The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, zCommander said:

So Ron and the GM are now going to run the ball more? 2-1 ratio?

 

JP Finlay said he doesn't think they will actually do that.

 

Yeah he also said he doesn't believe it based on what he's seen-heard that they believe it either.  Another beat guy, forgetting whom said the same.  They set up this offense to pass the ball assuming they had the Qb and pass protection to do it.  When it became clear they didn't have the O line and QB, they then went to we want to run the ball drill.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Agree with the rest, but did we run the ball well?  I mean, we ran a lot, but IIRC we had the 5th worst ypc?

 

With that said, we’ve got a solid stable of backs, so if we beef up the oline big time, we should be able to up that efficiency.

 

 

Run blocking rating was rated decently (unlike pass bloicking).  Good running backs although neither is uber explosive but have moments.   Good running game IMO considering context.  The passing game is even worse considering context.

 

When I was at the Browns game and I saw how the Browns stacked the box especially in the 2nd half. I go to my kid, how the heck are they going to run the ball?  Teams would sell out big time to stop the run and often we can run against them anyway.

 

It wasn't exactly a difficult approach to reach that the way to stop this team is to stop the run.  So defenses played to that, stacked boxes to stop running backs, opening up the passing game but we couldn't exploit that. 

 

The Giants in particular sold out to stop the run, yet couldn't stop Robinson anyway.  

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Rex Tomb]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It wasn't exactly a difficult approach to reach that they way to stop this team is to stop the run.  So defenses played to that, stacked boxes to stop running backs, opening up the passing game but we couldn't exploit that. 

I blame Scotty's predictable play calling for that.  Everyone and their brother knew that we were running on first down and probably second down, too.  Also it seemed to depend on the formation: lone back?  Run.  Shotgun: Pass with maybe a RB draw every once in a while.  This season was an absolute travesty given the number of playmakers we had on offense who would routinely go an entire quarter without being targeted.  So glad he's done here.  

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Rex Tomb

[profusion]

In the modern NFL, you need a Christian McCaffrey-type back and a run-capable QB to be able to make that work. Howell might fit the latter, but trying to pound it out with Robinson isn't going to work. You need to be able to do that, but I don't think it can be the basis of your offense. The Titans only got away with it for a number of years because they've had one of the all-time great backs to work with.

 

Given the way the team is currently built, Ron's approach is probably the only possible one. Which, of course, means a massive teardown job once the next HC comes in.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Rex Tomb said:

I blame Scotty's predictable play calling for that.  Everyone and their brother knew that we were running on first down and probably second down, too.  Also it seemed to depend on the formation: lone back?  Run.  Shotgun: Pass with maybe a RB draw every once in a while.  This season was an absolute travesty given the number of playmakers we had on offense who would routinely go an entire quarter without being targeted.  

 

 

They are in the shotgun a ton, its one of the downsides of having a short QB like Heinicke.

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, profusion said:

In the modern NFL, you need a Christian McCaffrey-type back and a run-capable QB to be able to make that work. Howell might fit the latter, but trying to pound it out with Robinson isn't going to work. You need to be able to do that, but I don't think it can be the basis of your offense. The Titans only got away with it for a number of years because they've had one of the all-time great backs to work with.

 

Given the way the team is currently built, Ron's approach is probably the only possible one. Which, of course, means a massive teardown job once the next HC comes in.

 

Robinson with more time to recover from the gun shots, is more explosive than what we've seen and actually has good hands.  He's not fast but he's fast for his size.  4.53 speed, 1.59 -- 10.  had an 8 plus RAS score.  Has one of the best explosive runs stats (15 plus yards plus) in college (22 of them) his last season.  300 receiving yards in his last year.  I don't think we saw peak Robinson last year.

 

I think with a new offensive coordinator and where we don't use the running backs as much as like battering rams, their YPC, etc will jack up.    Neither Taylor or Wentz are good at throwing RB screens IMO.  Taylor takes forever to do it so the defenses clamp on to those passes fast and Carson throws them in the dirt. 

 

I do think we'd benefit from adding a speed back.  But Robinson is more explosive IMO than he looked, you saw flashes of it as the season went on.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to JLC last night on 106.7

 

A.  He covers the Ravens and he's convinced they tag and trade Lamar

B.  Thinks Dan indeed sells if not the first owners meeting in late March then the 2nd, late May.

C.  He likes the people in this FO a lot, he's said before they have a good reputation around the league but with Ron having final say he thinks that dynamic makes it possible for a new owner to can Ron right from the jump.  in other words, Ron might be seen as someone with too much power.  Suggesting he'd be less vulnerable if he was just the coach.

