New OC Thread (Welcome Aboard Eric Bieniemy!)

[RandyHolt]

Bingo.

[Est.1974]

Should run a poll, Turner in or out for 2023. I’d happily kick him out right now.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’m just curious how many actually pay attention to post game analysis?   Not just PFF, but guys like Cooley, Bullock, etc.  Or better yet, watch the All22 on your own?

 

A common theme here for decades is to complain about the OC - you all did it with Kyle and McVay too, even though many pretend they didn’t.  
 

The tape doesn’t lie.  I’m confident that this week, like most weeks, there were quick throws available that weren’t made quickly, and ended up in sacks or incompletions that killed drives.

[CobraCommander]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m just curious how many actually pay attention to post game analysis?   Not just PFF, but guys like Cooley, Bullock, etc.  Or better yet, watch the All22 on your own?

 

A common theme here for decades is to complain about the OC - you all did it with Kyle and McVay too, even though many pretend they didn’t.  
 

The tape doesn’t lie.  I’m confident that this week, like most weeks, there were quick throws available that weren’t made quickly, and ended up in sacks or incompletions that killed drives.

It''s funny because to start the season I blamed Scott Turner but as the season has gone on, I think the problem is more QB/Oline. For me that blame lies at Rivera's feet. Giving Wentz 28 million and bringing in washed up olinemen has really hurt this offense. We have weapons. I'll take our RB's and WR's all day long. They are good. We just don't have the other side of the equation. 

[skinzplay]

(a) we're not going to jet sweep our way to the playoffs, (b) we have Robinson, who was KILLING the Giants, yet we run Samuels up the middle on a critical 3rd and a manageable 3

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

It''s funny because to start the season I blamed Scott Turner but as the season has gone on, I think the problem is more QB/Oline. For me that blame lies at Rivera's feet. Giving Wentz 28 million and bringing in washed up olinemen has really hurt this offense. We have weapons. I'll take our RB's and WR's all day long. They are good. We just don't have the other side of the equation. 

I don’t love Scott Turner.  I particularly didn’t love him when he kept trying to drop Wentz back as if there wasn’t sufficient evidence that the interior OL was worthless and he has cinder blocks for feet.

 

But when he’s forced to run it, he’s been creative and found ways to disguise runs and design play action that gets TH throws that I could make.

 

That doesn’t mean he doesn’t get too cute at times, but so does most every remotely innovative OC.  I won’t be surprised if at some point down the road, he gets a better feel for situational play calling.  Likely it won’t be here, but he’s not the gump a lot of folks say he is.

[FootballZombie]

38 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

He has done some boneheaded stuff, but its hard not to give him props when he is crafting a functional offense w/ basically half of one. He's out here re-attaching chunks of cheeseburgers and giving you a meal.

 

At the end of the day he has not shown to be a high level coach, but most of that is because he simply did not have access to the needed tools.

 

When it comes to Scott, it is less a question about how he has performed, and more about would you trust him to be able to in an environment where he gets a decent shake. The Wentz absolute commitment to the pass that rivaled our commitment to the run under TH scared the lights outta me b/c it clearly was not gonna work and Scott was determined to die on the sword rather than adjust. When you basically handcuff the guy and forced him to adjust, he did, and he was able to squeeze some life outta the O.

 

It was a tiny sample size, but as long as we have a flexible Scott, I'm not too afraid of him overall. He can scheme guys open and make his QBs job easier. (As long as they have time in the system as it is very hard to pick up) If we have stubborn Scott that dude will achieve "we are gonna run the Zero blitz until it works" levels of dumb.

[skinny21]

8 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

He has done some boneheaded stuff, but its hard not to give him props when he is crafting a functional offense w/ basically half of one. He's out here re-attaching chunks of cheeseburgers and giving you a meal.

 

At the end of the day he has not shown to be a high level coach, but most of that is because he simply did not have access to the needed tools.

 

When it comes to Scott, it is less a question about how he has performed, and more about would you trust him to be able to in an environment where he gets a decent shake. The Wentz absolute commitment to the pass that rivaled our commitment to the run under TH scared the lights outta me b/c it clearly was not gonna work and Scott was determined to die on the sword rather than adjust. When you basically handcuff the guy and forced him to adjust, he did, and he was able to squeeze some life outta the O.

