The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

You're responding to a post from 24 hours ago when there was some confusion from some posters and correcting something no one thinks anymore. Come join us in the last few pages from today lol 

I'm slowly catching up.  Too many damn posts but this thread should start to slow down; especially after the draft when we don't draft a qb.

 

The QB question is answered unless Carson continues his problems and no playoffs.

2 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Actually RR is on the record as saying he wants 2 Vets and a Rookie as his QB depth chart.  We’re not resigning Allen.  I’d love for us to be able to get Howell or Ridder in the 2d 

Wentz isn't going to be able to mentally handle that.

[Spaceman Spiff]

50 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I don't understand your confusion. 

 

1. Ron knows he doesn't have a competent NFL QB on the roster.  That's why they signed Fitz last year, because they knew neither TH or Allen could start.  Then Fitz got hurt, and TH proved he couldn't start.  So, now we absolutely definitively know there is not a qualified starting QB on the team.

2. They wanted to swing big, and they did, and they failed.  They were smart enough to realize they probably were going to fail, so they had a variety of backup plans in place

3.  They have evaluated the draft class and, at the very least, don't believe there is a day 1 starter in the draft.  If they did, they would have probably made a trade up to get the draft pick. So, since there isn't a day 1 starter in the draft, they still need a guy to start.

4. They evaluated Wentz higher than Mitch, Marcus, Dalton and any of the other FA Qbs.  

5. They probably were clued in that Mitch was going to have options, and was going to have his choices of places to go.  My guess is Marcus was also. They realized the absolute worst case scenario was to go into FA and then not actually get even a reclamation project FA.  

6. They are probably out on Jimmy G. because of the shoulder surgery. 

7. They don't believe Carr is going to be available.  

 

SO, when you go down through all of the options, they landed on the one that was most appealing: Wentz for 1 year to see how it goes.  It cost them moving back 6 spots this year in the draft, a 3rd in this years draft, and a conditional 2nd/3rd next year.  If Wentz plays badly, he'll be benched for a rookie, won't hit the 70% target, and it will be 2 3rds.  If he plays well, then it's worth 2 3rds.

 

I'm not sure where the logic breaks down.

 

It's not the solution Ron wanted.  It's not the solution the fans wanted.  But it is what was available.  And it is better than Mitch, Marcus, or any of the other FA QBs.  

 

There was a presser where Marty said, "we have a 2.  We need a starter."  It was during the combine.  This was after saying he got a "field promotion" and did all these wonderful things.  Then he said "we have a 2."  Marty wouldn't say that unless it's what he and Ron agreed on.  So basically, that's what Ron and Marty think of TH. 

 

I actually think he's going to be a 3 this year behind Wentz and a rookie.  But will be on the team.  

 

That's really like picking between a ford pinto and a 1980's Ugo. They're both ugly old slow cars. 

 

Totally with you until point #4 (which you redeemed yourself with in point #5) I don't know if they evaluated Wentz higher than those guys but I think it's possible they viewed Wentz as a guy that they could trade for due to the fact that he was about to be released.  I think the Commies know that they're not an attractive place and the other FA QBs wouldn't be interested in coming here.  I mean, if all things are equal between the Commies and practically any other NFL franchise, where are you gonna sign?

 

So they had to make a trade for someone in order to not compete on the free agent market where they'd most likely come up empty or be left with, like, the worst table scraps.

 

TBD if it's better than Troobs, Mariota or the rest.  It certainly can be, but I can also see a scenario where it's a disaster.  But it's only a disaster for one year so it's not THAT bad, but still a waste of a year where we've got a decent team around a **** quarterback.

 

[method man]

5 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

yeesh, straight pass. Ertz body is breaking down. He's a catch and fall down TE these days. Straight pass for me. Lots, lots, lots more interesting options available than him. Eagles actually waited way too long to move on to Goedert from him. 

