The All Things 2022 OTAs/Training Camp Thread

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

It boggles my mind that Bostic is back after we cast him out during the offseason and the Saints cast him out after the pre-season. Of all the free agent signings under Gruden and Allen, I didn't think Bostic would be the one to stick around.

Wow….I was about to question your memory since you said Bostic was here under gruden and Allen. But you’re right. Why do I not remember we signed him in 2019? 

40 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Well ****, shows how much I've been in the loop.  Hopefully Coach Gruden has a plan then.

Gruden? Who’s he? Isn’t shanahan our coach? 
 

hopefully sexy rexy plays well this year!!! 

[RWJ]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Unless I missed a cut, I gather Eilfer is that guy.  Young backups seem to be the theme in most positions. 

 

 

 

Heis on the current roster as of now.    Team | Washington Commanders - Commanders.com

[NickyJ]

45 minutes ago, wit33 said:

A dude lasts 8 seasons in the NFL gets a label of sucking. Wild. 
 

He knows the defense, can play either LB spot and appears to have elite intangibles. I get the angst if he was given 3 year deal or something. 
 

How do you come to the conclusion Jamin was undeniably better last season? Truly curious, I don’t really know the answer.  

Jon has been playing since 2013. His first team was the Bears, which cut him after his third year in 2015. In the 7 years since then, there's only one single team that he's managed to stick to for more than a single season. Us. After leaving us, he survived all of 15 days on the Saints' roster. He sucks. When a player is young, sucking isn't his ceiling. At 31 years old, it's his ceiling.

 

I come to the conclusion that Jamin was undeniably better because I watched them play lol. Bostic was late to the plays, and was poor in coverage iirc. Jamin at least had the speed to make up for late decisions. Every fan in the game day threads noticed it too. The defense was struggling last season, but Rivera/JDR benched Bostic and didn't look back.

 

  

24 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Wow….I was about to question your memory since you said Bostic was here under gruden and Allen. But you’re right. Why do I not remember we signed him in 2019? 

It's probably because Bostic was just kind of a dude at the time. Reuben Foster was still the talk of the town with his annual injury setbacks. Bostic happened to be the insurance policy and the team never got landed anyone to improve it.

Edited September 1, 2022 by NickyJ

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

I think you have really reasonable criticisms wrapped up somewhere at the heart of most of your concerns, but the way you express them and how overboard you go drives me nuts. And I’m a negative and cynical poster here most of the time lol.

Huh.  I wouldn't have classified you that way.  I think you're one of the more reasonable posters.  I guess the caveat is on the football posts. 

 

About the "other" side, eh, maybe slightly more on the negative and cynical side. 

 

The most negative gameday poster, by a mile, is @Warhead36.  One negative thing happens and we're never scoring a point again the remainder of the season.   

 

Then there is @TradeTheBeal! who gets hot and bothered every time we attempt a forward pass instead of running 50-gut 384 straight times.  

 

Then there is me who screams and yells at every first down run, and even more on runs in 2nd and long.  

 

(I kid because I love....)

[Zim489]

47 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I disagree that this is a safe, middle of the road team.  I think it's boom or bust and that's really due to the nature of Wentz as a player.  He's either a super explosive playmaker or he kills you by either getting hurt or making back-breaking mistakes.  The offense is squarely built around an attempt to have an explosive passing game as all of our money and resources are concentrated on Wentz, the OTs, and the three good WRs.  And on defense we essentially put all of our eggs into the basket of the DL.

 

This team was built with a philosophy to score via an explosive passing offense and then let the pass rush carry the defense.  We'll see if it works.  Wentz might not be good enough any more.  The WRs might not be good enough to generate enough explosive plays.  The DL might not be good enough to consistently get home and wreck drives.  And if this build isn't good enough, then it'll eventually be time to move on from this FO and start over.  But I'd say they definitely took a shot on creating a team with a high ceiling.

I completely disagree about what the offense was built for. Feel like it’ll be grind it out keep games close and limit Carson from making the big mistakes by lots of runs and play action. 