D. Suggested the position coaches have power in personnel moves, Ron listens.  I buy that considering during the draft it came out later than Scott was pushing this player and that player.  So the implication was personnel failings in a spot might fall more on the position coaches than the typical team because they might have had a hand in it.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Renegade7]

If JLC is saying Ron would be safe if he was just a coach, I mean, he wouldn't be the first to have front office powers stripped from him but kept as HC (so hope they keep that as an option if owners do indeed want him to be the HC).

 

They should be able tonwork that out.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

If JLC is saying Ron would be safe if he was just a coach, I mean, he wouldn't be the first to have front office powers stripped from him but kept as HC (so hope they keep that as an option if owners do indeed want him to be the HC).

 

They should be able tonwork that out.

 

He said the power he has makes him vulnerable in this context where he can lose his job.  He didn't flat out said if he was just a head coach he would be safer but that was the clear implication of his point.

 

I thought of it before in this way which is if a new owner approaches Ron and says look I want to keep you as a coach but no longer give you final say -- he'd see that as a demotion and that alone might be the cause of them parting ways.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He said the power he has makes him vulnerable in this context where he can lose his job.  He didn't flat out said if he was just a head coach he would be safer but that was the clear implication of his point.

 

I thought of it before in this way which is if a new owner approaches Ron and says look I want to keep you as a coach but no longer give you final say -- he'd see that as a demotion and that alone might be the cause of them parting ways.

 

It's fair to believe the worst on that one.

 

Him canning Rivera feels like an admission to him being very wrong in his initial approach, especially in context of his known loyalty issues and then seeking outside the organization for Scott's replacement.

 

I'd like to see how that goes to see how much he's changed and been humbled as an indication if that proposal comes his way what he may say.  I'm not buying he says "no" and leaves right now, but see why some might believe he would.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

I don't see TH returning, Rivera moved from him numerous times over the years seemed to begrudgingly would go back to him as starter.

He seems to like stronger armed QB's. This would also lead me to wonder if Fromm will stay. We is a good QB with a small arm 

 

Maybe that is where the confusion is for some here. Taylor has accepted his role as the backup. This is why Ron might still bring him back as the backup and not as the starter. He was the backup last year and this year and had to become the starter when their strong armed QBs went down due to injury.

[Skinsinparadise]

Logan Paulsen on Scott.

 

He basically thought his main weakness was the run game doesn't marry well to the passing game.  Play action wasn't set up well.   The main run play was duo, and the blocking scheme didn't really marry well to play action passing compared to for example SF that marries play action well off their outside zone blocking scheme.

 

3rd down play calling a bit predictible, often out of empty sets that made protection tough. 

 

Sheehan brought in Cooley's take which is play action doesn't work as well out of the shot gun and they were out of the shot gun a ton.

 

Not having good QB play and good pass protection obviously hurt the process. 

 

He thinks he was creative in general, motions, imbalance sets -- on that front he was cutting edge. 

 

But he thinks sometimes there was too much in the pot and it led to a lack of identity

 

In short, if you are going to have a run first type of team, the passing game isn't set up well based off of that unlike the Titans, Atlanta, the Giants, 49ers.

 

Logan has talked in other segments about how good the coaching is for the Giants and in particular how they marry the run game and passing game.

 

Logan was asked about what he'd do at QB.  He said Howell and a veteran like Brissett or Dalton.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

I keep hearing Brissett.  Not as a rumor but as a suggestion, including by Logan.  the more I think about it, the more i like it, along with Howell.   Draft a QB in the mid rounds -- Haener.

 

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Howell

Brissett

Haener

Fromm

 

I'm great with that.

[Chris 44]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Howell

Brissett

Haener

Fromm

 

I'm great with that.

Brissett getting a lot of accolades, makes me wonder if he wants a starting gig as opposed to back up or even camp competition type scenario.

[Warhead36]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Logan Paulsen on Scott.

 

He basically thought his main weakness was the run game doesn't marry well to the passing game.  Play action wasn't set up well.   The main run play was duo, and the blocking scheme didn't really marry well to play action passing compared to for example SF that marries play action well off their outside zone blocking scheme.

