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The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

Koolblue13

By Koolblue13
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Jets are better across the board. Their QB-ing was so bad that Heinicke would have actually  been an upgrade for them. Heck WENTZ might have been better then what they got.

 

Disagree.

 

Defense is about the same, Jets a little higher on DVOA, points, we are a little higher ranked on yards.  Both teams with really good defenses.   I think WRs are about the same, I actually like ours a hair better because I am a big Dotson guy, I liked Elijah predraft but he hasn't really bloomed. 

 

RBs are about the same albeit totally different types of backs that is assuming Breece Hall recovers well from the ACL injury, not every RB does in year 1 post that injury.  

 

Weaknesses the same -- both with crap QB situations, I like ours better.    Their O line ranked next to last by PFF.  Hecks ours isn't hot but ranked 17th.  I watched the Jets-Dolphins game, and they were banged up at their spot, I'll give them that, but their pass protection was horrendous.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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MrJL

MrJL

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1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I legit don't care what rage hate fantasy you've drawn up in your imagination about Brady. Like not at all. I am not even interested enough to want to laugh at it.

You're  just interested enough to type about it.

 

And it's  not about fantasy. It about the Patriots culture that gave us Spygate and Deflategate

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Koolblue13

Koolblue13

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3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

A bit part of me really wants us to stick with Howell. But I have to admit, getting Derek Carr without blowing too much in a trade is damn tempting. Rivera has to be in on that deal, right?

Ron has swung for the fences for every possible QB around, but can't get them. I doubt Dans cash poor ass is about to spend anything on a FA this year though.

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Daniel.redskins

Daniel.redskins

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17 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Why's it so difficult to just stick with a QB they handpicked? See what he's got, build around him, and maybe we'll get lucky. If not great, how's it any different from where this team has been for years?

Because it's too much common sense for most people.  I just can't believe there are talks of Carr or Brisset coming here.  These players were released for a reason, they are not hidden gems and we will not win more than 7 games with them.  Howell has potential to really be something .  Start Howell and bring in another young QB to develop as the backup.  

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KDawg

KDawg

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5 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Because it's too much common sense for most people.  I just can't believe there are talks of Carr or Brisset coming here.  These players were released for a reason, they are not hidden gems and we will not win more than 7 games with them.  Howell has potential to really be something .  Start Howell and bring in another young QB to develop as the backup.  


The talk of Brissett is as a backup. Not a soul wants him as QB1

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The Consigliere

The Consigliere

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On 1/9/2023 at 5:40 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Keim said they were high on Howell before the draft and would have considered him in the 2nd round if they didn't make a move for Wentz.  Even with Wentz in the fold they couldn't resist taking Howell when he kept falling.   Howell himself said he spent a lot of time with this coaching staff pre-draft and this is the place he wanted to go.

 

I think Howell succeeding would save Rivera's job if anything, if its on the line.   The best way to overcome screwing up on Wentz, is yeah that was a mistake but we got it right with Howell.    They wanted Howell, he wasn't foisted on them.

 

It's like killing the Seahawks for overspending on Matt Flynn and then Russell Wilson ending up the guy.  As a Seahawks fan, I wouldn't care about Flynn.

 

As I've said here multiple times, I love Howie Roseman's take on the process which he laid out years ago, its very very very hard to find a Qb, you will make mistakes, so keep taking shots and don't dwell or double down on the mistakes.  Roseman drafted Foles.  He traded for Bradford.  He signed a ridiculous contract for Chase Daniel.  He traded up for Wentz and it ultimately blew up on him.  And he drafted Hurts.   The sausage making was ugly but it ended well.  

 

I don't care who our FO is, I don't want to crap on them for throwing multiple darts at the draft board and killing them for darts missing along the way.  That's how I want them to roll.  Try different things, be fearless, ignore fan wrath, that's the right approach IMO.  Doubling down with Jason Campbell or RG3 or name that QB who is struggiling for too long, just wastes time (unless you like what you see from said QB and there is contect to their struggles), and its how this franchise has rolled.  Yuck. 

