Broken #1QB. Now who should start?

[SkinsFTW]

Maybe not Matt Ryan but what would stop these fools from doubling down on the idiocy and trading a first to Denver for Russell Wilson after the year is done.

[stoshuaj]

5 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

see if you strike gold in later rounds like with Howell

Gold?, really?  Nothing against him in particular but he’s still a 5th round draft pick that hasn’t seen NFL snap one.  
 

He’s barely molten lava at this point 

Edited October 26, 2022 by stoshuaj

[tone_dubbz]

5 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

Case in point: in 2016, the Chiefs went 12-4 and won the division under Alex Smith. A few months later, they drafted Patrick Mahomes with the 10th pick. 

 

 

But didn't they give up a 3rd and next years 1st to jump from 27th to 10th?

 

If we do end up picking in the teens, not sure if this team is willing to trade future assets unless they are absolutely sure their franchise QB is there (especially with the RG3 debacle still fresh in everyone's mind 😆). 

[KDawg]

I think there is a giant disconnect on the extremes and people are failing to see the middle ground in this conversation because people don't want to understand it (from both sides)

 

1. There is merit to winning games and being a good team.

 

2. There is also a detrimental effect to being mediocre every season.

 

3. Rooting for losses now is stupid.

 

4. Understanding that winning games now because this team very likely isn't a real contender is kicking the can down the road is different than rooting for losses.

 

5. Good players can be drafted anywhere in the draft.

 

6. Having said that, your chances greatly increase when you have higher picks in each round of the draft.

 

7. Dan Snyder handicaps this team and prized FAs don't come here.

 

8. In order to fill this team with good talent, we need to draft well and hope the current locker room culture is something the players in house want to stay for. So far it seems to be sticking with players like McLaurin hanging around and Jon Allen. But the outside perspective isn't improving. But we are proving we CAN keep our own homegrown talent.

 

9. Top flight QB prospects are generally top flight prospects because they are better. Not always the case, but QB scouting has improved over the years and we are getting more success with higher picks than lower, though there are always outliers. I think/hope Howell is an outlier. But we won't know until we see him.

 

10. No draft pick, anywhere is ever a sure thing, but chances increase with higher picks.

 

11. This team is in trouble regardless due to it's ownsership situation.

 

12. We have drafted two quarterbacks in the top 5 in recent memory. One was Heath Shuler. That was 30 years ago. The other was RG3, who was a guy that Shanahan didn't want and Snyder did and that hurt Griffin. Taking Cousins was a good move by Shanahan but a bad move for a #2 draft pick. Griffin's ego hurt him a bit, too. But the head butting on that selection and the draft picks that allowed us to do so set this team back. Griffin played well in year one and likely would have had a fairly solid career in DC if HE, the coach and the owner were on the same page from day 1. They weren't and it flopped.

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

We haven’t drafted a quality first round qb since Sammy Baugh. All others were acquired via trade or later rounds. It’s far less than 50/50. We drafted Sammy in 1937. If odds are we hit once a century, we should tank in 15 years for the 2037 draft. 
 

If your first round pick is a bust and you are picking high it’s like you won the Super Bowl and are picking at the end of the round/beginning of next round. So might as well try to win. Tanking only works when the people making the pick aren’t morons and even then it’s still not anywhere close to a sure thing. You play as hard as you can to win until you are mathematically eliminated then you tank. If you want to tank before then it’s a loser mentality that will permeate the culture of the team worse than what we have now.

 

That is a loser mentality actually. We haven't since Sammy we shouldn't try at all because it doesn't work for us. If you don't try then you won't get one. That is why I said 50/50 chance they will work out. If it works great if not oh well. Next year then like AZ did. You keep on trying until you get one. But doing the retreads hasn't worked for us for over 30 years now and it is because Dan wants to go to SB every year and believes he can in his twisted little mind. That is not how you build for the future and be able to go to playoffs and beyond every year.

