The Official ES (or E...C) 2022 Free Agency Thread Signed G Andrew Norwell, Obada, Trai Turner...Goodbye Scherff, Kyle Allen, Tim Settle

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

@Voice_of_Reason I hear you in badly wanting to give Ron a clean slate separate from previous administrations.

 

Its...wisdom is very much about recognizing patterns, so we if we recognize stuff we have seen before we should not act like we didn't. 

So here's what I say:  IF you believe Ron and company are actually making the decisions, then the pattern cannot exist prior to 2020. Because the pattern starts with the decision makers.

 

IF you believe Ron and company are NOT making the decisions, and it's Dan, then you can extend backwards further. (I also just can't believe Dan would give 2 craps about who the returner or LG or backup tackle is.  He cares about the QB and maybe some other stars. He wouldn't interfere in this type of thing because he wouldn't care.)

 

Personally, I have not heard one word that Dan is interfering in any way with what Ron wants to do from a talent acquisition perspective.  Not one report from anywhere.  

 

And they completely cleaned house, there are no more people in the organization who would have been responsible for previous patterns.  

 

So, my take is, there is no pattern for talent acquisition that goes back further than 2020.  

 

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

Yes, different administration, but some of the same decisions we've seen in the past have lead to similar results.  This new administration doesn't not exist in a vacuum.

I'm also not entirely sure this is true either. I get that the new administration doesn't exist in a vacuum.  But at the same time, it does have agency and is able to make it's own decisions.

 

Personally, I find not immediately going out and signing Carter to whatever he wants a good sign.  Let him test the market.  If somebody is going to pay him $8M/year or something to be a #2 or #3 WR and kick returner, you say "thank you" shake hands and part as friends.  He had a good season and wants to capitalize on that.  

 

But for this team, he's a kick/punt returner and emergency WR if everybody gets hurt.  

 

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Certainly the best HC/FO combo we've had in a long time, but that's a really low bar and we're going into year three with a single winning record yet, let alone playoff win.  

Yeah, but who expected differently?  The team was 3-13 in 2019, had just come off of a 6 year stretch of rather putrid coaching (especially on the defensive side of the ball), a 10 year stretch of Bruce Allen as President/GM, had just drafted a complete bum at 15, and was in complete disarray.  The Trent Williams situation was still unresolved, etc.  

 

Unlike when McVay went to the Rams, there were not a lot of good pieces here to work with, especially on offense.  

 

And in their first year, I'd say they over-achieved, even with their weak schedule, to get to 7 wins.  

 

Last year was a step-back year, but the context of that is their starting QB played 16, I'll repeat 16 snaps.  And then they played the entire year with a middle-of-the-road backup QB who significantly limited them.  People forget TH was the backup because he played the entire season.  But he was the backup.

 

So, I think you have to pass judgement with context.  I firmly believe the team would have been better with Fitz.  How much better?  I can't say. I don't have a crystal ball.  But certainly better.  I do think they would have won at least 1 more game than they did.  Maybe 2. If they won 2 more games, they are 9-8 and have a winning season.  

 

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

So yea, I can see giving them benefit of the doubt more so then I have and others have encouraged me to try, but they still have work to do and results that need to be produced for me to get where some of yall are right now.  I'm still not there yet. I want to, but I'm not.

To me, the QB situation clouds absolutely everything they have been trying to do.  

 

In 2020, they got stuck with Haskins, probably in large part due to COVID eliminating the off-season, so Ron didn't have the time to figure out he was a no-nothing ass clown before training camp.  Then Allen got hurt, then Smith played until he got hurt. Then Haskins again, then Alex played the season finale almost while in a wheelchair, and TH played well in the playoff game.

 

In 2021, they had a plan for Fitz, and he lasted 16 plays, and TH got, as Mayhew put it, "a field promotion."  And he tried his best.  And had a few moments.  But otherwise was pretty bad and limited the offense significantly.

 

I hold Ron and JDR completely accountable for the defensive regression of the beginning of last year.  They screwed it up by not keeping Landon on the bench, and a few other things.  That's on them.  