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I completely disagree about what the offense was built for. Feel like it’ll be grind it out keep games close and limit Carson from making the big mistakes by lots of runs and play action. 

That would be ignoring all the roots to the Air Coryell style that we're running. We will run often, to set up the pass, but it's definitely going to be an explosive offense.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Contrary to various egregious assertions concerning my sincere desire to run the football, both on the gridiron and as mindset/mission statement for life itself…I’m pretty excited about Wentz’s arm talent/deep ball.

 

Having to live through Alex and Case and Ryan and HINEYHINEY takes a toll on a man…

[Captain James]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Aw shucks. Looks like we're going to be effing suck again this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

That would be ignoring all the roots to the Air Coryell style that we're running. We will run often, to set up the pass, but it's definitely going to be an explosive offense.

 

Also it would be ignoring with what reporters saw in camp which was they went deep a lot.  Some actually thought too much. 

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Contrary to various egregious assertions concerning my sincere desire to run the football, both on the gridiron and as mindset/mission statement for life itself…I’m pretty excited about Wentz’s arm talent/deep ball.

 

Having to live through Alex and Case and Ryan and HINEYHINEY takes a toll on a man…

Don't mind VoR, he thinks anything more than a 3 step drop is too much running the ball.

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Also it would be ignoring with what reporters saw in camp which was they went deep a lot.  Some actually thought too much. 

Priority #1 the past two offseasons. Get the QB so we can air it out constantly and attack down field. They get that QB and have been practicing the hell out of just what they said they would do and yet some people still think it's going to be a ground and pound and play conservative to defend a 3 point lead, kind of offense. Strange.

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Contrary to various egregious assertions concerning my sincere desire to run the football, both on the gridiron and as mindset/mission statement for life itself…I’m pretty excited about Wentz’s arm talent/deep ball.

 

Having to live through Alex and Case and Ryan and HINEYHINEY takes a toll on a man…

I think you're faking. 

 

(and after you called me out in the freaking Grilling and Cooking thread for not respecting the running game (which was awesome, btw), all gentle ribbing is fair game.)

 

 

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Don't mind VoR, he thinks anything more than a 3 step drop is too much running the ball.

That's not true.  I like 5 step, 7 step, waggles, roll-outs, sprint-outs... 

 

As an aside, It doesn't work as much anymore because backside defenders have gotten so fast they can catch the play from behind, but my favorite play in football used to be the famous Gibbs counter trap, with the pulling guard and center. If you got that thing timed up right, it was absolutely as beautiful to watch as any deep pass.  Watching Grimm and Bostic pancake a LB and Safety made my heart smile.  

 

 

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I saw that tweet, I almost posted it.  But some are so wound up about Bostic and Mayo being the backups, I didn't want to add to their angst. 

 

Personally I am ok with both as backups.

 

I'm OK with Mayo, it's the Bostic signing that appears to be a desperate move to me also.

 

Let's be honest here, their plan at the start of TC wasn't to see how it goes and then sign Bostic with just over a week until the season starts. Ideally we would have had seven or eight LBs battle it out in camp, with the best four or five making the team. But whatever plans they originally made haven't worked out and so now they've been forced to bring back a journeyman LB who's been previously cut by like six or seven teams.

 

If they had a better option they would have done it, but now we're stuck with Bostic (he should be called Bostik 😀), who is possibly an injury away from being a starter.

[Skinsinparadise]

As far as Wentz goes.

 

I agree with @Going Commando its a swing for the fences, you either have a hit or it goes south.

 

I've made similar points on the Qb thread.  It's part of why I like the move.  It's not that i am 100% sure Wentz is the right guy.  I am more optimistic than not.  But I like the attempt here because his upside is big.  This isn't swinging again for a game manager.

 

It's insane that the last QB with this team to go 30 TDs plus was Sonny G.  Kirk missed it.  Ironically, he's done it three out of 4 seasons in Minny but not here.   And even the guys we traded for, they weren't really 30 TD guys even before they got here.  Alex really wasn't a big TD guy in his career, and never hit 30 ever and typically didn't come close.  Brunell never hit 30 here or elsewhere.  Even McNabb in his long career only did it once.