 

Only other way it works is you build the team and then drop in a QB that is talented like the Rams did and won the SB. I don't see the Rams winning another one anytime soon. So if your goal is just one SB then this model  works. If you want to keep on going to the playoffs then getting a franchise QB is the better option. A rookie QB cost less and you can build around the QB for a year a two and be a contender. But, in our case, we paid a boatload of money to a QB and then didn't have any money left over for OL and DL and now the team sucks because of it. 

 

Going back to tanking on purpose. You just have to play hard enough not to win meaningless games. 

[Est.1974]

The reality is that league is full of mediocrity. One game swing, at 2-5 we’d be picking top 5, at 4-3 mid 20’s. And we could easily hit December 6-6, and just as easily lose out from there on in. I’m not sure tanking is that easy as there is so much crap in the league.

 

Our QB problem is going nowhere. We’ll be backed into the same corner in the 2023 offseason. I think we’ll blow a load of picks to move up in the draft. The veteran QB market looks as flawed a route as ever right now. 

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

The reality is that league is full of mediocrity. One game swing, at 2-5 we’d be picking top 5, at 4-3 mid 20’s. And we could easily hit December 6-6, and just as easily lose out from there on in. I’m not sure tanking is that easy as there is so much crap in the league.

 

Our QB problem is going nowhere. We’ll be backed into the same corner in the 2023 offseason. I think we’ll blow a load of picks to move up in the draft. The veteran QB market looks as flawed a route as ever right now. 

Only way out is Sam Howell. So in that way I’m glad we aren’t throwing him to the wolves. But I hope we see him for an extended stretch before we throw him away and draft a late round first round QB. 

[Warhead36]

29 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

The reality is that league is full of mediocrity. One game swing, at 2-5 we’d be picking top 5, at 4-3 mid 20’s. And we could easily hit December 6-6, and just as easily lose out from there on in. I’m not sure tanking is that easy as there is so much crap in the league.

 

Our QB problem is going nowhere. We’ll be backed into the same corner in the 2023 offseason. I think we’ll blow a load of picks to move up in the draft. The veteran QB market looks as flawed a route as ever right now. 

This has been a weird year. The Chiefs, Bills, and Eagles look elite. Vikings look pretty good too(but have basically only beaten garbage tier teams more or less and haven't really dominated anyone). But beyond that? Its really a league full of mediocrity.

[HigSkin]

Okay, this is hilarious...

 

 

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

What are the chances the Manders dial up RG III?

 

 

 

Just kiddin'...I think we have a better chance of signing Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson and overpaying them next year.

[CapsSkins]

4 hours ago, tone_dubbz said:

But didn't they give up a 3rd and next years 1st to jump from 27th to 10th?

 

If we do end up picking in the teens, not sure if this team is willing to trade future assets unless they are absolutely sure their franchise QB is there (especially with the RG3 debacle still fresh in everyone's mind 😆). 

 

Yeah but that's my point. If you're a GOOD team (like, you just went 12-4), then you won't mind giving up draft picks to move from 27 to 10 (or wherever) because the roster is already mostly built up.

 

When you're a bad team, trading draft picks is extra painful because you likely need more talent all across the board.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Only way out is Sam Howell. So in that way I’m glad we aren’t throwing him to the wolves. But I hope we see him for an extended stretch before we throw him away and draft a late round first round QB. 

I’d like to see him get 8 games or so. Next 3 games likely dictate where we go at QB.

[NeverSurrender]

13 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

For everyone who says this, or things along these lines, here's a very simple question: Do you think it's generally better to have a higher draft pick or a lower one?

That would depend on whos making the pick.  Also i really think your missing his point or just ignoring it.  Theres no guarantee on anything in the draft.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

That would depend on whos making the pick.  Also i really think your missing his point or just ignoring it.  Theres no guarantee on anything in the draft.  

Of course there isn’t, but the odds are in your favor picking early in the draft vs. later.

 

Just two weeks ago, this place was apocalyptic about the state of the roster, coaching staff, etc. Folks were packing Ron’s bags for him.  The majority of this forum being in agreement that the roster just isn’t up to snuff to compete.

