The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[mh86]

2 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Troy Aikman talked about this last night a bit during the Monday night game as Pickett was having a pretty nice night.  He was basically saying that the more reps a QB gets, the more the game slows down and qbs that dont have as much playing time just take off much quicker because there not sure about what they are seeing and every thing is a blur.  Aikman even brought up that fans seem to want qbs to keep running because it was effective however, its good for the development of the qb for the game to slow down.   

He’s not completely wrong, but at the end of the day the QB has to take what’s given to them. if he’s not throwing to open players or picking up 5-10 on the ground, then he’s leaving a lot on the field. Things like Field goal opportunities, drive extensions, and additional points.

[NeverSurrender]

Just now, mh86 said:

He’s not completely wrong, but at the end of the day the QB has to take what’s given to them. if he’s not throwing to open players or picking up 5-10 on the ground, then he’s leaving a lot on the field. Things like Field goal opportunities, drive extensions, and additional points.

100% agree, I think thats part of the learning process as well.  We might see TH recognize that he needs to run a bit sooner.  But if he is actually hurt then im not sure its a good idea. 

[mh86]

3 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

100% agree, I think thats part of the learning process as well.  We might see TH recognize that he needs to run a bit sooner.  But if he is actually hurt then im not sure its a good idea. 

Fair, but we’ve seen him not run prior to any news of him being injured. I’m just going off what I’ve seen from him this year and last. He has the wheels, but I think he’s been far more hesitant to use them. Some of that may come from the game plan as well. If I were forced to hand off the ball 40 times a game and only get to throw 20 or so times I’d probably look to actually throw too. 

[Conn]

9 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Troy Aikman talked about this last night a bit during the Monday night game as Pickett was having a pretty nice night.  He was basically saying that the more reps a QB gets, the more the game slows down and qbs that dont have as much playing time just take off much quicker because there not sure about what they are seeing and every thing is a blur.  Aikman even brought up that fans seem to want qbs to keep running because it was effective however, its good for the development of the qb for the game to slow down.   

That’s great but every game Heinicke is playing is do or die, basically. He has no future except as a backup, he’s not going to get the chance to develop much (even though as KDawg has rightfully pointed out he is improving). He needs to use his legs and bank as many yards and W’s as he can while he can, he’s living a fairy tale right now as a 30 year old who can’t even rightly be called a journeyman. I understand not throwing his body around like the Tampa Bay playoff game—you can’t do that every week (but we better see that if we do make the wildcard round). But he can take off and take the easy 1st downs more than he is currently choosing to. It’s not going to hamper his development, he’s not a 22-year old rookie who needs to learn to read the field. He’s only continuing to play bc we’re winning, and he needs to do everything he can to prolong that or he’s toast. 

[dunfer]

TH will progress if he takes a year off so he can do the cycles barry bonds and chris hemsworth do and then come back after he can piss clean again

[Die Hard]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

That’s great but every game Heinicke is playing is do or die, basically. He has no future except as a backup, he’s not going to get the chance to develop much (even though as KDawg has rightfully pointed out he is improving). He needs to use his legs and bank as many yards and W’s as he can while he can, he’s living a fairy tale right now as a 30 year old who can’t even rightly be called a journeyman. I understand not throwing his body around like the Tampa Bay playoff game—you can’t do that every week (but we better see that if we do make the wildcard round). But he can take off and take the easy 1st downs more than he is currently choosing to. It’s not going to hamper his development, he’s not a 22-year old rookie who needs to learn to read the field. He’s only continuing to play bc we’re winning, and he needs to do everything he can to prolong that or he’s toast. 

It was an element of Kirk Cousin’s game that was/is very effective…. and isn’t used nearly enough. 
 

That’s not to say it should be a focus… but 4-5 runs a game when the pocket collapsed and keeping the defence honest is a great weapon to any offence. He’s not going to run for big gains or touchdowns… but running for first downs takes the sails out of defences.

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Conn said:

That’s great but every game Heinicke is playing is do or die, basically. He has no future except as a backup, he’s not going to get the chance to develop much (even though as KDawg has rightfully pointed out he is improving). He needs to use his legs and bank as many yards and W’s as he can while he can, he’s living a fairy tale right now as a 30 year old who can’t even rightly be called a journeyman. I understand not throwing his body around like the Tampa Bay playoff game—you can’t do that every week (but we better see that if we do make the wildcard round). But he can take off and take the easy 1st downs more than he is currently choosing to. It’s not going to hamper his development, he’s not a 22-year old rookie who needs to learn to read the field. He’s only continuing to play bc we’re winning, and he needs to do everything he can to prolong that or he’s toast. 

