Next Day Thread: Buffalo vs. Landover Junior Varsity

[Warhead36]

I still believe in Young. He's just used to dominating and right now he isn't but he'll figure it out. I'll always put my money on talent. You don't get named to the NFL top 100 after just one year for nothing. He's still the last guy I'd get rid of.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

My emotions from wasting another beautiful Sunday watching this defense get bulldozed led me to want Del Rio's head on a stake.  Basically, just wanting blood.  My confidence in him being able to to flip a switch and stop the bleeding is still pretty low.  My concern currently is that we simply don't have the horses on the roster.  Do we have any examples of a defense playing as poorly as this one for 3 weeks that all the sudden turns it around to be among the top units in the league?  And if so, did they have a murderers row of quarterbacks on the schedule?

 

In reference to the Chase Young/Del Rio drama being discussed, Chase addressed the sideline shouting in the post game presser.  He said that he was telling Del Rio that if anyone was BS'ing in practice, let him know, because he'll address it.  Basically just pissed off that the defense looks unprepared and lost.  Perhaps there is more to it than that, but sounded plausible to me.

[KDawg]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My emotions from wasting another beautiful Sunday watching this defense get bulldozed led me to want Del Rio's head on a stake.  Basically, just wanting blood.  My confidence in him being able to to flip a switch and stop the bleeding is still pretty low.  My concern currently is that we simply don't have the horses on the roster.  Do we have any examples of a defense playing as poorly as this one for 3 weeks that all the sudden turns it around to be among the top units in the league?  And if so, did they have a murderers row of quarterbacks on the schedule?

 

In reference to the Chase Young/Del Rio drama being discussed, Chase addressed the sideline shouting in the post game presser.  He said that he was telling Del Rio that if anyone was BS'ing in practice, let him know, because he'll address it.  Basically just pissed off that the defense looks unprepared and lost.  Perhaps there is more to it than that, but sounded plausible to me.

Talking about practice during the game is an interesting approach.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

31 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Talking about practice during the game is an interesting approach.

I get how it sounds.

 

I was thinking about it from the perspective of just being pissed about getting embarrassed and equating it to guys BSing during the week. I’m certain there is more to it than he alluded to in the presser.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

On this play early in the game, the Bills send receiver Stefon Diggs down the field on a go route while the running back works out to the flat underneath him. From the far side, the tight end runs a deep over. It’s not too complex of a route combination, but Washington fails to pick it up. Cornerback William Jackson initially stays with Diggs but quickly peels off to take the running back in the flat, but linebacker Jon Bostic was already on his way out there. Perhaps Jackson assumed he had Kam Curl over the top to take over Diggs’ route, but Curl was focused on the tight end on the deep over. This leaves Diggs running wide open down the sideline. Washington’s secondary is only bailed out by some pressure from Chase Young and Daron Payne forcing quarterback Josh Allen to miss his throw.

Most likely, Jackson was meant to stay with Diggs down the field and peeled off because he either thought the throw was going to the flat or because he got the wrong call. Without knowing the call, it’s impossible to say for sure, but regardless of who was at fault, it was a significant coverage bust, which is something that has become a weekly occurrence for Washington.

That kind of bust typically comes from communication issues in the secondary, with players not receiving the correct calls or confirming the call when unsure. This was more apparent of an issue as the game went on.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Llevron]

They dont know the defense 

[goskins10]

Not going to keep on as it's ok to disagree. ANd honestly i get where you are coming form. I am usually the one making your argument 🙂  But again, for me there are some differences. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree to an extent.   That's why I said "old school" Dan.  Fired Norv. Seemed like he wanted to fire Nolan.   But actually it sort of helps make my point in that it feels reactionary even by Dan's standards.   Maybe Steinnbrenner is the better analogy?  

 

Nice try but it does not make your point at all 🙂  The fact is Dan has never been reactionary past that very first firing. And he just never liked Norv from the start. In fact, he has stuck with people way too long - Vinnie, Bruce, Jay, (although I got it), was wiling to keep some others but they left. So this would be anti Dan - at least from my point of view. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

His track record is good enough for me.   I can't blame him for the years out of football and in his first year back his defense ranked #2.

 

 Like you said i am a talent > coaching guy but I value both.  I agree with you on many subjects.  On this one we are a mile apart, I think its actually ridiculous to even consider canning him now (but that's me) unless there is some subplot story I don't know of.  If the defense stinks this season, yeah maybe when the season is over but not now or anytime soon this season

 

.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/one-key-thing-jack-del-rio-has-past-redskins-defensive-coordinators-didnt

 

In his one season as D.C. for the Panthers back in 2002, Del Rio's group finished 2nd in yards allowed and 5th in points. Then, in that position with Denver during a three-year run from 2012 to 2014, he saw his players finish 2nd, 19th and 3rd in yards allowed and 4th, 22nd and 16th in points allowed. 