 

But overall, they've done a good job, and a lot of it has been wrecked by bad luck at the QB position.  

 

It's in that context which I grade them.  

11 minutes ago, Gallen5862 said:

Kelvin Harmon is still a WR on our Roster I believe. Hopefully he is recovered from his injury and able to compete for a Roster spot.

I thought he was released at the end of last year or early in the off-season.  Did they sign him back?

[Gallen5862]

Voice of Reason I believe Kelvin Harmon was signed to a Futures contract after the Season.

[skinny21]

34 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’d prefer we get guys who will be NFL productive versus barely hang on to the NFL roster.

Well, to be fair to him, he was coming back from the ACL (and wasn’t the fastest to begin with).  But yeah, I agree.

 

I’m putting very little hope into him becoming anything more than he’s been, but I have to admit, I do have a soft spot for him.  He’s got some things going for him - serious work ethic, soft mitts, big catch radius, but he needs to offer more (a lot more, really) to earn a spot/snaps.  

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

What kind of APY contract do you think he’s worth

Terry is worth what ever the market allows and sadly it will be north of $20 million.  Based on his production here; it’s not first round production.

 

Now that isn’t fault since he has had no qb. If he lives up to his potential under Wentz ; easily over $20-$25/ million a year. I don’t see a team trading a #1 until he demonstrates that top wr production.

[88Comrade2000]

Ron is only here because he found a sucker in Dan. No other team would’ve given Ron the control he got here.

 

 

Thing is; there aren’t too many coaches who could do that.

 

Seattle’s decline happened when Carroll had more say in personnel. Bill Bellichek the coach has saved Bellichek the GM. The Pats really haven’t drafted well the last few years.

 

 

I think only Parcells and Johnson have been good at controlling everything.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

10 hours ago, KDawg said:

Again, he has to want to be signed. And they can’t pay him $100M guaranteed. If they trade him it’s because he has said he doesn’t want to come back or he’s priced himself out.

 

I’d rather move him than get nothing.

 

10 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Ideally you want him here, but WRs gotta eat and when given the choice, the good ones almost always tie themselves to good QBs in stable conditions. That's how they ensure wealth on future contracts.

 

We currently can't promise that. Its not crazy to think he wants to help ensure future monies by trying his hip to a reliable set of wings.

 

If that is his desire, I don't want a 3rd round comp pick when he leaves in FA. I want a trade package.

We agree that it takes two to tango. We agree if you’re gonna lose him you’d rather get something. Of course! My overall point is good teams seem to never let this even be questioned or doubted. Maybe that’s exactly what they are doing behind the scenes. You can’t sell leadership culture and team by letting Terry walk or trading him. Hope this topic gets put to bed like ASAP.

Edited April 7, 2022 by COWBOY-KILLA-

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Ron is only here because he found a sucker in Dan. No other team would’ve given Ron the control he got here.

Nobody else viable would come here without the control he got - not sure why you keep making this distinction.

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Nobody else viable would come here without the control he got - not sure why you keep making this distinction.

Disagree with both you and @88Comrade2000.  I think Joe Gibbs had a lot of say in RR coming here to DC.  

 

In 2011, Rivera became the head coach for the Carolina Panthers. He was recognized as the NFL Coach of the Year in 2013 and 2015 and led the team to an appearance in Super Bowl 50.  He is the only coach in NFL history to have led two teams with a losing record to the playoffs, doing so with Carolina in 2014 and Washington in 2020.

 

We could have done a lot worse.  It's make or break for RR and Co. either this year or next.  

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, RWJ said:

Disagree with both you and @88Comrade2000.  I think Joe Gibbs had a lot of say in RR coming here to DC.  

 

In 2011, Rivera became the head coach for the Carolina Panthers. He was recognized as the NFL Coach of the Year in 2013 and 2015 and led the team to an appearance in Super Bowl 50.  He is the only coach in NFL history to have led two teams with a losing record to the playoffs, doing so with Carolina in 2014 and Washington in 2020.

 

We could have done a lot worse.  It's make or break for RR and Co. either this year or next.  

 

 

 

I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with me on.  I also believe we could have done a lot worse.  My point was no viable coach would come here without the power that Ron got.

[RWJ]

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with me on.  I also believe we could have done a lot worse.  My point was no viable coach would come here without the power that Ron got.

Sounds like to me you weren't thrilled. So, you're neutral then?  That's cool. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Sounds like to me you weren't thrilled. So, you're neutral then?  That's cool. 

No, I thought it was pretty much the best we could do.

[Warhead36]

I'd rather have Rivera with control and a respectable FO with him than the clown show of Jay Gruden and Bruce Allen.

[illone]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

...Jay Gruden and Bruce Allen.

 

 

Who?

 

[sebestian]

With all respect to Deandre Carter, umm, those type of players are replaceable.  I am advocating for him to take care of his family this one unique time we would all do if we were given a chance to.  I know these numbers get thrown around, millions here and millions there.  If he go 3/15M that is being set, if you are smart.  Mercy, good for him.  

[MartinC]

FWIW

 

[Jericho]

12 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Curtis Samuel is the #2. He has been very healthy in his career up to last season, if he is healthy next season he will add a real weapon to the offense - he is very good. He is also being paid as the #2 ($12M cap hit). These are #2 numbers and he was ascending - up until he signed for us ... (he had 200 yards rushing for the Panthers in 2020 as well). We do need to add another weapon though, someone who can play outside might allow us to use Samuel inside more and as the motion guy. If Samuel became the #3 we would be in really really good shape at WR.

 

GP	REC	TGTS	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	FD	FUM	LST
9	15	26	115	7.7	0	23	6	0	0
13	39	65	494	12.7	5	53	24	0	0
16	54	105	627	11.6	6	44	36	0	0
15	77	97	851	11.1	3	44	39	1	0
5	6	9	27	4.5	0	10	4	0	0
58	191	302	2,114	11.1	14	53	109	1	0

 

 

The problem is that Samuel has played 5 years in the league and he's never been a #2 on his team at any point in that time frame. I mean literally, he's never been in the top two on his own team in receiving. To suddenly expect him to be a #2 is some combination of delusion and/or homerism and/or extreme optimism. If he ends up the #2 on Washington this coming year, it's because the team could not find better options. On the plus side, I do think there's a decent chance the team adds a WR early in the draft

[MrJL]

10 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

The problem is that Samuel has played 5 years in the league and he's never been a #2 on his team at any point in that time frame. I mean literally, he's never been in the top two on his own team in receiving. To suddenly expect him to be a #2 is some combination of delusion and/or homerism and/or extreme optimism. If he ends up the #2 on Washington this coming year, it's because the team could not find better options. On the plus side, I do think there's a decent chance the team adds a WR early in the draft

 

no, it's not it's a product of believing people improve over time, and believing he was under utilzied in Carolina

[Renegade7]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So here's what I say:  IF you believe Ron and company are actually making the decisions, then the pattern cannot exist prior to 2020. Because the pattern starts with the decision makers.

 

IF you believe Ron and company are NOT making the decisions, and it's Dan, then you can extend backwards further. (I also just can't believe Dan would give 2 craps about who the returner or LG or backup tackle is.  He cares about the QB and maybe some other stars. He wouldn't interfere in this type of thing because he wouldn't care.)

 

Personally, I have not heard one word that Dan is interfering in any way with what Ron wants to do from a talent acquisition perspective.  Not one report from anywhere.  

 

And they completely cleaned house, there are no more people in the organization who would have been responsible for previous patterns.  

 

So, my take is, there is no pattern for talent acquisition that goes back further than 2020.  

 

This is a false ultimatum, bro.

 

Snyder was never the GM over the team, at best he weaved between final say or outright forcing a decision for drafting a QB or a specific high priced FA.  But he wasn't running the day to day GM responsibilities.

 

Which means whoevwr did do the majority the GM work either didn't know what they were doing or jus weren't good at it.

 

Snyder only owns one NFL franchise, yet we see similar bonehead decisons over the years in different franchises.  This is the patterns Im talking about, this isnt a whioe new world because Ron is supposed to have the final say now.  He makes mistakes, too, and never won a championship in Carolina, it was a risk giving him that much power even if he was the best option to give it to at the time.

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm also not entirely sure this is true either. I get that the new administration doesn't exist in a vacuum.  But at the same time, it does have agency and is able to make it's own decisions.

 

Personally, I find not immediately going out and signing Carter to whatever he wants a good sign.  Let him test the market.  If somebody is going to pay him $8M/year or something to be a #2 or #3 WR and kick returner, you say "thank you" shake hands and part as friends.  He had a good season and wants to capitalize on that.  

 

But for this team, he's a kick/punt returner and emergency WR if everybody gets hurt.  

 

Again, what did he ask for and what did we offer?  Throwing out a # like $8 million a year is disingenuous at best, it doesn't help your point at all.  He signed a 1 year, $1 million contract with us, for perspective, and for better or worse was our 4th leading receiver. 

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, but who expected differently?  The team was 3-13 in 2019, had just come off of a 6 year stretch of rather putrid coaching (especially on the defensive side of the ball), a 10 year stretch of Bruce Allen as President/GM, had just drafted a complete bum at 15, and was in complete disarray.  The Trent Williams situation was still unresolved, etc.  

 

Unlike when McVay went to the Rams, there were not a lot of good pieces here to work with, especially on offense.  

 

And in their first year, I'd say they over-achieved, even with their weak schedule, to get to 7 wins.  

 

Last year was a step-back year, but the context of that is their starting QB played 16, I'll repeat 16 snaps.  And then they played the entire year with a middle-of-the-road backup QB who significantly limited them.  People forget TH was the backup because he played the entire season.  But he was the backup.

 

I didn't, I doubt most people forgot this.

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So, I think you have to pass judgement with context.  I firmly believe the team would have been better with Fitz.  How much better?  I can't say. I don't have a crystal ball.  But certainly better.  I do think they would have won at least 1 more game than they did.  Maybe 2. If they won 2 more games, they are 9-8 and have a winning season.  

 

To me, the QB situation clouds absolutely everything they have been trying to do.  

 

In 2020, they got stuck with Haskins, probably in large part due to COVID eliminating the off-season, so Ron didn't have the time to figure out he was a no-nothing ass clown before training camp.  Then Allen got hurt, then Smith played until he got hurt. Then Haskins again, then Alex played the season finale almost while in a wheelchair, and TH played well in the playoff game.

 

In 2021, they had a plan for Fitz, and he lasted 16 plays, and TH got, as Mayhew put it, "a field promotion."  And he tried his best.  And had a few moments.  But otherwise was pretty bad and limited the offense significantly.

 

I hold Ron and JDR completely accountable for the defensive regression of the beginning of last year.  They screwed it up by not keeping Landon on the bench, and a few other things.  That's on them.  

 

But overall, they've done a good job, and a lot of it has been wrecked by bad luck at the QB position.  

 

It's in that context which I grade them.  

I thought he was released at the end of last year or early in the off-season.  Did they sign him back?

 

How often is a rebuild done where there's never a first round pick at QB for the incoming coach?  From what I remember, it was more about giving Haskins a chance when Ron came in versus not having time to figure out what to do.  That's his job to figure out what to do, btw, he was hired in early Janurary, the draft was in late April.

 

I have even more respect for Gibbs II because the first thing he did was took one look at Ramsey and said he needed an upgrade and did it.  He didn't try to salvage his career, and was right, Ramsey was a bust.  

 

That coach in Arizona, the first thing he did was try to replace Rosen with Murray.  People corked eyebrows, but who's laughing now? Where is Rosen anyway?

 

If Ron had started his "rebuild" with focusing on getting a franchise QB, that QB would be in his third year right now.  It's not hindsight to say that, he's not the first coach to wing it at QB here or other franchises, and the results are pretty consistent.