Right. He is improving and reps make quarterbacks improve. But they still have ceilings. Heinicke’s absolute top of the mountain ceiling is around a top 16-20 QB because of his arm limitations. The gunslinger mentality actually helps him more than it hurts him but that is shaky ground for him to be standing on. 
 

On a normal day he’s a bottom third starter which generally equates to NFL backup for tenured vets. 
 

But he would be greatly more valuable if he used his legs more often. It’s like he’s terrified of running. When you are an undersized QB with a limited arm you have to use your legs for sustained success. Lamar Jackson is a prototype sized QB with a big arm and he uses his legs. Hurts is similar. An undersized guy has to do it. 

[Wyvern]

 

I think I understand Heinicke's reluctance to take off running, when he thinks there's a target to pass to.

 

When you go to Wikipedia and check Heinicke's history in the NFL, you can see why he might not want to take unnecessary chances that might expose himself to injury. 

1. Taylor got waived by the Vikings with an injury settlement for an injury he sustained in preseason.
2. While with Houston he finally gets in a game, and sustains a concussion after one pass, and never gets back into another game for Houston who then waives him in the offseason. 
3. Heinicke gets picked up by Carolina and gets a few spot appearances, leading to his first start for the injured Cam Newton.  During that game he gets an injured elbow, gets replaced by Kyle Allen, IR'd for the rest of the season and released in the offseason. 
4. And you may recall he injured himself on his trademark pylon drive in the Washington-Tampa playoff game but for once stuck it out and made the team the next year.

 

So, in the 2021 season, after stepping in for injured Fitzpatrick, and with Kyle Allen behind him -- I'll bet Heinicke made sure history wasn't going to repeat itself and tried to play it safe, and avoid injury.  Consequently,  Taylor has a real interest in scrambling to dodge would-be tacklers, but probably doesn't want to risk injury by becoming a "running QB weapon." And, for now, Turner appears to be obliging Taylor's preference in that matter .... especially while Wentz was injured.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Wyvern

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Same.

 

I’ve seen folks make mention that he’s making business decisions, ie: doesn’t want to risk injury.    That’s hard for me to discern but yeah of late particularly, he’s made some questionable decisions to throw.  That added element to the offense seems worth the risk.

I almost think it’s the wrong business decision though.  He would be a MUCH more appealing FA, even possibly a Trubisky level starter signing if he tacked 20 yards rushing per game on scrambles to his game, and used his legs to convert some 3rd downs.  
 

If that was part of the evaluation, other teams might be willing to overlook the fact he can’t drive the ball because he has multiple ways to contribute.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

39 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

It was an element of Kirk Cousin’s game that was/is very effective…. and isn’t used nearly enough. 
 

That’s not to say it should be a focus… but 4-5 runs a game when the pocket collapsed and keeping the defence honest is a great weapon to any offence. He’s not going to run for big gains or touchdowns… but running for first downs takes the sails out of defences.

Kirk not doing that is probably the primary reason folks don’t take him seriously as a top QB.  I believe taking off and running is generally an innate skill that he simply doesn’t have.  What he will do is stand in there, take a soul crushing hit and fire a dart, or take the sack.  
 

If he could ever evolve that part of his game, he’d easily be a top 10 QB but I just don’t think it’s in him.  He showed some signs in 16/17 here but it never took off, pun intended.

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I almost think it’s the wrong business decision though.  He would be a MUCH more appealing FA, even possibly a Trubisky level starter signing if he tacked 20 yards rushing per game on scrambles to his game, and used his legs to convert some 3rd downs.  
 

If that was part of the evaluation, other teams might be willing to overlook the fact he can’t drive the ball because he has multiple ways to contribute.

Agreed, I’ve never understood the reluctance to do it.  He’s not slow, slides well and needs something extra to his game to make up for his arm, or lack thereof.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Listen to this:

 

 

Sorry, I’m not going to bother because I basically have a deep seated belief all the draftniks are guessing and know nothing. It’s good theater, at times, though Thor Nystrom is so much of an ass he’s both wrong and bad theater.