In between those two stints, he was head coach of the Jaguars for nearly a decade. Jacksonville ended up in the top-third of the league in one of those two crucial areas plenty of times when he was at the helm there as well.

Now feels like a good time to note Washington hasn't found itself in the top-five in yards or points since 2008.

 

That track record is a major difference from the last three guys to call the shots on defense for the Burgundy and Gold in Greg Manusky, Joe Barry — who literally oversaw the worst defense in the league TWICE in his two seasons as coordinator before joining the Redskins — and Jim Haslett. 

 

Sorry but what he did a decade or so ago only gets you in the door. After that you have to produce. And fair enough, he did that last year. But this D is beyond just a step back. It is a complete and utter disaster in every phase. And not sure I would be excited about 19th in yds and 22nd in pts in 2013 - as I said, 2 good 1 bad season. And 2014 they were 16th in pts! 

 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I hear you.  Rivera basically said this morning what i think when it comes to games like Sunday.  It's about how you react.  i want to see how they react.  It's genuinely the last thing that runs through my mind early in the season if a unit is shown up to fire that coach.  Instead, I am very curious to see how they respond.

 

I want to see how the fat man responds after the heart attack versus writing the fat man off after the heart attack.  if the fat man stuffs himself with donuts after the heart attack, then my concern level skyrockets.  Right now on a scale of 0-10 my desire to fire Del Rio is at a dead 0.  But if the defense flags throughout the season, then yeah i'd be open to it, and will climb game to game but right now my feelings on it are totally flat. 

 

I said the same thing after the Giants game. He had 10 days to make adjustments. I did not expect to see miracles. I did expect to see something different. Fair enough that I am no coach and do not have film or even time to review the film if I had it to verify, but it looked to my very uneducated eyes they made zero changes. Buf did nothing special or exotic. They had the same game plan the Giants and Chargers did - work the middle of the field with quicks hitters and add in some quick outs until the LBs and Ss get too close and get in behind them. And they just played catch all day. And Allen connected on a couple of those completely broken coverages, the score could have easily been 60 unless they jsut stop playing hard.  

 

Let me finish with this. Just like you said if it keeps up this way you may come closer to ready to get rid of him. I will go the other way. If the D starts to play better - just needs to show signs of improvement and making positive adjustments, I will come off the ledge from wanting him gone. 

 

Last but not least, as a fan I reserve the right at all times to be completely irrational. So there is that....  

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

The performance thus far from this Defense has been disheartening.  Not what I expected at all. We always seem to really really have to manage our expectations with this team. Sucky start but still a long way to go. I’m not abandoning ship just yet. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by COWBOY-KILLA-

[Skinsinparadise]

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Nice try but it does not make your point at all 🙂  The fact is Dan has never been reactionary past that very first firing. And he just never liked Norv from the start. In fact, he has stuck with people way too long - Vinnie, Bruce, Jay, (although I got it), was wiling to keep some others but they left. So this would be anti Dan - at least from my point of view. 

 

 

Dan behind the scenes has a reputation for being impatient.  i know we can agree on that?      I recall even Bruce (don't recall if that was a recount story from a reporter or from Bruce himself but i recall hearing of it)  joking soon after Scot was hired that he told Dan can he be patient with this?  Rivera referred to it during his own hire about how Dan is impatient but so is he. 

 

Yes, Dan isn't personally firing assistant coaches.  But i am sticking with the idea of it feels impatient and Dan is impatient.  But yeah to give props to Dan he doesn't personally fire assistant coaches. He's not that crazy.  So i am wrong to suggest otherwise.  I did know that but I wanted to tag the impatience as feeling like Dan. 

 

But if this has turned into a debate about Dan with coaches and I am giving him too hard of a time on it, I'll back off.  That's not my intention with that dig at Dan.  My intention was he's known as an emotional-reactionary guy.  Yeah his pals tend to survive his purges.  But that office has had plenty of turnover.  And strange things happen like Dan supposedly interviewing defensive coordinators like Bowles and Gregg while Jay and Manusky were still coaching.

 

I thought though correcting myself and saying Steinbrenner, was a good save?      I didn't double down in my response back and say Dan fires assistant coaches.  But Steinbrenner yes would fire managers in season and sometimes early in the season.  

 

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Sorry but what he did a decade or so ago only gets you in the door.

 

They were #2 last year.   The three years where the Raiders defenses was meh as far as yards they were still 12th in points and 2nd in points, in 2 of those 3 seasons, not bad.   8 top 10 defenses.  10 top 12 defenses.  You can't sell me against his pedigree, its more than good.    

 

If I thought he had a Haslett or Manusky track record i'd be much easier to convince.  I don't recall anyone ripping the hire when it happened based on his track record, although maybe I am forgetting a person or two?