 

But it's done now, Wentz is here, Carter is likely gone, you are trying too hard to convince yourself that this whole thing is brand new, but it's not.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Renegade7

[MartinC]

35 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

The problem is that Samuel has played 5 years in the league and he's never been a #2 on his team at any point in that time frame. I mean literally, he's never been in the top two on his own team in receiving. To suddenly expect him to be a #2 is some combination of delusion and/or homerism and/or extreme optimism. If he ends up the #2 on Washington this coming year, it's because the team could not find better options. On the plus side, I do think there's a decent chance the team adds a WR early in the draft

If our #2 can put up 70odd catches for 800+ yards receiving that will be solid production from that spot. Last year we had Terry over 1,000 yards and no one else even cracked 400.

 

I also though expect us to take a WR in the first or second round.

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No, I thought it was pretty much the best we could do.

 

I agree with this.

 

  It doesn't mean it was a great idea to give him that much power, but considering our options at the time, giving him too much power to get him was the best one.

 

Is what it is.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

12 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

If Washington trades Terry I’m officially rooting for another team. F That. You don’t trade Terry. 
All bets are off. Sign the man up ASAP. 
All this talk is totally blasphemous imo. 

 

Kirk Cousins, Trent Williams, & Brendan Scherrf all walked and we got nothing back. That trend has to stop NOW. I cant sit through that **** again. If we are unable to keep McClaurin and we let him walk without getting anything back, that may be the straw that breaks the camels back. I'm turning in my fan card. 

 

If we get anywhere near Franchise Tag territory, TRADE HIS ASS........

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by LetMeSeeYourWarFace21

[Jericho]

8 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

no, it's not it's a product of believing people improve over time, and believing he was under utilzied in Carolina

 

The rare 6th year WR break-out? Like I said, its a combination of delusion and/or homerism and/or extreme optimism. It's not realistic. I'm sure Josh Doctson is going to breakout any day now  Samuel is a fine enough player. He has his uses. But you want him to fill a role he's never been able to fill in five years. The average career length of a WR is about 2.8 years. Samuel's basically doubled that has still hasn't done what you want once. The other humorous part is you claim he was underutilized in Carolina. Maybe so, but you know what? His coach in Carolina was Ron Rivera. And now his coach is Ron Rivera. The only time his coach was not Ron Rivera, Samuel posted career numbers (2020). He did so as a #3 WR in that offense. That's his best role. If the team got a legit #2, Samuel can move to the slot and try and replicate his 2020 season. That's an optimistic outcome.

[method man]

28 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

The rare 6th year WR break-out? Like I said, its a combination of delusion and/or homerism and/or extreme optimism. It's not realistic. I'm sure Josh Doctson is going to breakout any day now  Samuel is a fine enough player. He has his uses. But you want him to fill a role he's never been able to fill in five years. The average career length of a WR is about 2.8 years. Samuel's basically doubled that has still hasn't done what you want once. The other humorous part is you claim he was underutilized in Carolina. Maybe so, but you know what? His coach in Carolina was Ron Rivera. And now his coach is Ron Rivera. The only time his coach was not Ron Rivera, Samuel posted career numbers (2020). He did so as a #3 WR in that offense. That's his best role. If the team got a legit #2, Samuel can move to the slot and try and replicate his 2020 season. That's an optimistic outcome.

 

It's one of the reasons I didn't like paying Samuel premium money. Good slot receivers are not hard to find these days. If you look at round 2 and 3 in this draft, it is loaded with slot receivers. Same thing last year with the Moores for example

[Koolblue13]

How many WR2s had 77-851? 

 

Thats solid WR2 production. 

[woodpecker]

23 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

How many WR2s had 77-851? 

 

Thats solid WR2 production. 

Add in the 200 yards rushing and he was basically a 1000 yard receiver. Agree he’s at least a potential viable #2 if healthy. Surprised some think there is no chance of that. I’d like to see more before writing him off.