 

The only thing that matters is what the NFL thinks.  The NFL thought Howell was a 5th round prospect because each team passed on him at least 4 times (absent teams who didn’t have 4 draft picks before he was selected, like the Rams.)

 

Thats the NFL grade, and while the league gets it wrong occasionally, you can tell what it’s thinking.

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Agreed, I’ve never understood the reluctance to do it.  He’s not slow, slides well and needs something extra to his game to make up for his arm, or lack thereof.

If he used his legs more I wouldn’t be screaming he sucks toes as much, because he’s probably make up for the lack of air production with some ground production.  (Said with due respect to people who like to suck toes.) 

[mh86]

46 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

  (Said with due respect to people who like to suck toes.) 

I couldn’t help myself. I agree with everything you said as well.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by mh86

[Renegade7]

Ain't gonna front, I want this shirt...

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Right. He is improving and reps make quarterbacks improve. But they still have ceilings. Heinicke’s absolute top of the mountain ceiling is around a top 16-20 QB because of his arm limitations. The gunslinger mentality actually helps him more than it hurts him but that is shaky ground for him to be standing on. 
 

On a normal day he’s a bottom third starter which generally equates to NFL backup for tenured vets. 
 

But he would be greatly more valuable if he used his legs more often. It’s like he’s terrified of running. When you are an undersized QB with a limited arm you have to use your legs for sustained success. Lamar Jackson is a prototype sized QB with a big arm and he uses his legs. Hurts is similar. An undersized guy has to do it. 

I agree with most of this. I actually think that the deep shots into sometimes triple coverage and trying to do impossible throws like the pic on Sunday are to keep linebackers from always playing run and short passes. It helps that he can occasionally connect but I remember last year after the 4 game winning streak people were saying that Dallas showed how to beat him and he should never play again. I didn't know if that was true or not because he didn't look good after that. But this year, I'm seeing a different (slightly improved) QB. He still makes the WTF throws that depend on WRs fighting for the ball or CBs dropping it, but it makes them stay more honest. 

 

I remember having other deep passers who had the arm strength but not the deep accuracy or wouldn't their jump balls. They wanted their guy completely open. I like that Heinicke tries more. Maybe he's a lucky Grossman but maybe we can ride the hot hand all the way to the SB like Chicago did. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I agree with most of this. I actually think that the deep shots into sometimes triple coverage and trying to do impossible throws like the pic on Sunday are to keep linebackers from always playing run and short passes. It helps that he can occasionally connect but I remember last year after the 4 game winning streak people were saying that Dallas showed how to beat him and he should never play again. I didn't know if that was true or not because he didn't look good after that. But this year, I'm seeing a different (slightly improved) QB. He still makes the WTF throws that depend on WRs fighting for the ball or CBs dropping it, but it makes them stay more honest. 

 

I remember having other deep passers who had the arm strength but not the deep accuracy or wouldn't their jump balls. They wanted their guy completely open. I like that Heinicke tries more. Maybe he's a lucky Grossman but maybe we can ride the hot hand all the way to the SB like Chicago did. 

This entire post:

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Throwing a duck into triple coverage to keep linebackers honest is certainly a new offensive wrinkle.

[Thinking Skins]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2022/11/6/23440284/2022-ny-giants-quarterback-daniel-jones-evaluation-film-study-2023-nfl-draft

 

That's an article analysing Jones and praising his RPO but criticizing his unwillingness to throw the ball deep. 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This entire post:

 

To paraphrase the late great DMX

 

I merely say what's in my heart and you call it a straw

Don't put it in a cage, don't mistreat it

You say you hunger for knowledge? Here it is, eat it!

[Skinsinparadise]

Oh, no Robinson now is the dude who brings out the best in the team? 😀

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2022/11/6/23440284/2022-ny-giants-quarterback-daniel-jones-evaluation-film-study-2023-nfl-draft

 

That's an article analysing Jones and praising his RPO but criticizing his unwillingness to throw the ball deep. 

To paraphrase the late great DMX

 

I merely say what's in my heart and you call it a straw

Don't put it in a cage, don't mistreat it

You say you hunger for knowledge? Here it is, eat it!

 

While I am not a Jones guy to say the least, it makes me jealous to have a QB witrh real wheels which clearly isn't Heinicke or Wentz based on this season, they are pocket QBs.  But it gives me some hope for Howell who can run.