 

Wentz has topped 30.  He is IMO (sans RG3) the most talented QB we've had for eons.  Maybe he fails here.  But its a much different kind of swing for the fences than the standard Qb acquisiton over the years. 

 

Standig below talking to agents.  Standig himself in his last podcast characrterized the Wentz move as likely boom-bust.  

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

34 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I completely disagree about what the offense was built for. Feel like it’ll be grind it out keep games close and limit Carson from making the big mistakes by lots of runs and play action. 

You realize he's only had more than 7 INTs in one season since his rookie season, right? 

 

I honestly don't think they're going to worry about him making big mistakes.  He's going to make mistakes, just like every QB.  It's the cost of doing business. 

 

But what I want to harp on is the phrase "offense has been built for."  

 

What investment have they made to lead you to believe they are "building" towards a grind it out offense?  Because as far as I can see, they have done NOTHING to indicate that's the type of offense they are building, save for the fact they did draft a RB in the third round.  But they also:

 

- Drafted a WR in the first round

- Re-Signed Terry McLaurin to a top 5 WR contract, and at the time the largest signing bonus for any WR ever

- Drafted a pass catching TE in the 5th round

- Signed a bunch of other athletic, pass-catching TEs as UDFAs (2 of which made the team)

- Re-Signed McKissic, who they like to move around as a receiver

- Brought in OL who are not known as road-graders, but more versatile, pass-blocking types.

 

The only move they made which did anything for their run game was Robinson.  And that seemed much more like a move they made because they didn't like who they had running the ball between the tackles more than a commitment to the run.  

 

So when you say "the offense is built for," what leads you to think they are "building" towards a "grind it out" type of offense.  

 

I'll go farther: NONE of the reporting from camp indicates this.  Sheehan, who likes to take a poop on just about everything these days, even said he has heard from people inside the building they think they have a 12-13 win offense because of their skill position guys.

 

All the reporting is in practices, they have been working the medium to deep stuff to death.  

 

As @Koolblue13 pointed out, the BONES of the Turner offense is the Air Coryell system.  Now, that DOES include a strong running game.  Since 1990, 3 teams have run that system to absolute perfection, albeit very differently:

- 1991 Redskins.  Gibbs is a direct Coryell disciple.  Power Run Game complimented by a deep passing attack

- 90's Cowboys.  Emmit running the ball, but they threw the ball down field a lot

- 2000 Rams. Mike Martz is off the tree, through Norv and maybe others.  This offense flowed much more through the pass than the run, but Faulk is the guy who made it all go.

 

Since the 2000's, several teams have used it successfully. (Chiefs, Panthers, Vikings for a bit, Chargers when Norv was there) It's always predicated on downfield passing and a complimentary run game.  

 

I don't see that changing. 

17 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

I'm OK with Mayo, it's the Bostic signing that appears to be a desperate move to me also.

 

Let's be honest here, their plan at the start of TC wasn't to see how it goes and then sign Bostic with just over a week until the season starts. Ideally we would have had seven or eight LBs battle it out in camp, with the best four or five making the team. But whatever plans they originally made haven't worked out and so now they've been forced to bring back a journeyman LB who's been previously cut by like six or seven teams.

 

If they had a better option they would have done it, but now we're stuck with Bostic (he should be called Bostik 😀), who is possibly an injury away from being a starter.

That's fair and reasonable.  They wanted to go young, and I bet anything they wanted Hudson to make the team.  But he didn't.  Eifert did, and that's good.  

 

If Bostic is your 5th LB, and I think he's behind Mayo at this point, then I'm fine with it.  

[Conn]

58 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I completely disagree about what the offense was built for. Feel like it’ll be grind it out keep games close and limit Carson from making the big mistakes by lots of runs and play action. 