 

It was a tiny sample size, but as long as we have a flexible Scott, I'm not too afraid of him overall. He can scheme guys open and make his QBs job easier. (As long as they have time in the system as it is very hard to pick up) If we have stubborn Scott that dude will achieve "we are gonna run the Zero blitz until it works" levels of dumb.

One question I have is whether the change in offense was his decision or Rivera’s, because being flexible after being told to be flexible is a different animal -  he was pass happy with Heinicke last year as well.  I do believe he is a smart play designer, I’m not at all sold on his ability as a play caller though.  Not claiming he’s bad at it (though he’s had his share of bad calls), just not sure if he’s any good on that front.

 

I’m curious why we didn’t run more PA passing this game.  And if Robinson got banged up - saw him get up gingerly on a later run and he didn’t get much work after that - because if not, he should have gotten more work for sure.

[skins island connection]

 What they're missing right now is speed, as in McKissic ; that guy was a bolt of lightning and a good 3rd dn option. 

I've seen it alot in Gibson and not quite as much in Robinson, but both have that tendency to hesitate before trying to hit a hole, its a rare sight to see them bounce it outside where Gibson's speed could get some good yardage and Robinson getting a good head of steam so nobody wants to tackle him.

[skinzplay]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I’m curious why we didn’t run more PA passing this game.

 

Good question, bad coaching. From Keim:

 

Washington attempted 10 play-action passes, tied for its third lowest total of the season. This should be an O built off PA, especially considering how they've been running the ball. Oh, they managed 157 yards off PA -- second highest of the season.

[JSSkinz]

Scott wants to open up the play book and get cute on 1st down but this team cant execute those plays, and teams have watched film, they're ready for the Samuel quick handoff/jet sweep.  Just go look at the first drive of the Giants game.

 

Please stop calling 3 and 5 step drops inside our 10, The Giants sacked Heinicke at the 1 in the first game and he was lucky not to fumble, this time it killed us.

 

[RansomthePasserby]

12 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

 

Good question, bad coaching. From Keim:

 

Washington attempted 10 play-action passes, tied for its third lowest total of the season. This should be an O built off PA, especially considering how they've been running the ball. Oh, they managed 157 yards off PA -- second highest of the season.

Exactly, I distinctly remember seeing one play action roll out against the Giants that worked beautifully, then never seeing it again. We have a strong running game and a short QB, PA bootlegs should be a staple of our passing game. I know it’s boring, but I bet we would be much more consistent lining up under center, running the ball north-south, and building the pass off of the run using PA. 
 

And we should throw out the section of the playbook with shotgun formation 5 step drop back passes, especially within 15 yards of either goal line. That was the cause of both of our turnovers.

[Conn]

 

 

[skinny21]

@Skinsinparadise Didn’t want to clutter the draft thread with semi off topic stuff.  To your point about Turner’s pass happy vs run heavy being predicated by the qb…

1) we were pass happy last year with Taylor - Roullier was injured the game before the bye and we then switched to run heavy.

2) Turner talked about needing to run the ball more with Wentz prior to the Titans game, of course we couldn’t convert on 3rd downs that game, so who knows how it would have gone otherwise.

3) Chicago we ran more than we had to that point

4) we threw 41 times with Taylor the first Giants game (not including sacks/scrambles),

5) If Wentz were to start, would you want them to go back to pass heavy?

 

I totally understand that one could point to most of those issues and give different context to argue it’s more about the qb, and that’s fair.  In my original post, I almost added the disclaimer that it could be predominantly about the qb.  I think my 5th point above is the salient one though - no matter who the qb is (this season), I think we’d need to maintain a heavy run style because our oline is garbage at pass pro.  But if we fix the oline issues next year, do we then deviate from this identity that has gotten us most of our wins over the past two years?

 

I think we do, because I don’t believe this current offensive iteration is Turner’s preferred style of offense.  Personally, I think the offense we’re currently running - including the synergy with the defense - would be a great way to go with a young guy (like Howell) or even a vet that’s learning the system.  As they get comfortable (and maybe depending on the matchup), we could start opening the offense up.