 

Since that time they’ve accounted for two wins, one by sucking less than the Bears, the other over what is likely the worst team Aaron Rodgers has ever been tasked with leading.  
 

Bottom line is this is still the same team everyone was unhappy with not long ago.  So spare me the “we just gotta win” narrative that only spawned after a few meh wins.  I don’t think any of us were under the impression this team was as bad as 1-4 suggested, but they definitely aren’t good enough to compete- particularly in this division where they reside in their usual last place spot.

[NeverSurrender]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Of course there isn’t, but the odds are in your favor picking early in the draft vs. later.

 

Just two weeks ago, this place was apocalyptic about the state of the roster, coaching staff, etc. Folks were packing Ron’s bags for him.  The majority of this forum being in agreement that the roster just isn’t up to snuff to compete.

 

Since that time they’ve accounted for two wins, one by sucking less than the Bears, the other over what is likely the worst team Aaron Rodgers has ever been tasked with leading.  
 

Bottom line is this is still the same team everyone was unhappy with not long ago.  So spare me the “we just gotta win” narrative that only spawned after a few meh wins.  I don’t think any of us were under the impression this team was as bad as 1-4 suggested, but they definitely aren’t good enough to compete- particularly in this division where they reside in their usual last place spot.

Well Ill spare you the "winning is everything" narrative if you spare me the "top 5 draft pick or bust" narrative.  We have been down the road of the latter lets see what an 8 game winning streak looks like.  If something like that were to happen it would change EVERYTHING.  Bottom line is, if you have ever played organized sports winning cures everything.  The fact is that i cannot "spare you" the truth.  You are doing a good job of ignoring it though.

[Cooleyfan1993]

Well, winning would change ALMOST everything. It wouldn’t change the owner though  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Cooleyfan1993

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, NeverSurrender said:

Well Ill spare you the "winning is everything" narrative if you spare me the "top 5 draft pick or bust" narrative.  We have been down the road of the latter lets see what an 8 game winning streak looks like.  If something like that were to happen it would change EVERYTHING.  Bottom line is, if you have ever played organized sports winning cures everything.  The fact is that i cannot "spare you" the truth.  You are doing a good job of ignoring it though.

Wake up, man. You’re dreaming.

 

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, NeverSurrender said:

That would depend on whos making the pick.  Also i really think your missing his point or just ignoring it.  Theres no guarantee on anything in the draft.  

Nope, didn't miss his point at all. 

 

The whole "we aren't good at drafting, so we should try tomato it harder by having later draft picks" line is always worth a laugh.

 

I've said it many times here, but if you're talking about "guarantees" to make a case, when there are no guarantees in anything, then you don't have an argument. 

[NeverSurrender]

2 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Well, winning would change ALMOST everything. It wouldn’t change the owner though  

I knew Snyder would be brought into this and its true but Im trying to stay off that topic for a while.

[NeverSurrender]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Wake up, man. You’re dreaming.

 

 

Im not dreaming about anything.  I made a point. Again, you have chosen to ignore it.  

[dc1]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think there is a giant disconnect on the extremes and people are failing to see the middle ground in this conversation because people don't want to understand it (from both sides)

 

1. There is merit to winning games and being a good team.

 

2. There is also a detrimental effect to being mediocre every season.

 

3. Rooting for losses now is stupid.

 

4. Understanding that winning games now because this team very likely isn't a real contender is kicking the can down the road is different than rooting for losses.

 

5. Good players can be drafted anywhere in the draft.

 

6. Having said that, your chances greatly increase when you have higher picks in each round of the draft.

 

7. Dan Snyder handicaps this team and prized FAs don't come here.

 

8. In order to fill this team with good talent, we need to draft well and hope the current locker room culture is something the players in house want to stay for. So far it seems to be sticking with players like McLaurin hanging around and Jon Allen. But the outside perspective isn't improving. But we are proving we CAN keep our own homegrown talent.

