Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

I know the mock draft types often peg the QB spot wrong.  I'll say Mac is going to be interesting in this draft -- most mock draft types seem to be sticking to top 15.  Others like Breer say he's hearing personnel guys are telling him 2nd round. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4822308/personable-bill-belichick-impresses-at-nfl-womens-careers-in-football-forum

2. Mel on Mac: Former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis is high on Alabama's 2021 NFL draft prospect Mac Jones as a quarterback of the future, and ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr. sees similarities between Jones and Weis' first New England QB pupil.

"I hate to say, but he kind of has a little bit of [Tom] Brady in him," Kiper said. "I'm not saying he's ever going to be Tom Brady. He wouldn't be close, probably. But he has that competitiveness, and he's so smart -- he picked that offense up [at the Senior Bowl] like it was nothing. Other quarterbacks were struggling with the verbiage and -- 'boom!' -- he was in and out of the huddle quicker than anybody I've ever seen.

"Then he sees the field. He's tremendously accurate to all levels. He doesn't have the 'wow' arm, like Brady didn't either coming into the league. And like Brady, he's not real mobile, not a runner. But biding time, slipping and sliding, he did it in the championship game. So there are some similarities there."

Kiper has Jones off the board at No. 8, to the Carolina Panthers, in his latest mock draft.

 

Denver tampering with Fitzpatrick?

 

 

 

[DWinzit]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Denver tampering with Fitzpatrick?

 

 

Sure sounds like tampering. 

Another of Elways QB search FAILs

What should this cost them, like a 3rd

[Rufus T Firefly]

59 minutes ago, daveakl said:

1) Who are you trading from last years team?  Give me some players and what type of return you are getting for them.

2) Who are you cutting from last years team that gives you salary to benefit the cap?  Examples please.

I didn't say anything about cutting players (though I could easily make a case that the team would be better off paying minimum salary guys and saving the salary of each of Thomas Davis, David Sharpe and Jeremy Sprinkle would benefit the team). What I said was the team would get a trade return for players that could prioritize cap or draft capital. For example, if I traded Kerrigan early last year, I could find a team willing to take most of his salary and give a smaller return or we could pay most or all off potentially and get more. 

 

I'm not going to guess at trade returns. I have no way of knowing what we could get, and that's just going to degenerate into silly and, frankly, pointless, debates that are beside the point anyway.

 

As for whom I would attempt to trade- Kerrigan and Darby are the obvious. Given the the demand for those positions as teams gear up for playoff runs, and the way those two were playing, I would guess a decent return was possible for each. I would definitely have tried to move Landon Collins from the first. Whether I could move a chunk of his guaranteed salary or just a little with draft capitol in return, the team would be much better off with him gone. Haskins, of course. I would have seen what the demand was for Scherff, because I don't want to pay his price tag as a FA. Maybe Moses. Maybe Jon Allen if the price was right. McKissic, perhaps. If someone wanted to overpay for Logan Thomas. 

 

I'm not going to guess who was going to give up what for anyone, but I'd look and listen on all of the above. 

[88Comrade2000]

16 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Why would you assume that to be the case?

Past history with Dan.  There will be a point in the Rivera era; if he's not winning that he will be let go. 

If ownership changes and Rivera isn't winning, then he will be let go.

 

That is something that will never change.  You continually lose; you get fired eventually. If Rivera era ends up with mostly losing; then he's gone.

[86 Snyder]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know the mock draft types often peg the QB spot wrong.  I'll say Mac is going to be interesting in this draft -- most mock draft types seem to be sticking to top 15.  Others like Breer say he's hearing personnel guys are telling him 2nd round. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4822308/personable-bill-belichick-impresses-at-nfl-womens-careers-in-football-forum

2. Mel on Mac: Former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis is high on Alabama's 2021 NFL draft prospect Mac Jones as a quarterback of the future, and ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr. sees similarities between Jones and Weis' first New England QB pupil.

"I hate to say, but he kind of has a little bit of [Tom] Brady in him," Kiper said. "I'm not saying he's ever going to be Tom Brady. He wouldn't be close, probably. But he has that competitiveness, and he's so smart -- he picked that offense up [at the Senior Bowl] like it was nothing. Other quarterbacks were struggling with the verbiage and -- 'boom!' -- he was in and out of the huddle quicker than anybody I've ever seen.

"Then he sees the field. He's tremendously accurate to all levels. He doesn't have the 'wow' arm, like Brady didn't either coming into the league. And like Brady, he's not real mobile, not a runner. But biding time, slipping and sliding, he did it in the championship game. So there are some similarities there."

Kiper has Jones off the board at No. 8, to the Carolina Panthers, in his latest mock draft.

