The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I know you all kept on saying Taylor the 3rd backup but I just shook my head and said Taylor starting over Allen last year said otherwise. 

 

Then there were some who said Ron doesn't even think of or mentions Taylor anymore. 

 

Ron has now spoken and has kicked Allen out. This should stop people from saying Ron doesn't even think about Taylor. 

 

@mistertim You can now stop saying Ron doesn't think highly of Taylor now... 😂

 

I have no clue what Ron personally thinks of Taylor. From what I gather he seems to think Heinicke is a good dude and likes his competitiveness and work ethic. But Ron's actions, words, and the fact that they openly were looking for an upgrade at the position from the moment the season ended tells me that Ron also doesn't think Heinicke is a starting caliber NFL QB.

 

The entire point of the "they never mention Heinicke" thing is not that nobody ever uttered his name ever, but that when asked about the QB position in general, none of the coaches or FO guys brought up or mentioned Heinicke unprompted. When they were directly asked, sure they would say his name, but it was never in the context of him being considered as their potential starter in 2022.

 

I have no clue why you're so obsessed with this "OMG, see mistertim! In this interview Ron said Heinicke's name! You're so busted!" thing. The entire point is not what Ron thinks about Heinicke personally; that's completely irrelevant. The point is that it's incredibly clear that Ron doesn't think Heinicke is much of a NFL QB. 

 

You seriously seem to be addicted to arguing about points that nobody has actually made. Maybe "Strawman Abuse Disorder" will be in the DSM VI.

[Est.1974]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:02 PM, KDawg said:

 

Wentz stock is low. 

 

I actually prefer him over Bridgewater/Trubisky/Mariota as a bridge guy to a rookie.

 

I'd actually love a Wentz/Howell camp competition. And if Howell isn't ready that's fine. Wentz can at the very least get a team to a winning record and to the precipice of the playoffs while Howell/rookie learns.

 

On 1/13/2022 at 7:35 PM, Est.1974 said:

There would be far worse moves than Wentz if the contract/price/cost was reasonable and we also drafted a high end rookie to compete.

Very good chance this is how the cards will fall by draft weekend. First part done, rookie to follow.......

[justice98]

50 minutes ago, RWJ said:

 

 

 

 

I actually think Kyle Allen is the better between him and Heinicke.  At minimum, they're equal, but Allen's arm talent compared to Heinicke gives him the edge, IMO.

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, justice98 said:

 

I actually think Kyle Allen is the better between him and Heinicke.  At minimum, they're equal, but Allen's arm talent compared to Heinicke gives him the edge, IMO.

Not according to coach RR, Justice.   

[88Comrade2000]

23 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Okay so we get a rookie at 11 and have Wentz for a year so we can make the other players happy for a year. But what did it cost to do that though? Rolling with a rookie and Taylor would have looked really bad since Dan is trying to get people's butt in the seats after the name change. For me it is still a Dan pressuring Ron move so Dan can sell more jerseys. This attitude for the last 25+ years has gotten us where we are today. So I just simply think this was not a good trade at all. For once I just really wanted a change that looked like we were going to build for the future. That hope now is pretty much gone, at least for me right now. 

Carson isn’t getting people in the butts seats. We could go on playoff run this year and it won’t still get butts in the seats.

 

People will say; yeah another playoff season. Only to be followed by a losing season in 23.

 

This team, at minimum, has to 3 consecutive seasons with 11 wins at least and at least; one playoff win each season.

 

Only something like that will convince fans; things are different.

 

Don’t see Carson doing that; even if he’s here 3 years.

[wit33]

Here’s some data in an article the discussing the correlation of cap hit percentage to QBs winning the SB that some of you may find interesting:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/spots/super-bowl-qb-cap-percentages-1397/

 

Wentz comes in at a 13% cap hit this year. The median cap hit number of SB winning QBs for last 20 years is 8%. 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Carson isn’t getting people in the butts seats. We could go on playoff run this year and it won’t still get butts in the seats.

 

People will say; yeah another playoff season. Only to be followed by a losing season in 23.

 

This team, at minimum, has to 3 consecutive seasons with 11 wins at least and at least; one playoff win each season.

 

Only something like that will convince fans; things are different.

