim claiming no, they haven't and can't.

 

Ehhhh, I'm gonna go with the coaches and players on this one.

 

And yet I've never seen any tangible evidence of a NFL QB significantly improving his arm strength. And I can't think of any time I saw a coach say that a QB had noticeably improved their arm strength and where it's something that other people can actually see.

 

I've seen plenty of QBs talk about how they've worked on it, and trainers (who get paid a boatload of money) talk about how they've somehow cracked the code. But is there any evidence for it beyond their word?

 

If the improvement is so subtle that the only people who can notice it are NFL position coaches, then I'm guessing it's not a big enough improvement to make a big difference on game day. If a bunch of people go to training camp two years in a row and say that QB x's throws look the same as last season, is that invalidated because the QB says he worked on strengthening his arm?

 

Again, if this is something that basically has some drill or cheat code, then why are there still weak armed QBs in the NFL? Did they not pay their arm strength union membership dues or something?

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

I remember @Skinsinparadisecommenting on how he went to training camp one year after Colt McCoy talked a bunch about strengthening his arm over the offseason. He said from up close he noticed no difference. McCoy still had a noticeably weaker arm than the other QBs and there wasn't really any difference between his arm during that TC and the TC the year before.  (SIP, I think it was you, but correct me if I'm wrong).

 

 

It was me.  It's easy to see it in training camp in part because you are close to it all, and also you can see the QBs throw back to back with each other.  Kirk has good arm strength but nothing extraordinary but he looked like he had a Josh Allen level rifle of an arm when you watched him juxtaposed with Colt.  Sudfeld too had a much stronger arm.

[NoCalMike]

When it comes to arm strength, it isn't merely who can go out to an open field and heave a football 60 yards.  It also has to do with what you can do when you are being pressured, rolling out, forced to scramble.  Heinicke had a very tough time on plays where he was flushed out of the pocket and had to throw without his feet/legs/hips set.  True arm strength is what the QB's have that when flushed they can make throws just using their arms when needed.  It is a big part of the game, to be able to make certain throws under duress.  Think of how many short comeback throws Heinicke had broken up last season because the ball is throw with such lack of velocity the DB's always had time to recover.    

 

The Howell or Heinicke debate should effectively be over since the decision has been made.  My assumption is that Heinicke will be starting at least the next 4 games to attempt to keep the team afloat (or better) with the ultimate plan for Wentz to start as soon as he is healthy.  What alters this plan is if the team loses the next 4 in a row and by the time Wentz is healthy the team is eliminated from playoff contention.

As silly as it sounds right now, the team is only 1.5 games out of the 7th seed.  That is how poor the NFC is so far this season.  Do I personally think they will turn things around enough to snatch a playoff spot? Nah....but it is only Week 7 and you can't go to your locker room as a coach and say, sorry we are packing it in, maybe this rookie will impress, but if not, hang tight for 2023.  Just can't do it.