 

I don't think he's going to be particularly expensive. He quietly put up 760 receiving yards last year, which is still very good. He also played all 17 games last year. If the goal is to get Wentz as comfortable as possible, bringing Ertz here for $5M or less is a no brainer

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree with just about every point said that defends the Wentz trade.  The only one I disagree with is Jimmy G ends up more expensive.  I agree as far as salary but I doubt that it will take many draft picks.  Rumor is it could be as little as a 4th rounder.  Will see though.

 

Wentz > Jimmy G.   And Jimmy G gets hurt a lot and is coming off an injury right now. 

 

The thing that makes me nervous right now is that I think:

Arm Talent: Wentz >Jimmy G

 

Team Leader: Jimmy G>Wentz

 

And none of this has to do with the fact that Wentz got trashed on his way out w/all those notorious (hold this story till he's traded so we dont burn brides, hit pieces). It's because when things were right for Jimmy G and he was healthy, he was superb w/his good teams in New England before he was traded, and with SF in '16, and again w/great SF teams in '19 and '21. It would be wrong to argue that he was carrying those niner teams, he wasn't (other than the '16 team where he was huge in building that 5-0 run), but it's hard to argue the idea that he wasn't able to help guide those teams to great runs in '16, '19 and '21. I have seen Wentz play like a legit leader and great QB once, in '17, and not since. 

 

So while I do think we're getting a more talented QB than Garop, easily, I am not at all sold we're getting a QB that can lead us, or be that guy behind center on an overperforming surprise team like garop was in SF in '16, '19 and '21. I don't see that at all. This seems like one of those rare instances in which the talent, probably is more harmful than helpful in how deceiving it can be, kind of like with Kirk. Just good enough to lose, like they said about DeBerg before Montana took his job. 

[Anselmheifer]

SIP, my issue with the idea of drafting an athletic rookie with a similar play style to our vet is resource allocation. 
 

The things Keon says don’t seem to add up to me. One rumor was that we would spend a 2nd-4th round pick on a QB if we made a move for a solid vet. The other rumor being that we’d try to get an athletic QB for our athletic vet to mentor? That’s not happening outside the 1st. I really think Ridder is going in the first now. Corral, Willis, Pickett, all in the 1st. Howell maybe? I just don’t see it. 
 

Rivera clearly made the move for Wentz because he wants to win now. If we had a QB that passed for 27 TD and 7 INT last year, we would have made the playoffs with one of the most difficult schedules in the NFL. This year, we will have one of the easiest, and I expect will also have an improved roster outside of QB. I have to believe that we are going to use the 11th pick on someone that can help us win now. 

[Going Commando]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I haven't read about Lloyd on that front.

 

He's an alpha and a Ron Rivera type of guy.  Palpable superstar aura on the field with a highly physical playing style.  Reputation of being the leader in Utah's locker room--two time team captain.  Parents were Navy.  I think he's the kind of tone setter we're looking for.

 

Comparing him to Dean, I would say Dean stays locked in better and he's a more aggressive and instinctive blitzer.  Lloyd is bigger and has true blow-back power and he's a lot more natural at playing the ball in coverage so he gives you both more playmaking in your middle zones/coverage versatility plus more thumping.  But Dean would be such a great fit here personality-wise.  You love his instincts and you love his blitzing ability plus he has the capacity to singe cover slots too.

 

I would say if we stay at 11, then Lloyd.  But if we trade down, Dean would be perfect.  Dean + a 3rd feels like enough to tip the scales in his favor over just Lloyd for me.

[FootballZombie]

21 minutes ago, Conn said:

Respond to the specific contents of my posts or don’t, it’s not a conversation if you generalize what I said into a broader idea that you can more easily tear down. I’m making a specific argument that you keep misrepresenting into something more general that sounds dumb. I’m dumb enough on my own without your help, thank you. I’m talking about this trade and other specific instances that apply to us, not whatever you’re talking about. 

 

 I responded to the new stuff, beyond that your asking me to repeat myself.

 

I don't know how you see this a focusing on a specific subject when you continuously spin the discussion to include media agendas, trying to insinuate that knowing details of trades is somehow strange and effects rationality. You can go back and look at my posts before that information came to light. I said it was an overpay from the jump, it had no impact on my stance.