 

Don’t see Carson doing that; even if he’s here 3 years.

His style and approach has a chance to captivate the younger audience, but obviously that must be supported by winning as well

Edited March 10, 2022 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I'm not sure why the name Wentz did not come up much before this move.  . We should have anticipated this, we all knew Indy was moving on  This was always more realistic than Carr, who I do not believe will be traded, or Watson, Rodgers etc. and those were the names we've been talking about.  Personally I saw a 2nd for Jimmy G but this was also an obvious possibility that we missed.   Ron knew guys like Tribusky, Winston etc suck and are never going to be the answer. So he got a QB who at least showed he can be good at one time, something those last 2 guys have never shown.  

 

It came up, we all talked about it here and there.  Keim would throw his name in the mix every now and then including on the same day (he mentioned it that morning, and I posted at the time) he was taken.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Me too, I'm conflicted and trying to understand what RR is thinking. Maybe there's much more to come and it'll all add up to make a ton of sense?

 

I don't understand your confusion. 

 

1. Ron knows he doesn't have a competent NFL QB on the roster.  That's why they signed Fitz last year, because they knew neither TH or Allen could start.  Then Fitz got hurt, and TH proved he couldn't start.  So, now we absolutely definitively know there is not a qualified starting QB on the team.

2. They wanted to swing big, and they did, and they failed.  They were smart enough to realize they probably were going to fail, so they had a variety of backup plans in place

3.  They have evaluated the draft class and, at the very least, don't believe there is a day 1 starter in the draft.  If they did, they would have probably made a trade up to get the draft pick. So, since there isn't a day 1 starter in the draft, they still need a guy to start.

4. They evaluated Wentz higher than Mitch, Marcus, Dalton and any of the other FA Qbs.  

5. They probably were clued in that Mitch was going to have options, and was going to have his choices of places to go.  My guess is Marcus was also. They realized the absolute worst case scenario was to go into FA and then not actually get even a reclamation project FA.  

6. They are probably out on Jimmy G. because of the shoulder surgery. 

7. They don't believe Carr is going to be available.  

 

SO, when you go down through all of the options, they landed on the one that was most appealing: Wentz for 1 year to see how it goes.  It cost them moving back 6 spots this year in the draft, a 3rd in this years draft, and a conditional 2nd/3rd next year.  If Wentz plays badly, he'll be benched for a rookie, won't hit the 70% target, and it will be 2 3rds.  If he plays well, then it's worth 2 3rds.

 

I'm not sure where the logic breaks down.

 

It's not the solution Ron wanted.  It's not the solution the fans wanted.  But it is what was available.  And it is better than Mitch, Marcus, or any of the other FA QBs.  

 

47 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I have no clue what Ron personally thinks of Taylor. From what I gather he seems to think Heinicke is a good dude and likes his competitiveness and work ethic. But Ron's actions, words, and the fact that they openly were looking for an upgrade at the position from the moment the season ended tells me that Ron also doesn't think Heinicke is a starting caliber NFL QB.

There was a presser where Marty said, "we have a 2.  We need a starter."  It was during the combine.  This was after saying he got a "field promotion" and did all these wonderful things.  Then he said "we have a 2."  Marty wouldn't say that unless it's what he and Ron agreed on.  So basically, that's what Ron and Marty think of TH. 

 

I actually think he's going to be a 3 this year behind Wentz and a rookie.  But will be on the team.  

 

34 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I actually think Kyle Allen is the better between him and Heinicke.  At minimum, they're equal, but Allen's arm talent compared to Heinicke gives him the edge, IMO.

That's really like picking between a ford pinto and a 1980's Ugo. They're both ugly old slow cars. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I really, really, really believe we will take a QB in the second round.  Whichever one is left of Howell, Strong and Ridder.  My bet is it's Strong.  But it really could be any of them.

 

I wouldn't rule out a trade down for a few more spots from our current second round pick to even later in the second or the top of the 3rd for that, but I think it's happening.  

 

They're going to want to hedge their bets on Wentz, and draft the backup for 2023.  Because I can't see any world where they extend or re-sign TH.  They'll want the backup on a rookie deal.  

[Warhead36]

Yeah I don't think there is any chance we take a QB at 11. But since we swapped picks with Indy in round 2, we'll be picking late enough there that we probably miss out on the value talent at other positions and could take a flyer on a QB who falls a bit.