 

We don't know yet if Howell is the right guy, I think he has a good chance, will see.  But I don't care at all about what misses they had in the process, I like the process a lot.  If people want to give a hard time to Rivera for misses for whatever reason, I am OK with that, but I'll defend the process of throwing darts.  It's taken me a long time to get here but I want to keep shooting at the QB spot until we find that guy, versus being patient, I expect some misses, but I want a FO who doesn't double down on them and takes multiple shots.  And there is nuance to my point, for example if we draft the first QB in the draft and he's an insane talent, yeah take your time but as for QB's with questionable skills-work ethic, etc -- either move on or if you want to hedge your bets draft competition.

 

 

 

I can't defend what they did in 2020 or 2021, I thought and think the choices they made back then at QB were idiotic (though at least the Haskins thing is explicable w/Young there, I still wouldn't have done it but I understood it, passing on QB in '21 was clinically insane though). I also would note that Wentz doesn't equal Flynn. Whatever waste Seattle made w/Flynn was limited to Free Agent money and flexibility which they recouped by having Wilson a rookie deal while he was playing borderline MVP level football pretty quickly into that contract. We gave up a ton of draft capital for Wentz (and for Alex Smith and for McNabb and for Boonell and for Brad Johnson etc add infinitum). Wentz cost us slotting last year in the 2nd round, a top 75 pick (our 3rd rounder) and thankfully only our top 80 pick this year (but nearly a top 50 pick if he doesn't get hurt) and it got us next to nothing, and he cost us plenty in salary. At the end of the day, Flynn was expensive for Seattle, but they also were able to trade him to an incompetent Raiders team a year later for a 5th and a conditional future pick, so that they actually netted picks, rather than losing two and dropping down 5 slots in round 2 like we did. Much better management than ours. 

 

Beyond that, though, I agree w/you pretty much on everything. My only quibble is that while I'm overheated on Howell as well, and also view him as an unusual 5th rounder (he was a top 50-60 guy to me period and lasting into the mid-100's was insane to me) the draft capital is real and the history with QB's drafted that late is well and truly horrifying. We should not be operating as if we hit on a franchise QB, we should be operating like we are in perpetual search of one. I am hopeful with Howell, I think his floor is likely an NFL caliber 30th-45th ranked QB like Frerotte, or if we're lucky, Cousins to Cousins-lite productivity. That's not bad for a QB selected that late. 

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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

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I've been extremely busy, so I haven't had a chance to add my opinion to the thread, except to return @Skinsinparadise's jabs about my buddy Jay "the Podcast Guest Because Nobody Will Hire Me For The Real Job I Want" Gruden.

 

Here are my overall QB thoughts, taking into account the following:

 

1. Ron is going to be here whether we want him to be or not because the timing of the sale of the team is going to prevent any significant HC/FO/Coaching Staff change.

2. The new OC is either going to be Ken Zampese or Mike Shula.  This is not the thread for it, but there is no way a young up-and-coming OC is going to take a job where the entire coaching staff is going to be blown out after 2023 anyway, and certainly not with our idiot GM saying they want to run the ball twice for every pass play.  (As you can tell, I've soured on Ron and Martin.  I don't know what Marty does, so I have no opinion on him.)

3. Ron is going to be in a "win now" mode because if he wants to keep his job, he's going to have to, especially with a new owner.  Forget "step forward" next year has to be a Playoffs and win a game season.  

4. I don't think Dan is going to sign off on a huge QB contract with negotiations to sell the team ongoing.  It would be really rare for an outgoing ownership group to tie a new ownership group to any long-term financial decisions.  And to get in front of the inevitable comments, no Bezos can't just tell Dan what he wants before the deal is closed.  It doesn't work that way.

 

So with all that said:

 

1. Bye Bye Scott Turner = Bye Bye Taylor Heinicke.  Under absolutely no scenario should he be allowed to ever walk through the doors of the building again.  His biggest asset was he knew Scott Turner's offense.  Scott's gone.  He needs to go to the Cardinals and compete with McCoy to start next season and keep the seat warm for Murray for 2024.  He needs to go to the highest bidder, and I hope he gets $7m guaranteed at least and is set up for life from a financial perspective.  Good guy.  Bad QB. 