 

3rd down play calling a bit predictible, often out of empty sets that made protection tough. 

 

Sheehan brought in Cooley's take which is play action doesn't work as well out of the shot gun and they were out of the shot gun a ton.

 

Not having good QB play and good pass protection obviously hurt the process. 

 

He thinks he was creative in general, motions, imbalance sets -- on that front he was cutting edge. 

 

But he thinks sometimes there was too much in the pot and it led to a lack of identity

 

In short, if you are going to have a run first type of team, the passing game isn't set up well based off of that unlike the Titans, Atlanta, the Giants, 49ers.

 

Logan has talked in other segments about how good the coaching is for the Giants and in particular how they marry the run game and passing game.

 

Logan was asked about what he'd do at QB.  He said Howell and a veteran like Brissett or Dalton.

Yeah that makes sense. Goes with my reasoning of how the offense doesn't really operate like it has any sort of plan. There's no rhythm or fluidity to it. The playcalling is just a randam amalgamation of plays. 

 

I've always used the analogy that our playcalling was kind of like watching my 5 year old nephew paint. Its mostly a mess but every once in a while he puts some random colors together and it looks half decent. 

 

You look at the good offenses. Or even some average ones. There is a..."flow" to their playcalling. Its like boom boom boom. We on the other hand will have like a couple good downfield pass plays back to back and then open with a shotgun draw into a wall for a loss of 1. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Brissett getting a lot of accolades, makes me wonder if he wants a starting gig as opposed to back up or even camp competition type scenario.

 

He's been a journeyman, I doubt any team just hands him a job.  i'd think he'd want to have a 50-50 shot at it which I think he'd see this as an opportunity.

[Warhead36]

The vet QB we acquire will be determined by the OC. Usually coaches want guys that know their systems and that they're comfortable with.

[Renegade7]

19 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The vet QB we acquire will be determined by the OC. Usually coaches want guys that know their systems and that they're comfortable with.

 

Right...why I'm waiting to see who new OC says they want in the QB room instead of trying jump ahead of them.

 

Telling them who's going to be in their QB could be a turn-off to some candidates that want more say over it.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Renegade7

[Command The 414]

21 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The vet QB we acquire will be determined by the OC. Usually coaches want guys that know their systems and that they're comfortable with.

Ala ….Frank Reich and he will bring Nick Foles in

Edited January 11, 2023 by ashlynskins

[mistertim]

56 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Maybe that is where the confusion is for some here. Taylor has accepted his role as the backup. This is why Ron might still bring him back as the backup and not as the starter. He was the backup last year and this year and had to become the starter when their strong armed QBs went down due to injury.

 

But Heinicke's biggest attribute was his familiarity with Turner's scheme. Now he doesn't have that which will likely have a major impact on whether they bring him back.

[veteranskinsfan]

If Heinke leaves via free agency he will look to see where Turner lands.  Or Turner could sit out a year since we are still paying him.  Another bad decision

by Ron to give him a 3 year contract.

[KDawg]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Right...why I'm waiting to see who new OC says they want in the QB room instead of trying jump ahead of them.

 

Telling them who's going to be in their QB could be a turn-off to some candidates that want more say over it.

Our speculation/theories/thought processes have zero impact on who the team signs. We’re just talking. But I respect the overall approach.

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

But Heinicke's biggest attribute was his familiarity with Turner's scheme. Now he doesn't have that which will likely have a major impact on whether they bring him back.

I wish I could tell you that I think that is going to have an impact. I’m hoping the new OC doesn’t just go along with it for the sake of going along with it.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Our speculation/theories/thought processes have zero impact on who the team signs. We’re just talking. But I respect the overall approach.

 

 

Keim says, it depends.  The FO apparently does care about what I, you and @Koolblue13 are thinking and a few others here, but otherwise they discard a lot of what they read on the QB thread, sometimes they even do the opposite out of spite. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I wish I could tell you that I think that is going to have an impact. I’m hoping the new OC doesn’t just go along with it for the sake of going along with it.

 

Yeah, though it does sound like Turner was one of Heinicke's main advocates, I guess because he knew the system well. IIRC he was reportedly the one who suggested going out and grabbing him in the first place. I have a feeling Ron isn't quite so bullish on him.

 

But that's just my rando take without anything specific to back it up. Maybe Ron does like Heinicke enough to bring him back regardless, but I'd be sort of surprised if he did that prior to deciding on a new OC.