[MrJL]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I don't think there is any chance we take a QB at 11. But since we swapped picks with Indy in round 2, we'll be picking late enough there that we probably miss out on the value talent at other positions and could take a flyer on a QB who falls a bit.

 

we're only moving back five spots

Edited March 10, 2022 by MrJL

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

People have short memories.  It's almost as if the Kirk/Bruce war never happened here, as if it wasn't filled with anonymous leaks and then eventually sending folks out to muddy the waters for Kirk after they traded for Smith.  Teams regularly try to get out in front of bad press or plant anonymous seeds to make whatever move they are about to make seem necessary and paint the outgoing player as the bad guy.  It's the entire reason I was really skeptical of the 'Everyone hates Wentz' narrative that was being pushed a few weeks ago, it seemed to pop out of thin air and there wasn't even so much as a whisper from that entire locker room that it was remotely true. Since the announcement, the only thing I've seen is the Colts prominent players going out of their way to say nice things about him.

 

 

Yeah the Colts did a big time job trashing Wentz.   And its being accepting as truth by some.  Even when some cracks are starting to form including some questions of whether Reich wanted to move on, and ditto Ballard or were they just taking orders from Irsay.  But that narrative gets in the way of a good story so I think we are stuck with the good riddance as to Wentz and don't be fooled by the 4:1 TD to INT ratio or the 9th rated QBR -- because he really played like John Beck and if Reich can't "fix" him nobody can. 

 

Speaking of Kirk.  The Eagles reporter, Reuben Frank, who has covered the Eagles for a long time including during the Wentz era actually said on Sheehan's show that he learned that it was Wentz who wanted out -- it wasn't the Eagles couldn't wait to cut bait as the narrative seems to be accepted by most.  He said what he learned was Wentz wanted to leave and the Eagles tried to talk him into staying.  If so, it flies in the face of the narrative that the Eagles couldn't wait to cut bait -- but from an Eagles point of view you'd want to sell that narrative not the one that Wentz wanted to go.

 

Look I am not saying Wentz is a pristine prospect.  We wouldn't have a shot at him if he were.  But going with the PR narratives you got to take some of them with a grain of salt. 

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I really, really, really believe we will take a QB in the second round.  Whichever one is left of Howell, Strong and Ridder.  My bet is it's Strong.  But it really could be any of them.

 

I wouldn't rule out a trade down for a few more spots from our current second round pick to even later in the second or the top of the 3rd for that, but I think it's happening.  

 

They're going to want to hedge their bets on Wentz, and draft the backup for 2023.  Because I can't see any world where they extend or re-sign TH.  They'll want the backup on a rookie deal.  

 

I think so too.  I'd be surprised if its in the first but I think good shot in the 2nd if Ridder or Strong is there.  

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[MisterPinstripe]

Yeah its been interesting listening to the media conversation. Outside of a few outliers everyone talks about Wentz as if he was constantly throwing picks and couldnt put up points. Comparing the reaction to when we signed Fitzpatrick its like Wentz couldnt even wash Fitzys feet and would be the worst QB in the league. Everyone seems to be jumping on the narrative versus stepping back and just looking at what he has done. Trubisky is talked up about going to fix the Colts and trading for Wentz is like trading for Nathan Peterman. Going to be interesting this year for sure.

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah the Colts did a big time job trashing Wentz.   And its being accepting as truth by some.  Even when some cracks are starting to form including some questions of whether Reich wanted to move on, and ditto Ballard or were they just taking orders from Irsay.  But that narrative gets in the way of a good story so I think we are stuck with the good riddance as to Wentz and don't be fooled by the 4:1 TD to INT ratio or the 9th rated QBR -- because he really played like John Beck and if Reich can't "fix" him nobody can. 

 

Speaking of Kirk.  The Eagles reporter, Reuben Frank, who has covered the Eagles for a long time including during the Wentz era actually said on Sheehan's show that he learned that it was Wentz who wanted out -- it wasn't the Eagles couldn't wait to cut bait as the narrative seems to be accepted by most.  He said what he learned was Wentz wanted to leave and the Eagles tried to talk him into staying.  If so, it flies in the face of the narrative that the Eagles couldn't wait to cut bait -- but from an Eagles point of view you'd want to sell that narrative not the one that Wentz wanted to go.

