The (New) Offensive Line Thread

[MartinC]

14 hours ago, UK Skins said:

 

Love this post Morneblade. I see the UDFA tackle is now being called a tweener, and Daniels certainly sounds like a guard, not a tackle. None of the FAs sound like tackles (yeah I know one of them played tackle in the Superbowl but come on). It's almost as if our management think they are cleverer than they really are. Let's sign a bunch of guard-sized people and hope one of them can actually play tackle. They did the same with Cosmi last year.

 

We're going to end up with a bunch of under-sized linemen who get destroyed by our NFC East opponents.

Average weight of an NFL O’line player is 314. Our line is right around that average. 
 

I don’t think our issue is the size of our O’Line players, the issue is that it lacks a couple of real stand out Pro Bowl calibre players. We have depth but not quality.

[Koolblue13]

Sucking at Tackle, doesn't mean you have position flex. It's like if I hire a guy to be a cook, but all he can do is wash dishes, he doesn't have position flex. He's a dishwasher.

 

We built a line to plug guys in anywhere when they go down, but don't have anyone who locks a position down, outside of Leno.

 

We have 1 Oline position on the depth chart written in pen and that's only because there is no one close to taking that job.

 

I thought that was our main priority this offseason. Wylie, an average Guard that we'll play at Rackle, Gates, a below average guard we'll play at center, a developmental rookie and a rookie tackle who is too small to play guard. 

19 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

We need to stop complaining about anything and everything. Especially when data doesn't back up the complaints.

 

The best guard in the league had position flex entering the league. OT/OG prospect Zach Martin. He's now 6 time All-Pro at Guard and likely going to the HoF. When injuries hit he's the emergency OT, which has happened a few times.

 

Brandon Scherff was another. He made multiple pro bowls.

 

Eagles love drafting Centers with Guard flex. Both of their starting Guards were drafted as Centers. Dickerson made the pro bowl last year because his flexibility let them optimize their starting lineup.

 

Position flex is great, we want position flex.

Flex is for back ups.

 

Scherff and Martin are bad at Tackle, that isn't flex.

 

Eagles drafted guys to be the Center, but the HoF Center they already have stops retiring and then they lock the player into 1 position. Because starters don't need flex.

[Skinsinparadise]

Ideal scenaro

 

Stromberg is the future at C

Cosmi -- is really good at RG and is durable

Chris Paul -- lives up to his billing from practice, and athletic traits at LG

Daniels is the future at RT.

 

Just leaving LT to be fixed down the road.

 

Do i think this all happens?  No.   But I'd bet on 2 of the 4 working out, give or take.

 

I like this roster.  Defense IMO is the most stacked I can recall in eons.  I like the weapons on offense.  QB is a wildcard.

 

O line to me feels like round 2 of what will derail next season and all hands are on deck next off season to fix it.   If this season goes off the rails, Ron IMO made his bed.  I am not a fan of forcing any pick in the draft.  So I am ok with them not going O line in round 1 in particular.  But IMO they should have taken the spot much more seriously in FA.

 

The only thing that I think will be a bonafide upgrade from last off season at O line is center which shouldn't fall apart like it did.  Even without Rouillier, its a three deep spot. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

   If this season goes off the rails, Ron IMO made his bed.  I am not a fan of forcing any pick in the draft.  So I am ok with them not going O line in round 1 in particular.  But IMO they should have taken the spot much more seriously in FA.

It’s interesting because Gates was brought in to play C I think. EB has subsequently clearly pushed for Stromberg. He will start and I think Gates will pick up a G place as a starters. EB must have also have pushed for Wylie at RT. 
 

We’ve probably gone from a 4/10 to a 7/10 in my option. We’ll be better than average. Will look a whole lot better in 2024 when we bring in a stud LT.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

It’s interesting because Gates was brought in to play C I think. EB has subsequently clearly pushed for Stromberg. He will start and I think Gates will pick up a G place as a starters. EB must have also have pushed for Wylie at RT. 
 

We’ve probably gone from a 4/10 to a 7/10 in my option. We’ll be better than average. Will look a whole lot better in 2024 when we bring in a stud LT.