 

 

If you want to construct some scenario as to why we overpaid, you are free to do you, but that still does not change the fact that we did either. That price was still paid.

 

If you want to feel good about it or feel its justified to pay that price that again does not change the fact that you overpaid for it.

[Voice_of_Reason]

52 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Ron is not paying Carson $28M looking to build trust and taking a day 1 or day 2 pick at QB. I just don’t see it. Ron is looking to win the division this year. The time for a rookie has passed in the Rivera era. Either Ron takes one in a few years after a lot of success or his successor picks one within the next 2 years. 

I think they can justify a late second or third (trade back) QB just saying they are at the least looking to replace TH either this year or next.  Chances are that guy is the backup on a rookie deal.  If they develop, awesome.  If Wentz flames out, you might have guy who can play in 2023.

 

They won’t do it at 11 but they need another talented player in the building.  
 

Think 2012 with Griffin and Cousins.  They didn’t want Rex as even a backup even though he started in 2011.  I see that exactly the same way with TH.  Except they didn’t even want TH to play last year, he did because he was forced to. 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They tried to trade up.  The idea that they weren't willing to give up a really big time bounty price -- that's what was said by one who covers the team albeit we never heard what that was for Fields.   I don't think there is that much hand wringing on that yet considering Fields "meh" rookie year coupled with some NFL buzz that has questioned his chances to succeed for various reasons.  And this is coming from me who was one of the higher people on Fields.  I don't think there is hand wringing about that at least not yet.

 

But considering Rivera's rhetoric he's certainly alluded to being upset about not landing Stafford and talking about no one cares about what the Rams paid for him.  So I gather maybe they'd give him multiple ones if they had to do that one over like they offered for Wilson with the benefit of hindsight.  But like Wilson I think the answer still would have been no.

 

 

23 draft is still in play.  They can still get Will Levis, Haener, Rattler or whichever player like that who they can get at their pick or realistically trade up for. 

I'm highly skeptical, as for trading up, they didn't make a serious effort because they didn't move up. Didn't matter how much it cost, youre getting guys that many people thought should have gone #2 overall or #3 overall (and in time, at least Jones, and I definitely believe Fields, will be looked at as steals, clearly Mac already is). There was no price that was too high to pay for two guys that should have gone top 2-3 overall and were available in the double digits. I dont see how its even possible to conceive that the direction they went was wiser than actually paying the iron price, it was obvious at least to me at the time, and it's definitely obvious now, that 1 of the 2 is already a confirmed franchise QB (though I think Jones Ceiling is Matt Ryan to Matt Ryan-lite rather than HOF talent).. 

 

Stafford argument has never sat well w/me but you know that, he was/is what, four years older than Wentz is now, back issues, and a wife whose battling cancer, Im not a big fan of trading the farm for an old QB with back issues and every reason in the world to retire. Thought that was crazy then, and still do. 

 

As for the QB's in this class, ehhh, I'd still take Willis or Corall at 11 w/o a second thought, otherwise I'd consider QB in round 2.

 

But honestly I think how this plays out seems kind of obvious, just on the odds. I'd bet it plays out like a cross between Alex Smith, Boonell, and Brad Johnson but w/2000, rather than 1999 being the performance. I suspect he's just good enough to make us stick with him and we get nowhere, we play just over and just under .500 ball for the length of his contract, and then move on a few years from now with nothing to show for it beyond more above and below .500 seasons and still no answer at QB on the roster, and that hilarious angle: no drafted and developed HOF caliber QB's since The Great Depression streak still very much intact (probably the craziest, most hidden, and yes cherry picked, and yet still accurate streak in history of any successful team. I find it astonishing that the Redskins managed to make 5 super bowls, win 3, and produce tons of playoff seasons since Sammy Baugh retired, and yet never drafted, developed and produced a HOF caliber QB career once in that run of 75 or so years). 