That’s where the Colts failed with Wentz. You have to let him sling it and live with the errors. I think Rivera and Co. know that. Hell, Zampese told season tickets holders they want to bomb people out of existence this year in a private film review that a poster here told us about. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Look, let me give it to y'all straight:  It doesn't matter a good GodDamn how good Mayo, Bostic or the 2 new CBs are.  It doesn't matter at all, even a little bit.  If ANY of them are playing meaningful snaps, the season has gone sideways due to injury.

 

The season rests on the backs of the following players, and how well they do will determine how well the team does.  And that includes their ability to stay healthy:

 

Wentz

McLaurin

Samuel

The starting OL

McKissic

Logan Thomas

 

Jon Allen

Chase Young (When he returns)

Montez Sweat

Holcomb

Davis

Fuller

WJIII

McCain

Curl

 

Those are the best players on the team. They are the staters, essentially.   They HAVE to stay healthy and play well.  An injury here or there is expected. I don't even put Gibson, Payne, Mathis, any of the rookies, in that category yet. Those guys also need to perform.  Maybe a few break out to be stars.  Maybe not. 

 

If you look at the roster, in some order, those are guys 1-20.  Guys 20 - 30 are important.  If guys 30-50 are playing, it's a problem for just about every team.

 

Doc Walker LOVES to debate and agonize over roster spots 47-50. It's the most useless, dumbass, stupid waste of time thing in the world. 

 

It occurs to me Julie Donaldson might have been the person who put his dumb ass on TV during the preseason.  If so, it was clearly in an attempt to push more people to the radio broadcast, because she's smart enough to know better, there MUST have been a good reason to do it.  

[FootballZombie]

15 minutes ago, Conn said:

Hell, Zampese told season tickets holders they want to bomb people out of existence this year in a private film review that a poster here told us about. 

 

Not that he did anything wrong, but if I was Zampese and had to give a briefing to holders, my presentation would be one MS powerpoint slide long and entail what I was giving to my players.

 

 

I put zero weight into stuff like that.

 

He is not walking out there to tell season ticket holders anything but what they want to hear. He did what any of us would do.

 

If somebody thinks anyone in charge of... lets say the Lions, isnt telling their Season Ticket holders anything but pleasantries in a similar venue I got some sweet locally bottled in MD Antarctic Glacier water to sell ya.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

He is not walking out there to tell season ticket holders anything but what they want to hear. He did what any of us would do.

Eh, I dunno.  Yeah, I get he's preaching to the choir.  And they're certainly not going to hand out copies of the playbook.

 

But what he said also happens to correlate to what the beat guys who watched every TC practice also reported: They are working the medium to deep stuff to death.  THEN they didn't run any of it during the pre-season games.  Bram, Keim and JP all noticed and reported that.

 

The other reporting was from Sheehan, who said he has heard from people inside the building they think they have a 12-13 win offense.  That's not a ground-n-pound offense and win by 3.  That's an explosive, score lots of points offense.  And whatever issues I have with Sheehan, I don't believe he would just make that up.  

 

What Zampese said, in vague terms, what they want to do this season aligns to what the beat guys have been seeing on the practice field which aligns to what Sheehan said he heard. 

 

I think it's safe to assume the plan is to go in and be aggressive and explosive.  As Mike Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth."  So, it's possible the plan lasts ... 3 drives.  

 

But I think it is the plan.  

[NewCliche21]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The other reporting was from Sheehan, who said he has heard from people inside the building they think they have a 12-13 win offense.  That's not a ground-n-pound offense and win by 3.  That's an explosive, score lots of points offense.  And whatever issues I have with Sheehan, I don't believe he would just make that up.  

 

This would excite me, I just need to see what those people said in previous offseasons.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

I completely disagree about what the offense was built for. Feel like it’ll be grind it out keep games close and limit Carson from making the big mistakes by lots of runs and play action. 