 

I get the vibe that Stromberg was beyond EB.  Rivera referenced having lunch with Stromberg when he came for the visit.  Stromberg referenced meeting with Mayhew for awhile.  And Rivera's song for the demise of the O line last year centered on the center spot.

 

Gates Rivera mentioned would play center.  I am guessing he's the starter.  Larsen and Stromberg the backups. 

 

I like Stromberg as the long tem solution at center.  I think Cosmi can be a really good guard if he stays healthy.  but that's a big if.  Paul is talented but a bit raw.  

 

They needed things to break their way.  And it might.  But it would suprise me more if this unit is good than it would if it was bad.  I wouldn't go as far as Matt Miller below about it being the shakiest O line in the NFL.  But I do think the idea of the O line sucking is on the table.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2023/insider/story/_/id/36187363/2023-nfl-draft-best-picks-worst-reaches-favorite-fits-trades-rookie-predictions

Which team produced your least favorite class?

Miller: Washington Commanders. Not selecting a quarterback or offensive tackle in the entire draft was a bold strategy for a team with question marks at both spots. The Commanders are truly all-in on Sam Howell and veteran Jacoby Brissett at quarterback and might have the shakiest offensive line in the entire NFL after Arizona shored up its unit with Paris Johnson Jr. in Round 1.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[UK Skins]

4 hours ago, MartinC said:

Average weight of an NFL O’line player is 314. Our line is right around that average. 

 

Depending on the player I've heard concerns about arm length, height, and/or weight to play tackle, in some cases multiple concerns. As SIP has just opined, this O Line has the potential to suck donkey balls. It might anyway but one injury and we are screwed.

[DWinzit]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I get the vibe that Stromberg was beyond EB.  Rivera referenced having lunch with Stromberg when he came for the visit.  Stromberg referenced meeting with Mayhew for awhile.  And Rivera's song for the demise of the O line last year centered on the center spot.

 

Gates Rivera mentioned would play center.  I am guessing he's the starter.  Larsen and Stromberg the backups. 

 

I like Stromberg as the long tem solution at center.  I think Cosmi can be a really good guard if he stays healthy.  but that's a big if.  Paul is talented but a bit raw.  

 

They needed things to break their way.  And it might.  But it would suprise me more if this unit is good than it would if it was bad.  I wouldn't go as far as Matt Miller below about it being the shakiest O line in the NFL.  But I do think the idea of the O line sucking is on the table.

To this point I have assumed the offensive players have met both RR and EB's criteria for what they wanted.

 

You aren't suggesting Strom was not an EB pick are you? Hoping it was RR, Mayew and EB all in agreement.

 

I must say, when they announced pick 47 I was figuring we's either hear Mauch or Torrence with an outside shot at JMS or Steen.

 

Third round OL I had Strom #2 after Dawand and just ahead of Zavala.

 

 

[HigSkin]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2023/insider/story/_/id/36187363/2023-nfl-draft-best-picks-worst-reaches-favorite-fits-trades-rookie-predictions

Which team produced your least favorite class?

Miller: Washington Commanders. Not selecting a quarterback or offensive tackle in the entire draft was a bold strategy for a team with question marks at both spots. The Commanders are truly all-in on Sam Howell and veteran Jacoby Brissett at quarterback and might have the shakiest offensive line in the entire NFL after Arizona shored up its unit with Paris Johnson Jr. in Round 1.

 

Weird because Miller kind of contradicts himself in this interview with Hoffman but he admittedly isn't a Sam Howell fan and that there was that early run on tackles.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by HigSkin

[Warhead36]

I think the only OL we would have taken in round 1 were Johnson, Skoronski, and Wright. Once they were all taken there was nobody worth taking in the 1st.

 

Maybe we could have taken someone in the 2nd, but we'll see if any of them end up as good as Martin.

 

And we took two other OL from the 3rd on. Stromberg looks like he could be a starter or key contributor as early as year 1. 

 

I think its a little bit disingenuous to say we didn't address OL in the draft. 