Mclaughlin GIFs | Tenor

 

2. Carson Wentz.  He's totally broken.  Still has the arm.  His mobility is just fine.  Brain is mush.  In an interesting twist, I don't think it was us who broke him.  I think we got him broken.  I will still say it was worth the shot, because it was the best possible option at the time.  But

 

Mclaughlin GIFs | Tenor

 

3. Jimmy G./Derek Carr. I don't think either one comes here.  Mostly because I don't think Dan's going to sign off on the money it would take to get either one of them.  Both are at least $20m+ per year contracts, and with the sale of the team, I don't see Dan making that kind of financial commitment.  We can argue whether we SHOULD get either one, but I don't think either one are viable options, so I'm not going to bother really going down this rabbit hole except to say both would be better than anything we've had on the roster since Kirk "Kurt" Cousins left.  

 

4. Hight Draft Pick on a QB. Now, this is interesting.  The question is going to be who owns the team at the draft, and even if they might have another GM/Advisor in to help Martin/Ron.  This is an unknown.  My guess is a new owner would NOT sanction Ron/Martin trading up for a high-draft pick QB because of the fact both of them might be fired by October.  But that's a guess.  This is the most unknown because the draft almost certainly will be conducted under new ownership, and we don't know what they will want.

 

5. Howell should be given the chance to compete for the starting QB job UNLESS the team signs Tom Brady.  (More on that in a second).  That's all I have to say about that. 

 

5. FAs:

- Tom Brady: If Bezos buys the team, and Tom is still out there, there is a chance Tom might want to come be close to Bezos and Amazon. This would be intriguing, and yeah, I'd take a 46 year old Tom if he wanted to come here, even after the year he had.  If you disagree, just remember what Tiger Woods told Serena Williams: GOAT people do GOAT things.  

- Lamar Jackson: I have to put Lamar on this list because he's technically a FA.  I could ABSOLUTELY see Ron going after Lamar, he's a better clone version of Cam Newton.  But I don't think there's a chance of getting him because of money.  And he's going to be franchised.

- Geno Smith: I think he's going to re-sign in Seattle.  But could be a good stop-gap/competitor to Howell.

- Baker Mayfield: He's such a head case, I'd pass

- Gardner Minshew: To compete with Howell, ok.  He would be a hoot to have around, also.  

- Sam Darnold: He's just bad

- Teddy Bridgewater: No Scott Turner reduces his value.  I wouldn't hate him competing with Howell, though.

- Daniel Jones: I'd take him, but he's probably staying in NY and will cost more than Dan will spend. 

- Case Keenum: We've seen that movie.  No thank you

- Mason Rudolf: No thank you

- Jacoby Brisset: Compete with Howell, sure.

- Joe Flacco: No thank you

- Andy Dalton: Should have got him while Jay was here.  I wouldn't care if he was competing with Howell.  But definition of "meh."

- Mike White: Unless the Jets get Jimmy G. or another veteran QB, it's hard to see him leaving the Jets.  

- Kyle Allen: Please

- Blaine Gabbert: Stinks

- Chase Daniel: Not to compete for a starting job.  

 

At the end of the day (it's night, but also) I think it's Howell, one of the FAs from list 5 above to compete with him, most likely a guy like Geno Smith, Gardner Minshew, Teddy Bridgewater or Jacoby Brisset.  Then they will draft another guy, or sign an UDFA, and that's what we've got for 2023.

 

And with the ownership situation, I'm fine with that.  Ron is most likely a lame duck as well as the rest of the group.  They need to figure out how to be competitive on less.

 

What they REALLY need to do is sign a whole boatload of new OL, a couple backup DBs and LBs.  And franchise tag Payne.  They can push the decision on what to do with him out until there is a new owner and even into next year... But again, that's a different thread.

Edited by Voice_of_Reason
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mistertim

mistertim

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Posted

Neither Carr nor Brady are coming here. That's as much of a pipe dream as it was when people were talking about Wilson or Watson coming here (though on both of those counts we might have actually dodged a bullet).

 

Having our owner and coaching situation so completely up in the air is going to anathema to guys like that who can basically choose their destinations. Sure, we have some talent on our roster, but so do other teams with much more stable situations.

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Est.1974

Est.1974

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Posted
1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Carr should not agree to any trade and make them cut him, so the Raiders don't get ****. They ****ed him over.

 

I'd 100% be all about Carr if it wasn't in a trade.

 

Sadly, doubt Danny is spending any cash this offseason.

Carr actually should be part of a trade agreement. That way his massive contract goes with him.

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