 

I hope I'm wrong. If Wentz suddenly turns into what was hoped five years ago after '17, which isn't impossible to imagine, we'd have pulled what the Raiders did twice with Plunkett in the eighties and Gannon in the aughts. It can happen, and has. Maybe it can again, but I remain deeply skeptical. He's got six years on his CV, nice big #'s, lots of injuries, and little winning football, how much is his fault, and how much isn't? I don't know, but the more I think about it, the more I see Cousins: kind of empty #'s. I can't tell you how many times I've rolled out Wentz on my 2 QB teams and then just shook my head at the bizarre up and down nature of his teams performances. 

 

We'll see, he's a mystery to me, but I dont disagree w/your general view: of all the QB's available last offseason and this, the only one I view as a more attractive option for what I want would have been Watson, who is truly elite. I don't believe in going after QB's as old and concerning as Stafford, Wilson, Rodgers and the like, I want to build something. Wentz is young enough to believe that the talent, and possibilities, if they played out just right, could produce something worth while for half a decade. You can't say that about the older vets I eschewed, and the dumpster diving options like Trubisky held no attraction whatsoever. They are proven nothings. Wentz is more a million question marks, but with some positives mixed in. 

 

If they were going to do something that confused me all offseason and left me in doubt of how things would play out, few things could have been better than this. Otoh, I also will just go w/the trends I see in his play, which for me, anyway, suggest more .500 caliber teams and performances. Again, hope I'm wrong, and I definitely could be, and to be fair, betting on one of these rookies turning into more than what Wentz is literally now, was and is definitely longer odds (other than maybe Willis, who due to his arm, and athleticism, will always be valuable and useful no matter how much he develops). 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Wentz isn't going to be able to mentally handle that.

I think he will be able to.  The Eagles thing screwed him ip a bit but Hurts was not drafted to just be a backup. 
 

I also think Ron is pretty good at communicating with players and I’m sure he’s going to sit down with Carson and basically say it’s his job until he proves he can’t do it.  They might bring in another player but clearly as a backup.  
 

At some level I also think Wentz will understand this. He is a bit older.  He’s been through a few things.  People do change and grow and mature.  

[philibusters]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think they can justify a late second or third (trade back) QB just saying they are at the least looking to replace TH either this year or next.  Chances are that guy is the backup on a rookie deal.  If they develop, awesome.  If Wentz flames out, you might have guy who can play in 2023.

 

They won’t do it at 11 but they need another talented player in the building.  
 

Think 2012 with Griffin and Cousins.  They didn’t want Rex as even a backup even though he started in 2011.  I see that exactly the same way with TH.  Except they didn’t even want TH to play last year, he did because he was forced to. 

 

To me Taylor Heincke is just fine as a backup.  Wentz is our guy.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, philibusters said:

 

To me Taylor Heincke is just fine as a backup.  Wentz is our guy.  

He might be the backup this year.  
 

I would bet a burrito he won’t be in the team in 2023. 

[dunfer]

You dont have to justify any picks to carson wentz. If you want to take a QB take a QB.

 

Now I wouldnt take one with 11 that we werent going to start. Id rather have a starter at a different position. For sure though take a qb in the second or third though who cares how carson feels about it.

[Stone Cold]

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think he will be able to.  The Eagles thing screwed him ip a bit but Hurts was not drafted to just be a backup. 
 

I also think Ron is pretty good at communicating with players and I’m sure he’s going to sit down with Carson and basically say it’s his job until he proves he can’t do it.  They might bring in another player but clearly as a backup.  
 

At some level I also think Wentz will understand this. He is a bit older.  He’s been through a few things.  People do change and grow and mature.  

Wentz is coming in knowing he is the starter for this year…on a 1 year show us deal.  
Drafting a QB doesn’t impact wentz until after the coming season when he has to weigh 2022s results with the rookies development.  

wentz comes and balls it’s moot who we draft.  He comes and is meh, we’ll be happy we have someone developing.  It’s called good business

[CommandB11]

Nevermind

Edited March 10, 2022 by panahoo

[88Comrade2000]

28 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He might be the backup this year.  
 

I would bet a burrito he won’t be in the team in 2023. 