[kingdaddy]

5 hours ago, MartinC said:

Average weight of an NFL O’line player is 314. Our line is right around that average. 
 

I don’t think our issue is the size of our O’Line players, the issue is that it lacks a couple of real stand out Pro Bowl calibre players. We have depth but not quality.

We also have EB now and he's gonna push the envelope big time on the O-line and hopefully will design an offense to their strengths as well. Cosmi is a 2nd round pick and needs to stay healthy and start ballin. We signed the two free agents who should be upgrades to what we had. I don't disagree with your points but I'm betting EB makes an impact with these linemen.

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think its a little bit disingenuous to say we didn't address OL in the draft. 

I agree...we did address it as well as in free agency. There should be good competition in camp with this group assuming the rookies are up to speed decently fast.

[Morneblade]

16 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

OL are already different from the other positions, because they're some of the few who stay in every play.  You start getting specialists for the OL eventually you'll have a shotgun center, an under center center, a pass defending LT, a run blocker LT

 Nice strawman.

How about we just stick to guys that play C, G, and OT? Huh? For the starters?

Poistion flex for backups? Sure, good idea. But I want quality for starters. I'm not sure why you don't.

13 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

We also have EB now and he's gonna push the envelope big time on the O-line and hopefully will design an offense to their strengths as well. Cosmi is a 2nd round pick and needs to stay healthy and start ballin. We signed the two free agents who should be upgrades to what we had. I don't disagree with your points but I'm betting EB makes an impact with these linemen.

I agree...we did address it as well as in free agency. There should be good competition in camp with this group assuming the rookies are up to speed decently fast.

 

I don't see any real upgrades, at all. Lateral moves. We went after mid-low tier players. Look at our DL, and then look at our OL. It's night and day. We have been skimping on OL for years, and we've paid the price.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Morneblade

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, UK Skins said:

. It might anyway but one injury and we are screwed.

I’m concerned about the line as well, but on this I disagree. If we have done anything this off-season we have built depth. 

[KDawg]

Injuries are not my concern. My concern is our line is made up of potential (Roullier, Larsen, Stromberg) in one place and middle of the road options across the board but also has some guys with significant injury concerns. Injuries will worsen the line, but because the whole line is middle of the road (at best) we won't notice it as much as in the past. We just don't have a great line.

 

But if they gel and the injury prone guys are healthy and they have a chance to come together we could have a true middle of the road line. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

22 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

We need to stop complaining about anything and everything. Especially when data doesn't back up the complaints.

 

The best guard in the league had position flex entering the league. OT/OG prospect Zach Martin. He's now 6 time All-Pro at Guard and likely going to the HoF. When injuries hit he's the emergency OT, which has happened a few times.

 

Brandon Scherff was another. He made multiple pro bowls.

 

Eagles love drafting Centers with Guard flex. Both of their starting Guards were drafted as Centers. Dickerson made the pro bowl last year because his flexibility let them optimize their starting lineup.

 

Position flex is great, we want position flex.

 

Correction: Brandon Scherff failed at RT which forced the move inside to guard.  That is not position flexibility  

[skinny21]

Just now, KDawg said:

Injuries are not my concern. My concern is our line is made up of potential (Roullier, Larsen, Stromberg) in one place and middle of the road options across the board but also has some guys with significant injury concerns. Injuries will worsen the line, but because the whole line is middle of the road (at best) we won't notice it as much as in the past. We just don't have a great line.

 

But if they gel and the injury prone guys are healthy and they have a chance to come together we could have a true middle of the road line. 

Exactly - the problem is the ceiling, not the floor for this group.  

 

I’m certainly not enamored with the oline, but at least we’ve gotten younger, added some potential, and (seemingly) improved our depth.  No issue with those complaining about the lack of higher end talent though (not that you’re saying otherwise).

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Anytime you replace Turner and Norwell you have improved your offensive line.  So yes it's better, it almost has to be better. But it is still not nearly good enough, especially when you are trying to develop a young QB.  I would have thought the QB situation would have meant more urgency, but again I didn't want them to reach to fill a need so there's that too.