 

9. Top flight QB prospects are generally top flight prospects because they are better. Not always the case, but QB scouting has improved over the years and we are getting more success with higher picks than lower, though there are always outliers. I think/hope Howell is an outlier. But we won't know until we see him.

 

10. No draft pick, anywhere is ever a sure thing, but chances increase with higher picks.

 

11. This team is in trouble regardless due to it's ownsership situation.

 

12. We have drafted two quarterbacks in the top 5 in recent memory. One was Heath Shuler. That was 30 years ago. The other was RG3, who was a guy that Shanahan didn't want and Snyder did and that hurt Griffin. Taking Cousins was a good move by Shanahan but a bad move for a #2 draft pick. Griffin's ego hurt him a bit, too. But the head butting on that selection and the draft picks that allowed us to do so set this team back. Griffin played well in year one and likely would have had a fairly solid career in DC if HE, the coach and the owner were on the same page from day 1. They weren't and it flopped.

You have effectively articulated all sides, however your 1st point appears to slightly under represent (or simply..not dive deep enough into) the merit that it projects.

 

I present you with 1(a).

 

1(a). A winning culture is earned through winning, displays of determination through on field adversity and player dynamics (my apologies in advance....example: TH4's "it" factor)

 

I said it.  I'm no apologist ..but, the Lord forgives.

[tomwvr]

5 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I’d like to see him get 8 games or so. Next 3 games likely dictate where we go at QB.

I agree - unless taylor plays so well that we win the next 3 games there is no reason to ever play wentz, and to play howell if we get eliminated from playoff contention .however we lose all the games its time to play Howell the rest of the season. 
Now if Ron wants to put wentz back in when he is healthy we wont see howell until

the last 2-3 games.

 

i doubt taylor can win enough to get us to the playoffs but as long as he wins we get fewer games to see howell

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

I knew Snyder would be brought into this and its true but Im trying to stay off that topic for a while.

The problem is you can’t talk about this franchise and not include Snyder and have any real conversations, as sad as that is.
 

 

40 minutes ago, dc1 said:

You have effectively articulated all sides, however your 1st point appears to slightly under represent (or simply..not dive deep enough into) the merit that it projects.

 

I present you with 1(a).

 

1(a). A winning culture is earned through winning, displays of determination through on field adversity and player dynamics (my apologies in advance....example: TH4's "it" factor)

 

I said it.  I'm no apologist ..but, the Lord forgives.

 All true, but we were the best team in the NFC Least two years ago and we haven’t gotten better… or worse. We’re just… there.

 

We are extremely consistent in that we’re just never really good. But also never absolutely awful.

 

As far as TH’s magic… the guy is 8-8. That’s a .500 season and just about where we are every year record wise. As one of the biggest Alex Smith supporters here he has consistently been a bigger winner than Heinicke but he didn’t have the ability that, even if healthy, would have ever put us over the top.

 

Just more towards the middle years.

 

I’d like to see us win… with a group of young guys. Even .500 with a bunch of young guns gaining experience. But we typically have a bunch of vets around who aren’t necessarily going to be a part of the long term that makes the mediocre seasons just feel kind of ****ty. Like there’s no forward movement. Just kicking the can. 
 

Howell being in there winning is exciting. Heinicke being in there winning isn’t because we know, ultimately, he isn’t going to be the long term answer at QB. 

[skins island connection]

 

 One important aspect to keep in mind regarding FAs and draft picks is having a competent coaching staff to further them along.

That is one thing this team doesn't have. They seem content or unable to teach fundamental techniques, tendencies for and against a player or opponent and apparantly quality game planning.

I agree the talent at QB position isn't top notch but with a solid team a winning record can be achieved,

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

Hypothetically speaking which of the following gives us a better chance of a winning season:

 

1. Current Roster as it is with $28m tied up in Wentz for the year

2. Taylor on his current contract as the starter, but with the rest of the cap space spent on trying to bring in elite players at skill positions?

 

No there's no meaning behind it just Thursday morning thoughts, but I would probably go for the second option and see if we can't trade for or offer big money to a couple of elite players