Oh no; where would the hive go to?

 

Does Taylor’s sister have that big of a couch.

Edited March 10, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen]

Wentz threw a hissy fit when the Eagles drafted Hurts...who's to say he won't do the same if Ron picks a QB high?

[zCommander]

I feel that Wentz is here for the long haul. Time to groom a rookie has passed for Ron. You don't give up $28 mil and high picks for a QB that you don't believe will be here longer than 1 year. Getting a QB this year doesn't make any sense to me. You lost a 3rd this year so you want to get as many good weapons for Wentz as possible. You need to make sure Wentz is not looking over his shoulder or thinking he is just a bridge QB. 

[SoCalSkins]

35 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think they can justify a late second or third (trade back) QB just saying they are at the least looking to replace TH either this year or next.  Chances are that guy is the backup on a rookie deal.  If they develop, awesome.  If Wentz flames out, you might have guy who can play in 2023.

 

They won’t do it at 11 but they need another talented player in the building.  
 

Think 2012 with Griffin and Cousins.  They didn’t want Rex as even a backup even though he started in 2011.  I see that exactly the same way with TH.  Except they didn’t even want TH to play last year, he did because he was forced to. 

Carson’s relationship went south with Philly when they drafted Hurts. I just don’t see it. We don’t have a 3rd  now and if we do trade back smartest move is to trade back for a first next year and have draft capital for 2023 than picking from the scraps of this crap QB class this year. I fully expect us to go all in on impacting 2022. Ron has said this is the year he expects a huge step forward. 

[zCommander]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He might be the backup this year.  
 

I would bet a burrito he won’t be in the team in 2023. 

 

I would have bet you that burrito but knowing you it will be just a bean burrito. 🤮

[ExoDus84]

4 minutes ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

Wentz threw a hissy fit when the Eagles drafted Hurts...who's to say he won't do the same if Ron picks a QB high?

 

He was just dumped after 1 year by his high school sweetheart Frank Reich. He has to know his attitude played into that. If he's smart, he'll be a team player as much as possible, otherwise his career is going to careen into a ditch real quick.

[88Comrade2000]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

I feel that Wentz is here for the long haul. Time to groom a rookie has passed for Ron. You don't give up $28 mil and high picks for a QB that you don't believe will be here longer than 1 year. Getting a QB this year doesn't make any sense to me. You lost a 3rd this year so you want to get as many good weapons for Wentz as possible. You need to make sure Wentz is not looking over his shoulder or thinking he is just a bridge QB. 

Of course. Ron is done with starting qbs. 
Just need a backup better than Heinicke. If Wentz flops; Ron won’t be the one finding another QB.

2 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

He was just dumped after 1 year by his high school sweetheart Frank Reich. He has to know his attitude played into that. If he's smart, he'll be a team player as much as possible, otherwise his career is going to careen into a ditch real quick.

Or maybe he doesn’t care. He’s supposedly deeply religious. Maybe he will come the conclusion, football isn’t his calling and something else is.

Edited March 10, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, BringMetheHeadofBruceAllen said:

Wentz threw a hissy fit when the Eagles drafted Hurts...who's to say he won't do the same if Ron picks a QB high?

He was the 2nd overall pick, signed a franchise QB deal and had a season where he was an NFL MVP favorite before hurting his knee. He had every right to throw a fit. Same with Rodgers when they drafted Love. Same with Trent Williams when we drafted his heir apparent. 

3 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

He was just dumped after 1 year by his high school sweetheart Frank Reich. He has to know his attitude played into that. If he's smart, he'll be a team player as much as possible, otherwise his career is going to careen into a ditch real quick.

He was dumped by the owner. Add 25 years of hard core drug use to Dan and you have Irsay.

[ExoDus84]

5 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Maybe he will come the conclusion, football isn’t his calling and something else is.

 

Aye, then it's off to the gulag with him, comrade.

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, ExoDus84 said:

 

Aye, then it's off to the gulag with him, comrade.

He can’t be that religious. If South Park has taught us anything is that gingers have no souls.