 

Edit:  I just reread your post and realized I’m somewhat rambling here ^ (in the context of your post).  Agree that it would be difficult to both find a qb that works as the focal point, and it’s probably going to be tough to improve the oline enough in pass pro to lean into the pass happy tendency (that I believe Turner prefers).  Also agree, as I allude to above, that we’re probably best off leaning on this current identity.  

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by skinny21

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise Didn’t want to clutter the draft thread with semi off topic stuff.  To your point about Turner’s pass happy vs run heavy being predicated by the qb…

1) we were pass happy last year with Taylor - Roullier was injured the game before the bye and we then switched to run heavy.

2) Turner talked about needing to run the ball more with Wentz prior to the Titans game, of course we couldn’t convert on 3rd downs that game, so who knows how it would have gone otherwise.

3) Chicago we ran more than we had to that point

4) we threw 41 times with Taylor the first Giants game (not including sacks/scrambles),

5) If Wentz were to start, would you want them to go back to pass heavy?

 

I totally understand that one could point to most of those issues and give different context to argue it’s more about the qb, and that’s fair.  In my original post, I almost added the disclaimer that it could be predominantly about the qb.  I think my 5th point above is the salient one though - no matter who the qb is (this season), I think we’d need to maintain a heavy run style because our oline is garbage at pass pro.  But if we fix the oline issues next year, do we then deviate from this identity that has gotten us most of our wins over the past two years?

 

I think we do, because I don’t believe this current offensive iteration is Turner’s preferred style of offense.  Personally, I think the offense we’re currently running - including the synergy with the defense - would be a great way to go with a young guy (like Howell) or even a vet that’s learning the system.  As they get comfortable (and maybe depending on the matchup), we could start opening the offense up.

 

Edit:  I just reread your post and realized I’m somewhat rambling here ^ (in the context of your post).  Agree that it would be difficult to both find a qb that works as the focal point, and it’s probably going to be tough to improve the oline enough in pass pro to lean into the pass happy tendency (that I believe Turner prefers).  Also agree, as I allude to above, that we’re probably best off leaning on this current identity.  

 

 

For those who were high on Wentz when we acquired him, most had the thesis that the idea that Frank Reich was the Wentz whisper (as some NFL insiders have said) was nonsense.  That Reich used Wentz in a run heavy offense and in turn puts the breaks on him.  Instead, the way to run Wentz is to let it fly.  Throw 45-50 times a game not 25-30 and rely on Jonathan Taylor.     Use Carson like he's Dan Marino.  

 

As Greg Cosell  (who is a big Wentz guy relatively speaking) said he could see as the season progressed the Colts didn't trust Wentz in a pass heavy offense and went more old school with the running game leading it.

 

So those who thought Reich didn't know what he was doing with Wentz, time hasn't been their friend.  Looks like Reich was right to run an offense ironically similar to what we are running now. 

 

I presume Scott Turner learned the same lesson.  As for Scott himself as a playcaller.  I have to rewatch the games in the off season to come up with a definitive take.  How much is on him and how much the QB-O line.  It's tough for me to tell in real time.  I recall some ripping some of our previous play callers and then one off season I watched the games back slowly with coaches tape and could see guys wide open and plays still not being made.

 

My gut on Scott right now is this.  Average.  Doesn't suck.  Isn't great.  Calls some good games.  Calls some bad games.  People who are average are rarely straight line average.  Joe Banner who worked with Turner had that take -- OK, nothing bad, nothing good, so so.

 

When I've studied the run game, I've mostly liked what I've seen.  Pass game -- sometimes OK, sometimes I hate it.  I am not in the camp that the team would be like lost puppies if they find a stud young QB.  For starters the QB coach is critical on that front, and Ken Zampese is considered one of the best in the business.  Also i am big into the QB himself as being key to their own success.   While I think a good offensive coordinator maximizes any players success.  I also think the player and the supporting cast is central. 

 

I LOVE this supporting cast.  Robinson, Gibson, McKissic (when he's back) and Samuel, Dotson, Terry IMO is the best cast since the SB era.   They need a TE and they need to juice the O line back. 

 

I don't think its easy to find a franchise QB.  I usually am a fan of blow it all up and start over but i think that's nuts with this defense and this supporting cast on offense.  I think its Turner's wheel house to call a Marty Ball style game (for reasons I elaborated on in other threads) as opposed to a spread chuck the ball down the field offense.  I think if we find just average QB play, add a Y TE and fix the O line we are a playoff team and win a game or two playoff team.  

Edited December 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[@DCGoldPants]

 

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

Robinson has one carry for 2 yards in the RZ?   How is that possible?    

[MrJL]

48 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Robinson has one carry for 2 yards in the RZ?   How is that possible?    

 

Because Turner wants to turn the game into a battle of the minds.  He wants to trick and outsmart out opponents, not out play them.  His ideal run play isn't one where every blocker wins their battle and so the runner gets yardage but one where everyone on the D is flowing right and the run is to the left so no one touches the back.  His ideal pass isn't one where the WR beats the coverage it's one where the WR is uncovered by 10 yds cause no one was expecting that pass play and so he was totally uncovered

[Riggo-toni]

Trai Turner and Norwell were probowl guards in Carolina, but declined precipitously. Ron put too much faith in past performance and the offense is handcuffed as a result. The recent drafts have been solid, except for OL. I can't fault taking Jamin Davis, as he seems to have genuinely blossomed in his second season, but Darrisaw might have been a bigger impact player - a franchise LT... whereas Cosmi looks like a satisfactory RT, who might at some point move inside to RG. We are witnessing just how much a dropoff there is from Roullier and Scherff on the inside.  There are definitely things I question about Turner, but it's hard to completely lay all the blame at his feet since we have our worst OL since "sacks and stuff."

[method man]

18 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

Trai Turner and Norwell were probowl guards in Carolina, but declined precipitously. Ron put too much faith in past performance and the offense is handcuffed as a result. The recent drafts have been solid, except for OL. I can't fault taking Jamin Davis, as he seems to have genuinely blossomed in his second season, but Darrisaw might have been a bigger impact player - a franchise LT... whereas Cosmi looks like a satisfactory RT, who might at some point move inside to RG. We are witnessing just how much a dropoff there is from Roullier and Scherff on the inside.  There are definitely things I question about Turner, but it's hard to completely lay all the blame at his feet since we have our worst OL since "sacks and stuff."

I was one of those who really wanted Darrisaw. Not often a toolsy LT prospect falls to you in the late teens. To be fair, I believe there were some health concerns and he has missed a significant amount of time in the league

[Warhead36]

Yeah I was big time on Darrisaw too, but he has developed a bit of an injury history already in just a couple years. But when healthy he's a stud.

 

But Davis has really taken a step up in year 2. I can't hate the pick anymore.

 

Just wish Cosmi could stay healthy.

[gortiz]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:30 AM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m just curious how many actually pay attention to post game analysis?   Not just PFF, but guys like Cooley, Bullock, etc.  Or better yet, watch the All22 on your own?

 

A common theme here for decades is to complain about the OC - you all did it with Kyle and McVay too, even though many pretend they didn’t.  
 

The tape doesn’t lie.  I’m confident that this week, like most weeks, there were quick throws available that weren’t made quickly, and ended up in sacks or incompletions that killed drives.

 

awesome breakdown of carson's brief appearance by Bullock! and in this instance, the quick throws were available in the face of a lot of blitzing (and not a prevent D like some are claiming) and carson for sure hit them 

 

https://markbullock.substack.com/p/carson-wentz-looks-sharp-in-brief?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=270255&post_id=93310680&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

[method man]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I was big time on Darrisaw too, but he has developed a bit of an injury history already in just a couple years. But when healthy he's a stud.

 

But Davis has really taken a step up in year 2. I can't hate the pick anymore.

 

Just wish Cosmi could stay healthy.

What I didn’t like was letting Moses go when we signed Leno. I understand it may have caused a logjam and they wanted to start Cosmi right away but having Moses would have provided the extra depth in 2021 and he would have been a starter this year

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, method man said:

What I didn’t like was letting Moses go when we signed Leno. I understand it may have caused a logjam and they wanted to start Cosmi right away but having Moses would have provided the extra depth in 2021 and he would have been a starter this year

Rivera just completely effed up the OL. We had Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff, and Morgan Moses and let em all walk for essentially nothing(I know we got two late round picks for Williams, but dude is basically a HOF LT that isn't nearly enough).

[MrJL]

Trent can't be blamed on him