 

 

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I said the same thing after the Giants game. He had 10 days to make adjustments. I did not expect to see miracles. I did expect to see something different. Fair enough that I am no coach and do not have film or even time to review the film if I had it to verify, but it looked to my very uneducated eyes they made zero changes.

 

to go from a defense that was supposedly about winning with a four man defensive front, with 7 in coverage to leading the league in blitzes after the first two games is one heck of a departure.  I studied a little his blitzes last year and saw a lot of double A blitzes, and rushes generally from the MLBs.  Wondered about why not more blitzes coming from the seconday.  This season, we saw a sack from Fuller, and almost got one from Curl.  I haven't sat down and studied his scheme this year but it just doesn't give me the vibe that the dude is stubbornly just sticking to some plan he won't change.   

 

I get that the idea is the results are the same so they must be doing exactly the same thing.  It's possible that its so but my gut based on what I've seen is that its not the issue.  Heck in my job if things aren't going well, I tend to mix it up, mixing it up doesn't though guarantee improvement. 

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Let me finish with this. Just like you said if it keeps up this way you may come closer to ready to get rid of him. I will go the other way. If the D starts to play better - just needs to show signs of improvement and making positive adjustments, I will come off the ledge from wanting him gone. 

 

 

 

 

As for as my comment to get rid of him.  That was just me being polite to some of the people who I often agree with but I disagree on this.  Saying my feeling on firing Del Rio is a 0 on a scale of 0-10 which I said in that same post, I think sums up my feeling well.  If people weren't arguing for it here, it frankly it wouldn't have even crossed my mind.

 

For me to buy into firing him, things would have to not improve.  And even if that happened, I'd give him some rope.  it wouldn't be after next week or the week after.  I am not a fire a coach in mid-season kind of guy unless I had a beef with said coach from the previous season but that's not the case here for me. 

 

47 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Last but not least, as a fan I reserve the right at all times to be completely irrational. So there is that....  

 

No doubt.  I vented plenty during the game thread.  Emotion = caring.  Sadly, this fan base is losing people because they are apathetic.  So I got no beef with anyone here including you for feeling whatever you feel about it.  Everyone obviously is entitled.   I am just explaning my feeling.  And you got me who is right or wrong.  Will see it play out.

 

For me i didn't see the Giants game as the kicker for them to shape up or ship out.  I said it previoiusly, this team didn't seem shaken by the Giants game I gather because they won.  I didn't see that as rock bottom by a long shot.  Now, i do think they truly hit that skid.  So I want to see how they respond.  

 

Going with a Rocky 3 analogy, Mr. T. beating up Rocky wasn't the Giants game.  Rocky stole a victory there.  No angst.  No soul searching.  A victory can cloud many things. The Mr. T beat up game IMO was the Bills game.  So I want to see how Rocky performs now.  I am not throwing in the towel before the rematch.  To me the rematch is coming.  I want to see how they respond. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

To the point below.  A thought I shared and others did too before the draft was how good Parsons was as a pass rusher.   I wasn't as big on Zaven Collins as some but I also really liked him as a pass rusher.  But I also did like Jamin as a pass rusher too albeit not as much as the other two on that front.  Kentucky didn't rush him much but when he did he showed really good burst and showed good flashes.   One of his coaches from Kentucky said on a podcast that they considered early in his career to play him at edge. 

 

It's not that i'd convert Jamin like Dallas might do with Parsons (who played edge in HS and rushed plenty at Penn State).  But I'd send him after the QB some.  I noticed his snaps were almost identical to Bostic against Buffalo so they are gradually building up his reps.  I'd throw him to the fire a bit more on blitzes.  Parsons didn't always look comfortable in his assignments at LB in game 1 but he looks really comfortable charging after the QB.  I don't think Jamin is in Parson's class as a pass rusher.  But I do like his potential on that front.  I've seen enough of Bostic and Holcomb on blitzes to be convinced they aren't hot at it. 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[moondog]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To the point below.  A thought I shared and others did too before the draft was how good Parsons was as a pass rusher.   I wasn't as big on Zaven Collins as some but I also really liked him as a pass rusher.  But I also did like Jamin as a pass rusher too albeit not as much as the other two on that front.  Kentucky didn't rush him much but when he did he showed really good burst and showed good flashes.   One of his coaches from Kentucky said on a podcast that they considered early in his career to play him at edge. 

 

It's not that i'd convert Jamin like Dallas might do with Parsons (who played edge in HS and rushed plenty at Penn State).  But I'd send him after the QB some.  I noticed his snaps were almost identical to Bostic against Buffalo so they are gradually building up his reps.  I'd throw him to the fire a bit more on blitzes.  Parsons didn't always look comfortable in his assignments at LB in game 1 but he looks really comfortable charging after the QB.  I don't think Jamin is in Parson's class as a pass rusher.  But I do like his potential on that front.  I've seen enough of Bostic and Holcomb on blitzes to be convinced they aren't hot at it. 