 

I don't think this is going to be a run heavy offense due to the personnel.  We aren't built for that any more.  We let Scherff walk and got older and cheaper and less athletic on the interior of the line and we've basically got a room of complimentary backs who are mid rounders and bargain vets.  Our playmakers are pretty much all at WR now, and the first round and big contract investments at that position group tip our philosophy.  And to use a basketball metaphor, Wentz is a high usage playmaker type of player who is going to be going off script and throwing down field a lot.  That's in his football identity and I don't think he can help himself or really change at this point in his career.  I don't think we're even going to try to keep him on the chain, and it wouldn't work if anyway if we did.  We're going to live and die with him.

 

I understand if you're bearish on Wentz and/or the offensive coaching staff.  Neither of them have been good the past few years.  But I think there are reasons to be optimistic that they'll do better this year and that Wentz will be a good fit here.  By some accounts he seems to be a lot more comfortable here than he was in his previous two locker rooms, and that he's feeling wanted and motivated.  The dude is really talented and our receiver group is really good now.  I think he can be successful here, and having a playmaking QB can take a lot of pressure off an offensive coaching staff that is mediocre.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

This would excite me, I just need to see what those people said in previous offseasons.

No idea, but I haven't heard anything similar from Sheehan in previous years.  I'm not sure who these people would be, I don't know what sources he has.  It's hard to believe he has any given how hard he ****'s on the team every single segment of every single show.  But I also don't think he would report it if the source was the assistant A/V intern.  

[skinny21]

To the points made so far, I’d add that the team cut (or waived?) their 1 fullback, waived Reyes (better blocker than the 2 young TEs), and kept Dyami Brown (Harmon would have been the much better choice for the run game).  And more broadly, there is a lot of team speed amongst the pass catchers.

[Voice_of_Reason]

23 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

To the points made so far, I’d add that the team cut (or waived?) their 1 fullback, waived Reyes (better blocker than the 2 young TEs), and kept Dyami Brown (Harmon would have been the much better choice for the run game).  And more broadly, there is a lot of team speed amongst the pass catchers.

The only point I would make is neither Harmon nor Diyami was going to have an effect on the run game, or the pass game, because they were going to be inactive unless there were injuries.

 

Also, Reyes was hurt, wasn't he?  I think they IRed and then released him.  I seem to feel like he was just always hurt.  

 

(I say this acknowledging you are trying to help me make my case and I'm shooting holes at it, kindof, so I apologize to both you and me.) 

[NewCliche21]

48 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No idea, but I haven't heard anything similar from Sheehan in previous years.  I'm not sure who these people would be, I don't know what sources he has.  It's hard to believe he has any given how hard he ****'s on the team every single segment of every single show.  But I also don't think he would report it if the source was the assistant A/V intern.  

 

That's what I meant, sorry, I don't know what Sheehan's sources (basically as a singular unit just like our team is a unit comprised of a lot of people) said in years past. I'm with you.

[Jericho]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I disagree that this is a safe, middle of the road team.  I think it's boom or bust and that's really due to the nature of Wentz as a player.  He's either a super explosive playmaker or he kills you by either getting hurt or making back-breaking mistakes.  The offense is squarely built around an attempt to have an explosive passing game as all of our money and resources are concentrated on Wentz, the OTs, and the three good WRs.  And on defense we essentially put all of our eggs into the basket of the DL.

 

This team was built with a philosophy to score via an explosive passing offense and then let the pass rush carry the defense.  We'll see if it works.  Wentz might not be good enough any more.  The WRs might not be good enough to generate enough explosive plays.  The DL might not be good enough to consistently get home and wreck drives.  And if this build isn't good enough, then it'll eventually be time to move on from this FO and start over.  But I'd say they definitely took a shot on creating a team with a high ceiling.

 

I'm not sure there's much boom here. Bust? Sure, it's easy to bust in the NFL. But Boom? There seems to be little boom to this team. The idea that Wentz is or can become some super explosive playmaker just seems like some wild fantasy. He's now entering year seven of his NFL career and has never really shown it before. I think we know who he is. Sure, anything could happen in the most literal sense. But it's not a realistic outcome in the slightest. We might be confusing basic competence with "boom" and "playmaker".