 

Look I am not saying Wentz is a pristine prospect.  We wouldn't have a shot at him if he were.  But going with the PR narratives you got to take some of them with a grain of salt. 

 

I think so too.  I'd be surprised if its in the first but I think good shot in the 2nd if Ridder or Strong is there.  

Ron is not paying Carson $28M looking to build trust and taking a day 1 or day 2 pick at QB. I just don’t see it. Ron is looking to win the division this year. The time for a rookie has passed in the Rivera era. Either Ron takes one in a few years after a lot of success or his successor picks one within the next 2 years. 

[HigSkin]

9 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Yeah its been interesting listening to the media conversation. Outside of a few outliers everyone talks about Wentz as if he was constantly throwing picks and couldnt put up points. Comparing the reaction to when we signed Fitzpatrick its like Wentz couldnt even wash Fitzys feet and would be the worst QB in the league. Everyone seems to be jumping on the narrative versus stepping back and just looking at what he has done. Trubisky is talked up about going to fix the Colts and trading for Wentz is like trading for Nathan Peterman. Going to be interesting this year for sure.

 

Sam Acho calls it 'group think' which is pretty appropriate for those who don't go do some research before they react.  Lol

 

I mean if anyone seriously goes back thru these post pages for data, go out to YouTube and look at highlights, mic'd up, etc they'll see this is actually a really good move.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by HigSkin

[Conn]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Every trade is a dude leaving somewhere. That means nothing

 

Whether we get a guy or not, knowing bits and pieces of the process is common place that is widespread across the NFL. That's not some revelation and it does not make this situation any different.

 

Respond to the specific contents of my posts or don’t, it’s not a conversation if you generalize what I said into a broader idea that you can more easily tear down. I’m making a specific argument that you keep misrepresenting into something more general that sounds dumb. I’m dumb enough on my own without your help, thank you. I’m talking about this trade and other specific instances that apply to us, not whatever you’re talking about. 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

Love the potential of Ron to flex his super power as coach through building a strong rapport and trust with Wentz. Sometimes the defensive coach is a good match for a type A personality at the QB spot, because it’s not a battle of egos of how it should be done. For example, there’s no way Wentz could play for a Kyle and Sean even though they’re two of the better coaches in the NFL. 

 

I don't know about this.  I think McVay could coach anyone.  He is a rare talent with a photographic memory and encyclopedic knowledge of plays that is a huge resource for any QB.  Especially so for smart QBs with an attention for detail because he can get on the same page so easily with them.  That's why his partnership with Stafford worked out so spectacularly well.  But hopefully Wentz can form a really good relationship with Turner and Zampese.

 

I think there is still a big leadership void in our locker room that is kind of a big problem, especially if things don't start off well in a season.  By most accounts, Wentz is kind of an aloof player who isn't the standard setting take-no-bull**** kind of leader that fills your locker room with confidence.  I thought we had those kinds of dudes in Chase and Allen and Terry, but I think Terry is too quiet, Jonathan Allen is too hard-nosed and bad with people, and Chase is too young or checked out and not quite credible enough yet.  Scherff isn't that guy either, he's had one foot out of the door for two years.  Neither is Roullier.  We need someone who is that dude who can set the standard of excellence in the locker room and simultaneously inspire confidence/mimcry and keep people accountable.

 

Bobby Wagner?

 

That's part of the reason why I think Nakobe Dean or Devin Lloyd would be such an incredibly great fit here.

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Ron is not paying Carson $28M looking to build trust and taking a day 1 or day 2 pick at QB. I just don’t see it. Ron is looking to win the division this year. The time for a rookie has passed in the Rivera era. Either Ron takes one in a few years after a lot of success or his successor picks one within the next 2 years. 

 

I get what you think. This is the 2nd time you are pushing this narrative.   My narrative isn't about my own personal guess.   Its riding with Keim.  Keim isn't always right but he often is.  

 

He has said its serously on the table based on his sources with the team.  Not 100% but its in play, more likely in the 2nd/3rd round.