 

 

 

For the life of me I have no idea why jamin isn’t playing 80%+ of the snaps. I don’t care how smart Bostic is pre snap. He’s garbage. Jamin at least flashes when he is in and has made some really nice plays. I can’t think of a single play this year where I was like hey good job Bostic. Not one. Davis being on the field not just more but pretty much all the time would be a start for me. 
 

Not seeing Collins out there would be another good step. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Well, the good news is Hopkins redeemed himself.

How often does a Kicker receive his own kickoff, which then leads to a TD.

That's a positive. I'll take anything positive.

I refuse to be beaten down.

Especially at 1-2, and Fourteen games to go.

[Koolblue13]

Bostic is not the presnap guy to get people aligned. 

 

Holcomb is. He has the green dot. We are all wrong about that.

 

Bostic is just a coach, still playing. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Holcomb in coverage here clip by clip

 

 

[86 Snyder]

When viewing the above clip, please remember that Zach Moss is a plodder with hardly a speck of athletic ability.

[Digger]

The new team name should be something that strikes fear in one's heart.  I propose the "Third Downs"... oh, that only strikes fear in our heart's?... my bad

[Wildbunny]

32 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Well, the good news is Hopkins redeemed himself.

How often does a Kicker receive his own kickoff, which then leads to a TD.

That's a positive. I'll take anything positive.

I refuse to be beaten down.

Especially at 1-2, and Fourteen games to go.

Interesting fact,

 

Hopkins recovered his own kick off.

Taylor Heinicke made a reception of his own pass.

 

How can those two rare facts happen in the same game from the same team?

[ExoDus84]

Bostic and Collins: "Can't give up a 3rd down conversion if we blow our assignments on first and second instead..."

 

 

[justice98]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I think I wouldn't get any work done if I had ESPN Stats and Info in my back pocket.  I'd just be looking up random stuff all day. lol  

[IrepDC]

55 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Holcomb in coverage here clip by clip

 

 

As bad as this is, you skipped the part where the guy Holcomb was covering literally tripped and fell down before beating him for this TD. That was nice of you.

[Malapropismic Depository]

45 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Interesting fact,

 

Hopkins recovered his own kick off.

Taylor Heinicke made a reception of his own pass.

 

How can those two rare facts happen in the same game from the same team?

 

If you were given just those 2 facts about a game, probably most people would guess, that with such good fortune like that, that that team would have won the game.

And yet another anomaly ; I used the word "that", three consecutive words in a row

[ODU AGGIE]

OK, I'm posting this after reading only the first three pages, so if someone has subsequent to those pages already addressed my comment, sorry about that. I kept reading about this defensive player and that defensive player, bad LB play, sucky secondary, overrated D-line, no edge rush, etc. It seems to me that the elephant in the room is being totally ignored. If the D is just not getting the job done despite what are supposed to be quality personnel, then you have to look somewhere else, and that would be the defensive coordinator. This is especially frustrating when the head coach is also a defensive specialist and was the defensive coordinator for a Bears team that went to the Super Bowl. Ron has to either motivate JDR to get more creative and better utilize the talent he has, or he has to replace him. JDR is not getting the job done.

[Rex Tomb]

11 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

OK, I'm posting this after reading only the first three pages, so if someone has subsequent to those pages already addressed my comment, sorry about that. I kept reading about this defensive player and that defensive player, bad LB play, sucky secondary, overrated D-line, no edge rush, etc. It seems to me that the elephant in the room is being totally ignored. If the D is just not getting the job done despite what are supposed to be quality personnel, then you have to look somewhere else, and that would be the defensive coordinator. This is especially frustrating when the head coach is also a defensive specialist and was the defensive coordinator for a Bears team that went to the Super Bowl. Ron has to either motivate JDR to get more creative and better utilize the talent he has, or he has to replace him. JDR is not getting the job done.

Oh, that has been discussed in great detail in the Jack Del Rio thread.  I'm in agreement with you though.  In my mind, JDR has until the bye to get this turned around or he's gone.  It's absolutely pathetic what our defense has become this season and doesn't give our offense any chance in making strides toward being any good.  TH was definitely pressing on Sunday when he threw those two picks - and yes, there were two turnovers on our first two offensive drives - but man the defense just couldn't get off the field.  This bears out in the stats of plays - how many plays the opposing offense is running vs. us is mind-boggling.  We can't get off the damn field.  

[KDawg]

Whoever decided our backers were good should be in serious jeopardy. If it wasn’t Del Rio he’s been handicapped.