[seantaylor=god]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ideal scenaro

 

Stromberg is the future at C

Cosmi -- is really good at RG and is durable

Chris Paul -- lives up to his billing from practice, and athletic traits at LG

Daniels is the future at RT.

 

Just leaving LT to be fixed down the road.

 

Do i think this all happens?  No.   But I'd bet on 2 of the 4 working out, give or take.

 

I like this roster.  Defense IMO is the most stacked I can recall in eons.  I like the weapons on offense.  QB is a wildcard.

 

O line to me feels like round 2 of what will derail next season and all hands are on deck next off season to fix it.   If this season goes off the rails, Ron IMO made his bed.  I am not a fan of forcing any pick in the draft.  So I am ok with them not going O line in round 1 in particular.  But IMO they should have taken the spot much more seriously in FA.

 

The only thing that I think will be a bonafide upgrade from last off season at O line is center which shouldn't fall apart like it did.  Even without Rouillier, its a three deep spot. 

I agree with your assessment. 
 

I’m just hoping that we aren’t finished at oline, and that in the next few months we end up signing a quality FA at OG that gets cut. Not a guy with position flex, but an actual starter quality NFL OG.

[RabidFan]

16 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

Undersized how? Weight, height, or both?

 

Weight they say for a OT.  He has weight and height and athleticism for a pulling guard perhaps.  Just figured he looks much more athletic in his film vs others going that late in the draft.  Why not try it as the Saddiq Charles experiment has gone nowhere for years and he was taken in the 3rd wasn't he?

[skinny21]

Random, but how is the average weight for tackles 314 when there are about 5 guys weighing between 360 and 380?

[PlayAction]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

I don't see any real upgrades, at all. Lateral moves. We went after mid-low tier players. Look at our DL, and then look at our OL. It's night and day. We have been skimping on OL for years, and we've paid the price.

 

DL - 4 first round picks, 1 second round.  

 

OL - 1 second round? 

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Random, but how is the average weight for tackles 314 when there are about 5 guys weighing between 360 and 380?

314 is the league wide average for all O’line positions (or at least it was, I think that number was from last year but I doubt it’s changed much). 

[FootballZombie]

I'm not sure how some of you are confident this will be a substantially better unit.

 

As I see it, we have to hope the O-line sauce is better than the individual ingredients that create it. That panned out in 2021 to a good degree, where we made some magic with some random pieces, but totally flopped in 2022. 

 

I am not confident that this oline can be good, especially bringing in a new O line coach and new O coordinator. We could be running schemes that are a far cry from what our carryover are used to.

[Warhead36]

Just now, FootballZombie said:

I'm not sure how some of you are confident this will be a substantially better unit.

 

As I see it, we have to hope the O-line sauce is better than the individual ingredients that create it. That panned out in 2021 to a good degree, where we made some magic with some random pieces, but totally flopped in 2022. 

 

I am not confident that this oline can be good, especially bringing in a new O line coach and new O coordinator. We could be running schemes that are a far cry from what our carryover are used to.

I'm hopeful they can be average. I think EB's schemes and hopefully a QB that can get rid of the ball on time and in rhythm should help matters.

 

But its absolutely the weak link of our team right now, and that includes the QB position.

[Est.1974]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get the vibe that Stromberg was beyond EB.  Rivera referenced having lunch with Stromberg when he came for the visit.  Stromberg referenced meeting with Mayhew for awhile.  And Rivera's song for the demise of the O line last year centered on the center spot.

 

Gates Rivera mentioned would play center.  I am guessing he's the starter.  Larsen and Stromberg the backups. 

 

I like Stromberg as the long tem solution at center.  I think Cosmi can be a really good guard if he stays healthy.  but that's a big if.  Paul is talented but a bit raw.  

Yeah Mayhew was heavily involved by the sounds of it.

 

I think it will be

LT Leno

LG Gates or best of the rest.

C Stromberg 

RG Gates or best of the rest

RT Wylie

 

I would still consider Dalton Risner in FA for LG, Gates RG, the rest can back-up IMO.

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

But its absolutely the weak link of our team right now, and that includes the QB position.

 

I'd say TE.

Hope and prayer w/ that group.