 

He's talked about their interest in Wentz for weeks, including the same morning before he was acquired.  And when he did he mentioned that he was told that the idea of Wentz could include a rookie potentially drafted at the same time.  The logic is two shots down the well.   Keim got the first part right about Wentz, you are saying he's wrong about the 2nd part and his sources are lying to him.  Maybe?  Will see. 

 

But for me I've yet to find any insider or name that random dude on this board who has better information than Keim.   I've learned not to dismiss what he says, especially if its something he's said repeatedly.   But will see sometimes the behind the scenes narrative changes.  In an issue like this, maybe they get Wentz in the building and they are instantly in love with his persona and decide no way they are hedging their bets.  

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

23 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

That's the thing that gets me. People acting like we got fleased too. The Colts have no first and got a 3rd back for it and not have nobody. 5 QBs in 5 years and now nobody. 

 

If Rodgers set the market at 50 mil, Wentz is probably between 12 and 15, so 28 is perfect. This will be by far the best offense that he's been on. If it doesn't work, we can easily walk away. Next year if we want to trade for someone, we now have a legit QB to trade also. 

 

Nobody wanted to come here. Trubinsky would rather go to the Giants with a starter.

Uh, the 2017 Eagles was the best offense he was on.  He was 11-2 before he got injured.  He was cruising to a MVP that year and probably would've taken the Eagles to the Superbowl himself. 

[RWJ]

Ridder?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by RWJ

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Bobby Wagner?

 

That's part of the reason why I think Nakobe Dean or Devin Lloyd would be such an incredibly great fit here.

 

Agree.  Love all three players.  Dean I know is a leader.    I haven't read about Lloyd on that front.

 

We haven't really had a mega leader arguably since London Fletcher and D. Hall.  We got a lot of quiet guys and dudes who aren't natural leaders.  I think Chase has the potential to be that but he needs to get his own business together first.  

 

Even Alex Smith who some touted for his leadership.  If you read about it, it was more about he was a blend in one of the guys kind of dude and kept people calm in the pocket during the game -- but he wasn't from what I read a Peyton Manning vocal type. 

 

Kerrigan was quiet.  Jonathan Allen is mostly quiet until he gets pissed off. The LBs we got now are quiet.  The corners are quiet.    

 

From what I've read Leno brings some leadership skills but nothing off the charts. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

I get that, it's basically a lot like Shanny getting McNabb as a bridge, and landing Alex Smith several years ago, and going after Brad Johnson in the '99 offseason when the sale prevented us from extending/resigning Trent Green. Not a perfect match w/any of those examples other than maybe Brad because Wentz isn't a senior citizen level NFL player, he's got 5-7 years at least of usefulness if he can stay healthy.

 

Otoh, it's very much in keeping with Snyders "short cuts only" approach to running the team over the years. He's never done a tear down full rebuild EVER. The team has cratered multiple times, but never on purpose, just through mismanagement.  This is another short cut, which is why people say "Snyder" even though it's a much more obvious example of a coach desperately reaching for a life preserver sniffing out the blood in the water "firing year" just like how Grunfeld and McPhee sold young, valuable assets for old, vets to try and forestall the GM reaper their last years on the job. It's more of that. The saving grace is that technically, it's possible to imagine Wentz actually developing into something good a la Rich Gannon, or Jim Plunkett etc in his thirties. The raw physical talent is still there, the underlying metrics are positive, he's not old, he'll be playing his age 29 season next year. It's forseeable he could play into the late 2020's as a starter if he can stop his downward descent in overall leaguewide esteem that has been going nonstop since he got hurt late in '17. 

[Darth Tater]

A big thing is that the Colts now have nothing at QB and no assets to fix the issue. Now, given the rest of the team, I do think they'd be in play for the major FAs. Of course, only things that would give me a positive would be some sort of surprise (like Luck unretires or Sam Ehlinger turns out to be some sort of second coming of Tom Brady).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Yeah a few of us have brought up Ertz in the FA thread. Seems like an obvious move at this stage.

 

Has nobody bothered to mock up Wentz in our new uni’s yet ????

yeesh, straight pass. Ertz body is breaking down. He's a catch and fall down TE these days. Straight pass for me. Lots, lots, lots more interesting options available than him. Eagles actually waited way too long to move on to Goedert from him.