The Official ES 2021 Free Agency Thread / Tracker Fitzpatrick, Curtis Samuel, William Jackson, LB Mayo, C Larsen WR Humphries, CB D. Roberts, KR D. Carter , LT Charles Leno, S Bobby McCain signed

[goskins10]

 

Some thoughts after reading the last 20 pages or so: 

 

1. Last year Moses was finally healthy and he had exactly 1 false start and 2 holdings. In fact Montez Sweat was a penalty machine - 10 penalties - and no one has ever complained abotu that. 

2. The issue with Moses is not just the CAP, its that while yes he started all 16 gms, he played injured to the point of not being effective. I give him credit for gutting it out. But honestly had he been a little more careful and sat out a few games, he could have healed faster and been more productive sooner. 

3. I think people are forgetting also there was some discussion from him about retiring last year. I would be surprised if that didn't resonate with Ron and make him decide Moses needed to be moved. 

4. So many have complained we keep players past their prime and are too late to replace them, yet here we are doing exactly that and there is a lot complaining - or at least questioning the process. You can't wait till he is total **** to replace him. Right now is the best time. Also, they have confidence in their ability to coach the players they have. Last year would suggest they are correct. That line played the best of any o-line in a long time. 

5. Releasing him now is also a sign of good faith to him as a person and a player. If they hold him too long it makes it harder for him to find a home. They are confident in the replacements but also respectful of him. This is important as the team moves forward with some more difficult decisions. Other players need to know they will be treated fairly even if they are on the way out. 

6. I see Scherff brought up in terms of $18M vs. $8M - Moses is not close to the level player Scherff is. More importantly, one of the few miscalculations I think Ron and team made is that they could get Brandon signed early. He refused a contract that if reports are correct would have made him the highest paid G in the NFL. He turned it down. So you make due and move on. They are stuck with the $18M unless they can negotiate a LTD (they still have until mid July, so this is not over at $18M) or trade him. I see trading him harder to do since a new team would have to give him a new contract. It's amazing how much players want to stay where they are at - until they can get more money elsewhere. He is gone either this year or next. Getting other players playing time is critical to help that transition. Moving Moses helps that. 

 

They have a lot of very good players with a great amount of versatility. It says something when last year's starters at both LT and RT are seen as expendable. This is not a mistake or a knee jerk reaction. This FO is very calculated. In the end I like the move, a lot. I like Moses. Love his grit and tenacity. And despite having a few years of bad penalties, he was not that bad and last year really put it together. But it's time to move on. He has been beat up pretty badly, is 30, and talked about retirement. Let's find a line that can be an anchor for several years to come. 

 

[KillBill26]

5 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

4. So many have complained we keep players past their prime and are too late to replace them, yet here we are doing exactly that and there is a lot complaining - or at least questioning the process. You can't wait till he is total **** to replace him. Right now is the best time. Also, they have confidence in their ability to coach the players they have. Last year would suggest they are correct. That line played the best of any o-line in a long time. 

 

Unless Moses is complaining about his contract situation behind the scenes, I am against parting ways with Moses right now.  

 

You are right in terms of there being a good time to part with talent.  If we were getting a good return in a trade, I'd be for all for moving on from Moses, but looks like we will be lucky to get a late rounder.  Also, if Moses is gone, that allows us to keep...wait for it....  GERON CHRISTIAN!   WOO HOO!!  And considering Leno and Lucas (and christian) are all on expiring contracts, it's not as if we have a solid succession plan in place.  We do have good depth at the moment, but that depth will completely evaporate after this season.  I just don't see Moses cap numbers being too much to force our hand this early, before a long term succession plan is in place.   I hope cosmi is our LT of the future, but our RT of the future is unknown at the moment.  I'd rather wait until we have a succession plan in place before we prematurely cut Moses.  Not to mention, we will probably not be big players in FA the next couple of seasons as our focus will be resigning our young talent, so we also punt on a future midround comp pick.

[skinny21]

39 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I hope they're not planning to go on a FA spending spree for big names next offseason.  It's clear we're letting Scherff walk, and we'd be foolish to lose our 3rd round comp pick for him leaving.  Maybe the plan is to sign a few mid-tier and lower-tier guys and extend our own, while still having a good amount of cap space to roll over to 2023, which I think makes the most sense.

Certainly feels like we should be moving toward comp pick acquisitions next year and beyond while we focus our cap on re-signing our own, rather than higher priced FAs.  Especially as we need to draft a young qb - picking up a big qb contract will screw over our chances of keeping our dline (and Terry, etc).  We probably re-sign Fitzpatrick though...

Controversial, but letting Logan walk might net us a 3rd.  Scherff would get us a 3rd.  If the team performs well, and a lot of the guys have good seasons, I wonder if we have a chance at comp picks for Leno, McCain, Collins, Cam Sims, and Humphries?  I doubt McKissick or our other FAs gets us anything, and some other cheaper signings might cancel most of the ones I mentioned.  We’d have to fill holes at T, G, TE, and FS most likely...

24 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Not Matt. Hell to naw. He's going to be a pro bowler this year. Or at least play like one.

Forgetting the specific trade (terrible idea IMO), I could see moving Io after this year if he is relatively healthy.  Sell high.  Add picks as we can to alleviate a trade up for qb and to keep the pipeline rolling.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@skinny21 only correction is Collins won't qualify for a comp. pick if we cut him.

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

Unless Moses is complaining about his contract situation behind the scenes, I am against parting ways with Moses right now.  

 

You are right in terms of there being a good time to part with talent.  If we were getting a good return in a trade, I'd be for all for moving on from Moses, but looks like we will be lucky to get a late rounder.  Also, if Moses is gone, that allows us to keep...wait for it....  GERON CHRISTIAN!   WOO HOO!!  And considering Leno and Lucas (and christian) are all on expiring contracts, it's not as if we have a solid succession plan in place.  We do have good depth at the moment, but that depth will completely evaporate after this season.  I just don't see Moses cap numbers being too much to force our hand this early, before a long term succession plan is in place.   I hope cosmi is our LT of the future, but our RT of the future is unknown at the moment.  I'd rather wait until we have a succession plan in place before we prematurely cut Moses.  Not to mention, we will probably not be big players in FA the next couple of seasons as our focus will be resigning our young talent, so we also punt on a future midround comp pick.

 

Not trying to be an ass, but just because you do not see the succession plan, does not mean they don't have one. They clearly have one, but they are not going to announce every detail of their plans to the entire world. The coaches showed they can coach gus up. That oline last year looked like a major weakness going into the season turned out to be really solid. They did a very good job a pass blocking for a bunch of average to below average QBs (Alex is a nice story but he was not playing at a high level, jsut well enough. He only had one leg most of the time) 

 

And I believe you are over simplifying the status. It will not "completely evaporate". They can resign guys they like and there is also next year's draft and another crop of FAs. Also, just because they let Moses go doesn't mean they plan to keep Christian. But if he makes the team, it's becasue they think he has earned it. He is not being given a free ride by anyone. Lucas can play both LT and RT and was quite adequate last year. Leno is clearly a solid starter at LT. Cosmi will start at RT. He should progress to LT but if not, you still have Lucas and Leno - who can be resigned. Just because it's a 1 yr deal now does not mean it stays that way. They could even extend him part way through the season.

 

I will agree I would have liked to see them maybe get something for him. But this is how the NFL is right now. We jsut signed a solid starting LT who was released by their former team. WE paid nothing for them. Based on that, what is the market for a RT that let's be honest has been pretty beaten up over the years. 

 

This is the right move at the right time. I am glad to see the team be more decisive. Make the call and make it happen. Not all the moves will work out. But they have a plan and hey are working the plan. Nice to see for a change. 

 

 

 

 

[skinny21]

8 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@skinny21 only correction is Collins won't qualify for a comp. pick if we cut him.

Brain fart on my part, good catch.

 

@KillBill26 The succession plan is my concern as well.  I don’t mind losing Moses for this year, but needing both a starting tackle and swing tackle next year when our assets will likely be needed to move up for a qb and to re-sign our big names... don’t love it.

With that said, the prospect of Moses getting demoted, the lack of guaranteed money (an issue I have a general problem with), and his desire for one more pay day (probably) put him and the team at odds with each other.

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Brain fart on my part, good catch.

 

@KillBill26 The succession plan is my concern as well.  I don’t mind losing Moses for this year, but needing both a starting tackle and swing tackle next year when our assets will likely be needed to move up for a qb and to re-sign our big names... don’t love it.

 

 

I'm not as concerned about the succession plan. If Cosmi balls out at RT and switches to LT, you just need to replace him at RT. You could do that by extending Lucas and drafting a player for long-term fill-in. 

 

Or Cosmi plays well at RT and Leno or Lucas ball out at LT and you work to extent one of them while drafting another OT.

 

We just signed a quality starting LT for $5m 2 weeks after the draft. I'm not too too concerned about our future situation at those two positions as I trust it'll be worked out.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Cosmi is going to make Orlando Pace look like Wayne Geisinger.

[skinny21]

Just now, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

I'm not as concerned about the succession plan. If Cosmi balls out at RT and switches to LT, you just need to replace him at RT. You could do that by extending Lucas and drafting a player for long-term fill-in. 

 

Or Cosmi plays well at RT and Leno or Lucas ball out at LT and you work to extent one of them while drafting another OT.

 

We just signed a quality starting LT for $5m 2 weeks after the draft. I'm not too too concerned about our future situation at those two positions as I trust it'll be worked out.

Yeah, it’s not like it’s a disaster or anything, but it opens up some question marks and maybe flies in the face of oline continuity.  We were in a bit of a fortunate position with Lucas/Moses/Cosmi alleviating the need for a LT, and Leno somewhat falling in our laps, but not too long ago we were talking about Villanueva (sp) being the only real option for us.  Usually slim pickings (and competition) for teams looking for a starting caliber LT.

 

As to drafting a LT, if we wind up trading up for a qb, that possibility could be out the window, not to mention the idea of forcing a pick or us (hopefully) drafting late in the 1st leaving us in the lurch.

 

Really though, my stance is it would have been nice to have Moses around and figure things out down the road a bit, but I can see/understand why that’s not in the cards.  Is what it is, I don’t hold any blame over the FO, just bummed it worked out this way.

[Koolblue13]

We had to know this was the plan when we drafted a OT in the second and sign a starting OT.

 

Knowing Moses wanted to quit going into last season and siding publicly with Trent, there's no way that he was going to be in our plan.

[HigSkin]

Makes some sense...

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

2 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Makes some sense...

 

 

How could they know this after two days by watching footwork drills and blocking drills without pads? That would be crazy projection on the teams behalf lol. 

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

How could they know this after two days by watching footwork drills and blocking drills without pads? That would be crazy projection on the teams behalf lol. 

 

 

You mean not including watching and rewatching and rewatching hours and hours of video, watching him in person during his college games? The last two days was not discovery - it was validation. Doesn't take long for professionals to know. 

 

In Ron I trust!!  

Edited May 19, 2021 by goskins10

[UK Skins]

The point somewhere above about extending players during the season is a good one. If we like what we see from McCain, Leno, Fitzmagic etc. what's to stop us from making those one year deals longer. Especially if there is a better idea how the salary cap will play out for the following season and we have an idea of fair market value.

[joeken24]

13 hours ago, terpfan said:

If this wasn’t meant to leak then we ****ed up majorly. Given how tight lipped the organization has been since Rivera has been here I don’t believe that’s likely. 
 

Edited to added you don’t “give someone permission to seek a trade” and not expect it will get out. 

Dude. Leaks come from agents. If talks are going on with Morgan, his agent is involved. As long as players have agents, leaks will exist.  IMO, anytime Ian has a report, its from an agent. He doesn't have the connections in the building anymore. And if he got it before Keim, he definitely got from Moses' agent or someone in the agency. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by joeken24
add

[terpfan]

1 minute ago, joeken24 said:

Dude. Leaks come from agents. If talks are going on with Morgan, his agent is involved. As long as players have agents, leaks will exist. 

I know. And I’m sure the team knows that too. That’s why edited my post to add that I don’t really see any way they didn’t expect this to leak, which implies to me they weren’t worried about hurting their leverage because they don’t think he has much trade value anyway. 

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We had to know this was the plan when we drafted a OT in the second and sign a starting OT.

 

Knowing Moses wanted to quit going into last season and siding publicly with Trent, there's no way that he was going to be in our plan.

 

Agree.   I forgot the coach who said it and what the exact saying was but it was something to the effect that once a player professes they thought about retiring, the retirement is typically coming sooner than later.  Speaking about Trent its quite the juxtaposition to have Trent talking about playing up to 40 with Moses saying he seriously considered retiring before last year at 29. 

 

So I could see Ron thinking Moses isn't the future. 

 

I see some on twitter and call radio who don't like the move are trashing it on two fronts

 

A.  They are risking the roster by weakening their depth

B.  They have the cap room so this move is meaningless for the cap because we already have the space.

 

As for the depth.  Ron adds Flowers. They are getting back Charles.  They draft Cosmi.  They add Leno.  The talk just a couple of days ago was that they might have a glut on the O line.  Now we got a panic that there isn't enough?  And as for the cap, we got two years in play for Moses.  And the cap rolls over.  So we get basically 17 million in cap savings for two years, yet who cares because we still have cap room to burn this year?  That mindset to me is very live for today Vinny Cerrato like.  Amassing cap space is what we need to do to preserve this nucleus.  It's not a minor deal IMO. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Dude. Leaks come from agents. If talks are going on with Morgan, his agent is involved. As long as players have agents, leaks will exist.  IMO, anytime Ian has a report, its from an agent. He doesn't have the connections in the building anymore. And if he got it before Keim, he definitely got from Moses' agent or someone in the agency. 

 

Yeah the reason why national reporters tend to beat the local ones when it comes to stuff like this -- releases, signings, etc is because the leaks tend to come from the agents.  And the agents tend to be source vehicles for the national reporters in particular. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.   I forgot the coach who said it and what the exact saying was but it was something to the effect that once a player professes they thought about retiring, the retirement is typically coming sooner than later.  Speaking about Trent its quite the juxtaposition to have Trent talking about playing up to 40 with Moses saying he seriously considered retiring before last year at 29. 

 

So I could see Ron thinking Moses isn't the future. 

 

I see some on twitter and call radio who don't like the move are trashing it on two fronts

 

A.  They are risking the roster by weakening their depth

B.  They have the cap room so this move is meaningless for the cap because we already have the space.

 

As for the depth.  Ron adds Flowers. They are getting back Charles.  They draft Cosmi.  They add Leo.  They talk just a couple of days ago that they might have a glut on the O line.  Now ee got a panic that there isn't enough?  And as for the cap, we got two years in play.  And the cap rolls over.  So we get basically 17 million in cap savings for two years, yet who cares because we still have cap room to burn this year?  That mindset to me is very live for today Vinny Cerrato like.  Amassing cap space is what we need to do to preserve this nucleus.  It's not a minor deal IMO. 

 

 

Any player that is not 100% totally head in the game and being part of Thee Team, is a cancer. Only one way to get rid of that. I think that was part of why Kerrigan left and it's why Moses is going. You have to really want it, to be a part of it and we are going to win a lot of games. Extending Allen will be the proof, just like Roullier, that we do keep our own if you really make the team your priority. 

[joeken24]

50 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We had to know this was the plan when we drafted a OT in the second and sign a starting OT.

 

Knowing Moses wanted to quit going into last season and siding publicly with Trent, there's no way that he was going to be in our plan.

I agree in part about the draft pick and FA signing. But I don't think this regime gets into the petty **** like siding with Trent. Bottom line for me is that we are finally seeing football decisions being made (ala picking up good players to compete over youtube phenoms and whatnot). Moses had no competition, Kerrighan had no competition. Whoever was the starter for teams of the past was who we had to watch. When they got hurt or injured, the replacement was a significant drop off (as if that were possible). Now to both of their defense, they were available. But conceptually, this team has always lacked depth. IMO, Moses should compete and earn his starting position.....every year. 

[KillBill26]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Not trying to be an ass, but just because you do not see the succession plan, does not mean they don't have one. They clearly have one, but they are not going to announce every detail of their plans to the entire world. The coaches showed they can coach gus up. That oline last year looked like a major weakness going into the season turned out to be really solid. They did a very good job a pass blocking for a bunch of average to below average QBs (Alex is a nice story but he was not playing at a high level, jsut well enough. He only had one leg most of the time) 

 

And I believe you are over simplifying the status. It will not "completely evaporate". They can resign guys they like and there is also next year's draft and another crop of FAs. Also, just because they let Moses go doesn't mean they plan to keep Christian. But if he makes the team, it's becasue they think he has earned it. He is not being given a free ride by anyone. Lucas can play both LT and RT and was quite adequate last year. Leno is clearly a solid starter at LT. Cosmi will start at RT. He should progress to LT but if not, you still have Lucas and Leno - who can be resigned. Just because it's a 1 yr deal now does not mean it stays that way. They could even extend him part way through the season.

 

I will agree I would have liked to see them maybe get something for him. But this is how the NFL is right now. We jsut signed a solid starting LT who was released by their former team. WE paid nothing for them. Based on that, what is the market for a RT that let's be honest has been pretty beaten up over the years. 

 

This is the right move at the right time. I am glad to see the team be more decisive. Make the call and make it happen. Not all the moves will work out. But they have a plan and hey are working the plan. Nice to see for a change. 

 

 

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.   And I'm not saying this is a disaster or anything, just a move I disagree with.   

 

You're right, I have no clue what their plan is behind the scenes.  And that's a good thing!  But I don't want to bank on so and so getting coached up, or so and so getting resigned.   Someone else had mentioned how we filled LT this year with a good player for only 5 mil, implying that a hole at OT can be easily and reasonably filled.  I disagree.   A hole at OT is a hole at OT.  Finding a quality player on a 1 year deal does nothing for our long term improvement plan.  A fortunate situation falling in our lap in 2020 does not increase the odds of it happening again in the future.

 

Now I realize Moses isn't technically in our long term plan, but as we develop our younger skill players, including a potentially rookie QB next year, I think keeping Moses in the fold would've been the better choice as opposed to cutting bait with him now for a meager return.  But again, I'm not losing any sleep over it, I just disagree with it.

[joeken24]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Any player that is not 100% totally head in the game and being part of Thee Team, is a cancer. Only one way to get rid of that. I think that was part of why Kerrigan left and it's why Moses is going. You have to really want it, to be a part of it and we are going to win a lot of games. Extending Allen will be the proof, just like Roullier, that we do keep our own if you really make the team your priority. 

I don't think Kerrighan and Moses were cancers if you are implying that. That is all.....

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I agree in part about the draft pick and FA signing. But I don't think this regime gets into the petty **** like siding with Trent. Bottom line for me is that we are finally seeing football decisions being made (ala picking up good players to compete over youtube phenoms and whatnot). Moses had no competition, Kerrighan had no competition. Whoever was the starter for teams of the past was who we had to watch. When they got hurt or injured, the replacement was a significant drop off (as if that were possible). Now to both of their defense, they were available. But conceptually, this team has always lacked depth. IMO, Moses should compete and earn his starting position.....every year. 

I don't think the Trent thing was thee thing, but it's an attitude that they just don't want. Especially from a guy talking about quitting football. 

[KDawg]

I don’t think the issue is that he talked about not playing or anything like that. More likely that they just didn’t have him in the long term plans and therefore want to get the young guys reps sooner rather than later and free up cap space to get some extensions done. 
 

Wouldn’t over think it. 

[joeken24]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think the issue is that he talked about not playing or anything like that. More likely that they just didn’t have him in the long term plans and therefore want to get the young guys reps sooner rather than later and free up cap space to get some extensions done. 
 

Wouldn’t over think it. 

I agree. Definitely nothing personal. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think the issue is that he talked about not playing or anything like that. More likely that they just didn’t have him in the long term plans and therefore want to get the young guys reps sooner rather than later and free up cap space to get some extensions done. 
 

Wouldn’t over think it. 

I agree, and it was just the perfect storm of all of it at a time when the money could go to Allen and/or Scherff.