 

https://www.bigblueview.com/2022/11/6/23440284/2022-ny-giants-quarterback-daniel-jones-evaluation-film-study-2023-nfl-draft

For the most part, Jones has done a good job with his decision making on RPO and read-option plays. He’s shown solid judgement in distributing the football when reading a single defender on those plays. He has usually made a decision that’s resulted in a positive gain for the offense. Jones has also shown impressive ball handling on read-option, RPO, and play-action mesh points. At times he has even fooled the NFL’s own sideline and end zone camera operators.

The effect of Jones running is also seen in the rest of the Giants’ offense. They frequently use mesh points to introduce indecision and slow down defenses. The Giants also make very heavy use of play-action, leaning into their use of mesh points in RPOs and read-option plays. They are currently third in play-action passes, with 64 passes off of play-action through eight games. On tape, the play-action is usually paired with a bootleg rollout. That play pairing was particularly devastating for the Chicago Bears, but it’s proven to be pretty consistently effective at creating simple, open reads for Jones, stressing the defense while also moving him away from opposing pass rushes.

The Giants are second in the NFL in scrambles, with Jones pulling the ball down and running 30 times in the first eight games. 

[CapsSkins]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

While I am not a Jones guy to say the least, it makes me jealous to have a QB witrh real wheels which clearly isn't Heinicke or Wentz based on this season, they are pocket QBs.  But it gives me some hope for Howell who can run.

 

Look if Tom Brady wants to come here next season for one last go at a SB, sign me up. But apart from a situation like that, I consider it damn near mandatory for our long-term starter to be a mobile QB. Not necessarily a Lamar-caliber runner, but a guy who can break off chunk yardage runs and keep defenses honest. Especially when we have a two-headed monster rushing attack, to be able to add the QB to the mix and merit a defender staying home to spy on him? It would do wonders for the offense. 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Look if Tom Brady wants to come here next season for one last go at a SB, sign me up. But apart from a situation like that, I consider it damn near mandatory for our long-term starter to be a mobile QB. Not necessarily a Lamar-caliber runner, but a guy who can break off chunk yardage runs and keep defenses honest. Especially when we have a two-headed monster rushing attack, to be able to add the QB to the mix and merit a defender staying home to spy on him? It would do wonders for the offense. 

 

Yeah especially if we are not shooting for the fences at QB.  the Giants are winning with a below par defense but great running game that Daniel Jones aides.  We saw Mariota isn't a hot passer but his mobility adds to the Falcons attack.  Heinicke doesn't run.   Next season I much prefer a QB who adds that element.  If we are going to major in running the ball, adding a dude who actually is a threat to run with RPOS-RO makes it harder to stop.

[SkinsFTW]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If we are going to major in running the ball, adding a dude who actually is a threat to run with RPOS-RO makes it harder to stop.

 

I heard that RG3 is itching for a comeback...

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I heard that RG3 is itching for a comeback...

 

[Thinking Skins]

Just wanted to post this here for reference in terms of Heinicke's speed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

Yeah it looks like he's not getting rpo or read option. He's just dropping back, seeing nothing and running then something opens up so he takes it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Just wanted to post this here for reference in terms of Heinicke's speed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one is saying he's slow.  What we are saying is he doesn't run.  So what does it matter how fast he is aside from escaping pressure which we indeed plug him for?  He's not a QB who adds a run dimension.    

 

Carr runs in the 4.6's yet someone here tells me he's pure pocket passer as a criticism.  He's right about that part of the argument, Carr is a pocket passer, not a runner.   But Carr does have wheels and can escape pressure if he chooses like Taylor.  But i'd consider Carr a pocket passer in spite of his speed because he barely ever runs.  Heinicke same thing.    It's cool that Heinicke like Carr can run if he must.  So I don't consider either immobile at all but neither provides a running threat because its not a weapon they use much.

 

Heck 2017 season Kirk was much more likely to take off than Taylor.  Ditto in some of his Minnesota seasons.  Taylor seems to be planting himself as a dude who is a pocket passer who very rarely runs.  He is nimble in the pocket no doubt but presents absolutely no run threat for a defense to prepare for -- if there are three yards or so of daylight to scamper for a big first down, he will very unlikely run for it but instead buy time in the pocket and hope someone gets open.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise