Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CapsSkins]

^It's the right call. I said after the Giants game that Heinicke had earned the right to start thru the bye week and I still believe that.

 

I'm a Heinicke Hiver but we know Taylor is going to have bad games and take some lumps as he learns how to be a starting QB. I think the Bills game was exactly that. It's up to Heinicke to extract the lessons and improve, which I think he's capable of doing, but we'll see.

 

Also let's remember, one of the reasons I'm so high on Taylor as our long-term starter is because he's never going to command $40M a year. The physical limitations put a ceiling on his abilities but also on his cap hit lol - I'm viewing Taylor as a game manager on steroids. A guy who can give you $30-$35M/year quality play for a $20M-$25M a year cap hit. But to do that, he needs to perfect how to play within himself and his limitations. Holding onto the ball in the pocket so he can throw across his body to the 1st read in a tight window against strong winds is not that. Using his legs to get chunks of yards and checking down to move the chains while waiting for the right opportunities to stretch the field is prototypical Heinicke football IMO. That's what I want to see more of. He's not Mahomes, he's like Zero Calorie Lamar.   

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

10 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

That's what I want to see more of. He's not Mahomes, he's like Zero Calorie Lamar.   

 

For me, I don't know about Lamar.    For me he reminds me a lot of Zach Wilson (without the gun of an arm), notwithstanding Zach's struggles thus far or Tony Romo if Tony had more wheels.  He definitely has mobility but IMO his #1 strength is evading pressure and making plays on the move.

 

If I had to bet yes or no, I'd bet yes.  But while I can see the ship making it to shore its also not hard for me to see it crashing against the rocks, too.  I agree though he deserves to play to the bye at least.  Lets see what he's got, etc. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’m all for Heineke playing however long as I’m not interested in seeing Kyle Allen.

 

Just to clarify, love his story, love his moxie, and I’m in no rush to see him on the bench.  But I’m far away from believing he’s ever going to make $20-25M per season and play at $30-35M level.  
 

That said, I’m not even quite sure I believe in that line of thinking.  In that, he will be good enough to be considered a long term starter, but too physically limited to garner the big bucks.  I don’t think there is such a thing.  If you play well enough to be considered a long term starter, you get long term starter money.

 

If you look at the AAV for QB’s, the guys who play well that are at $25M are on older deals, Brady being the exception.  Then it gets cut in basically half for journeyman trying to play well enough to get that long term contract or guys on rookie contracts, that are also trying to play well enough to get extended to a large long term contract.  
 

Bottom line being that all these QBs are looking to play well enough to become both a long term starter and get paid like one too.  There is really no middle ground.

 

You either get your guy via the draft and hope he plays well fast to win one while he’s cheap or you pay a guy and hope your FO is good enough to build a team and manage the cap around the contract.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[mistertim]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me, I don't know about Lamar.    For me he reminds me a lot of Zach Wilson (without the gun of an arm), notwithstanding Zach's struggles thus far or Tony Romo if Tony had more wheels.  He definitely has mobility but IMO his #1 strength is evading pressure and making plays on the move.

 

If I had to bet yes or no, I'd bet yes.  But while I can see the ship making it to shore its also not hard for me to see it crashing against the rocks, too.  I agree though he deserves to play to the bye at least.  Lets see what he's got, etc. 

 

Yeah I can see some Romo in Heinicke. To me his a poor man's Romo. He doesn't have Romo's size or arm but he has Romo's slipperiness in the pocket. Though he's got better top end wheels than Romo did.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Also let's remember, one of the reasons I'm so high on Taylor as our long-term starter is because he's never going to command $40M a year. 

 

Way too early to be talking money, but if we already ready to cheapskate him, how am I not to expect the Cousins fiasco all over again?  Its an overpaid position, if he's winning and putting up numbers, who are we to say "ya but you have weak arm strength, so you won't get paid what similar producing QBs get"?  This is one of my biggest problems with committing to him despite his limitations, the market is the market, we jus learned that the hard way.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Way too early to be talking money, but if we already ready to cheapskate him, how am I not to expect the Cousins fiasco all over again?  Its an overpaid position, if he's winning and putting up numbers, who are we to say "ya but you have weak arm strength, so you won't get paid what similar producing QBs get"?  This is one of my biggest problems with committing to him despite his limitations, the market is the market, we jus learned that the hard way.

This aligns with what i was saying above, though I stopped myself from bringing Cousins into it 🤣.  But yeah, the only way I see the team getting Heineke at a bargain price is to do so in the very near future, which is obviously a huge gamble they wouldn't take.  Should he actually play lights out and cement himself as the future of the position here, he'll get expensive just like everyone else, and his agent won't be hearing anything about his lack of arm strength and the throws he can't make.

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This aligns with what i was saying above, though I stopped myself from bringing Cousins into it 🤣.  But yeah, the only way I see the team getting Heineke at a bargain price is to do so in the very near future, which is obviously a huge gamble they wouldn't take.  Should he actually play lights out and cement himself as the future of the position here, he'll get expensive just like everyone else, and his agent won't be hearing anything about his lack of arm strength and the throws he can't make.

 

All you have to do is pay more than someone else would pay.  I don't see how anyone would pay a Cousins-type rate to Heinecke.  And it's BECAUSE of his ceiling, not despite it.  The lack of both arm strength and winning history, along with similar mistakes ever since what's-his-face ruined the QB market, the guy from Denver who the Texans signed for like a billion a year.  The fact that I can't even remember his name kinda shows that paying big money doesn't necessarily get big play.

EDIT:  Ossweiler, remembered as soon as I hit submit

Edited September 29, 2021 by NewCliche21

[CapsSkins]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Way too early to be talking money, but if we already ready to cheapskate him, how am I not to expect the Cousins fiasco all over again?  Its an overpaid position, if he's winning and putting up numbers, who are we to say "ya but you have weak arm strength, so you won't get paid what similar producing QBs get"?  This is one of my biggest problems with committing to him despite his limitations, the market is the market, we jus learned that the hard way.

 

This is the operative part. I think he can be a play a prominent role in this team winning a lot of games, but he's never going to put up Mahomes or Lamar or even Cousins-level individual stats. That's what I mean by a ceiling on his abilities and also cap hit.

 

I think you can win a Super Bowl with Taylor Heinicke if you build a great team around him. That's why the defense underperforming is so distressing, because they're supposed to be limiting opponents to 20 points so we only need Taylor and the O to score 25 (reductive example but you get the idea).

 

Taylor is not a guy who can score 50 in a shootout unless he has the game of his life and there are a bunch of stars around him making plays. I think people are getting hung up on the #'s I threw out there just for illustrative reasons, but the point is I think he's a guy who can be here on a (relatively) modest cap hit and deliver as much if not more value relative to that cap hit. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

19 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

All you have to do is pay more than someone else would pay.  I don't see how anyone would pay a Cousins-type rate to Heinecke.  And it's BECAUSE of his ceiling, not despite it.  The lack of both arm strength and winning history, along with similar mistakes ever since what's-his-face ruined the QB market, the guy from Denver who the Texans signed for like a billion a year. 

When I say cements himself as starter for this team, he obviously has to play well.  If he doesn’t win games all of this is moot.  

My point is that if the team does win with him, and he looks good doing it, he will be in line to get paid.  We’ve learned the hard way about letting a player set his market.  Unless he has a weak agent, he’s not signing some low end deal just because he was an UDFA with a weak arm.
 

 

 

[Renegade7]

Taylor is going to break some of yalls hearts when it comes contract time.  The market is not fair, and jus because some of ua want to be modest doesn't mean another QB hungry team will.

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

When I say cements himself as starter for this team, he obviously has to play well.  If he doesn’t win games all of this is moot.  

My point is that if the team does win with him, and he looks good doing it, he will be in line to get paid.  We’ve learned the hard way about letting a player set his market.  Unless he has a weak agent, he’s not signing some low end deal just because he was an UDFA with a weak arm.

 

I see your point.  I think my lack of faith in him (I ****REALLY***** want to be wrong) clouded my thought process.

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't always agree with Bullock but I give him credit for putting a lot of time in film review.    His mentioning of picks is one of my concerns about Heinicke.  QBs who throw with anticipation but without much zip on the ball can be vulnerable to picks.

 

I am more of a glass is half full than glass is half empty guy on Taylor.  A lot of my optimism is driven by his character -- seems like a good dude and teammates like him.  But I want to see the movie play out some before I can rest easy. 

 

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I see your point.  I think my lack of faith in him (I ****REALLY***** want to be wrong) clouded my thought process.

I get where you are coming from.  I personally don’t see it.  My gut says the majority of folks will be down on him by mid November and these conversations about paying him 25 per to play like a 35 million man will look incredibly silly.

 

Of course, I’d love to be wrong.  Why wouldn’t any fan want this guy to defy all the odds and fill the biggest gaping hole the team has?  If he does end up being the goods, I’ll be more than happy to eat crow.

Edited September 30, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[NoCalMike]

When you don't have an NFL caliber arm, it will limit the types of throws and even plays.   If you have to do that, it will make the job easier for the defense because they can start shading their coverage around the specific types of routes they anticipate TH to throw to.  It also probably allows them to be more aggressive in jumping routes or cheating up on coverage.   It doesn't man TH can't be effective out there but we have to stop acting like physical limitations are just some kind of irrelevant factor at the NFL level.  Guys like Wilson & Murray, and even Mahomes to some extent, are not your prototypical 6'5" monster presence QB's but what they do possess are rocket level arms that can make any throw at any time from anywhere on the field.  That makes a difference against defenses.   When you don't possess that kind of ability, it for sure gives the defense an advantage.   

[Pwyl]

I think the team could buy a third year of his rights pretty cheap right now with near 0 risk-  something like a 5m signing bonus, tack on a non guaranteed 3rd year at a 5m salary with a 10m roster bonus due at the start of the third league year. 

 

 

[zCommander]

10 hours ago, Silvernon said:

 

Disclaimer: not strictly correct because drives happen between quarters.  

 

 

Hmm... that's an interesting take. 

 

I was thinking about 1st drive and how bad our D came out and that pretty much set the tone for the rest of the game. No 3 and out. 

 

As for the take. Any INT or PUNT = at least 3 points or 6 being the max. The idea here is if you punt or the ball gets intercepted (which equals a punt) then the other team can drive down the field to either get 3 points or 6 or none and that really depends on your D and how good it is. Or it is better interest of the offense to not punt the ball or get INT and to put t 3 or 6 points on the board. 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by zskins

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

5 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I think you can win a Super Bowl with Taylor Heinicke if you build a great team around him. 

For real? Did you not see the pillowy soft passes to the outside that hung up on the breeze like that empty bag from American Beauty?

[RedskinsLegacy]

Miami scored 0 against Buffalo! There is NO other QB on this team who would have done any better, period! We had early mistakes kill us, the Logan Thomas fumble, penalties again. You can't make mistakes against elite teams and think you're going to win. I am fine with rolling on with Taylor, this offense will get better! Our problem is Defense! They are getting owned!

[Renegade7]

56 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

For real? Did you not see the pillowy soft passes to the outside that hung up on the breeze like that empty bag from American Beauty?

 

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at this post.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

For real? Did you not see the pillowy soft passes to the outside that hung up on the breeze like that empty bag from American Beauty?

 

I'm imagining the "build a great team around him" part takes care of most of those issues.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

I'm imagining the "build a great team around him" part takes care of most of those issues.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that alleviates the need to be able to make all the throws a QB has to make to be successful.  Even if you give a guy with mediocre arm talent a HOF receiving corps, he's still going to be put in situations where he has to make tough throws.  

 

I just think gone are the days of where a guy like Dilfer can win a Super Bowl.  I'm not saying that Taylor is Dilfer as they obviously play differently, but just the narrative that you can build a Super Bowl team around a limited QB and be successful seems outdated to me.  The only recent example I can recall is Peyton Manning with Denver, where it was obvious he just didn't have the ability to make certain throws any longer, but was still able to put enough together to win a SB.  But that's Peyton Manning, perhaps the most cerebral QB to ever play the game.

[ThomasRoane]

13 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

When you don't have an NFL caliber arm, it will limit the types of throws and even plays.   If you have to do that, it will make the job easier for the defense because they can start shading their coverage around the specific types of routes they anticipate TH to throw to.  It also probably allows them to be more aggressive in jumping routes or cheating up on coverage.   It doesn't man TH can't be effective out there but we have to stop acting like physical limitations are just some kind of irrelevant factor at the NFL level.  Guys like Wilson & Murray, and even Mahomes to some extent, are not your prototypical 6'5" monster presence QB's but what they do possess are rocket level arms that can make any throw at any time from anywhere on the field.  That makes a difference against defenses.   When you don't possess that kind of ability, it for sure gives the defense an advantage.   

 

You're on point here.  TH can be successful though if Scott Turner would be humble enough to change his plan of attack.  A QB like TH can be very effective and a winner as a play-action QB.  For that to happen, Turner has to commit (I mean really commit) to the running game.  Try to stay ahead of the sticks.  Keep the third downs manageable.  That doesn't mean that he has to discard all of his passing concepts.  There will be times when play-action is not an option.  Especially 2nd and 20+ or 3rd and 8+.  That has to be the exception though for TH to succeed.  If Turner can keep the down and distance manageable and chew up clock then I like TH's chances if he's facing an average of 3rd and 3.  His ability to scramble for the first would always be a threat to a defense.  Let's hope Turner can take a hard look at what he has and make the calls that play to the strengths he has.  Not what he wishes he had.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

TH can be successful though if Scott Turner would be humble enough to change his plan of attack.  A QB like TH can be very effective and a winner as a play-action QB.  For that to happen, Turner has to commit (I mean really commit) to the running game.

Agreed on this point, that the only way I see Taylor being successful enough to be considered a legit starter in the league is via a stout running game that opens up PA opportunities regularly.  That said, I'm not sure Turner committing to running it for the sake of running it, means that we will be successful doing it.  How many offenses in this day and age are run dominant and actually dominate regularly with that approach?  Outside of the Titans who have Derrick Henry, who else is really doing this?