 

Denver tampering with Fitzpatrick?

 

 

 

 

Mel Kiper clearly needs to retire and we should burn his toupee.  Brady and McCorkle Jones?  GTFOH.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[actorguy1]

NFL draft boards aren't set until 2 weeks before the draft.  Complete crap shoot right now.

[HigSkin]

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Denver tampering with Fitzpatrick?

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like some tricky reporter speak maybe trying to stir up clicks?

 

"I recently tweeted that I believe Lock would be back with a veteran free agent signed. My choices were Tyrod Taylor and Ryan Fitzpatrick. They have spoken to Fitzpatrick," Paige said Thursday.

 

 

Some were quick to question the veracity of Paige's hearsay; his "source" on Fitzpatrick could well be a five-year-old report by ESPN's Adam Schefter that connected the Broncos to Fitzpatrick — a report that Paige, knowingly or not, reshared.

 

"Broncos-Ryan Fitzpatrick had initial conversation, price more than Denver wants to spend at this time, and they could revisit talks later," Schefter wrote on March 13, 2016.

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

In an ideal setting, we'd get a cheap rookie QB while the rest of the roster (i.e. our d-line, Terry) was getting paid.  Honestly, from a roster building setting, it makes sense to wait on trying and getting a young rookie QB till next year/year after.  Lets see what Taylor and Kyle can do with a reinforced cast (LT, LB, WR) next year.

The problem with this route is if Heinicke or Allen doesn't work out, we've missed an opportunity in a great QB draft to get a rookie. Thats a lot of faith to have in two UDFAs who haven't proven to be anything more than solid backups. 

[88Comrade2000]

Haskins was Snyder's pet pick and whoever he was going to hire; would have to at least give Haskins a shot.  You don't think QB position was one of the things he and Rivera talked about.  Dan wouldn't hire a coach; who wouldn't at least give Haskins a shot.  Ron gave him a shot  and Haskins sunk to the occasion.  Maybe sitting behind Ben and Mason in Pittsburgh; will wake Haskins up.  

 

This team overdrafted him because the owner had a hard-on for him.  The Haskins mistake is over and done with.  Rivera knows his success lies with a QB and I'm sure he will find that long term QB either this year or next; or he will be packing his bags.

 

 

[daveakl]

40 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Kerrigan and Darby are the obvious. Given the the demand for those positions as teams gear up for playoff runs, and the way those two were playing, I would guess a decent return was possible for each.

At best you get a 4th for Kerrigan and a 4th or 5th for Darby.  But you are trading away a top 2 cb and your #3 OLB while you are in a playoff run, if you give up the season your players give up on you.  There is no way a GM can do that to a coach in year 1.

 

42 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I would definitely have tried to move Landon Collins from the first. Whether I could move a chunk of his guaranteed salary or just a little with draft capitol in return, the team would be much better off with him gone.

You are going to give up picks to have him taken off your books? 

44 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Haskins, of course. I would have seen what the demand was for Scherff, because I don't want to pay his price tag as a FA. Maybe Moses.

Haskins was not going to get much of anything in return going into last season, maybe a 4th that could become a 3 or 2?  If you trade 2/5ths of your O-Line, how on earth are you convincing one of the QB's on the trade market to come here?  Wilson and Watson aren't coming here to play for a team that just went 2-14.

 

Even worse, your O doesn't develop.  Thomas, Gibson, Terry, none of them have above average years.  Turner looks like crap as a O-cord and the team is pathetic.

 

48 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Maybe Jon Allen if the price was right.

If you trade away the leader of your D-Line you lose the room.

 

53 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

McKissic, perhaps. If someone wanted to overpay for Logan Thomas.

You are advocating trading away players who are leading your offense 4 months after signing them? 

[Rufus T Firefly]

LOL. I refer to my previous comment about such things degreasing into pointless and irrelevant debates.

 

And I thought it was pretty clear I didn't give a damn about a 7-9 "playoff run". If that was your priority then so be it. Again, my opinion is we chose that over a much better chance at long-term contention.

[daveakl]

5 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

And I thought it was pretty clear I didn't give a damn about a 7-9 "playoff run". If that was your priority then so be it. Again, my opinion is we chose that over a much better chance at long-term contention

Who is coming to coach this team that you are striping to nothing for the next 3 years?

 

Are you advocating that the correct move last season would have been to hire a GM and trade everything for a long haul rebuild?

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, daveakl said:

Who is coming to coach this team that you are striping to nothing for the next 3 years?

 

Are you advocating that the correct move last season would have been to hire a GM and trade everything for a long haul rebuild?

LOL. Have a good night. 

[daveakl]

4 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

LOL. Have a good night. 

You too!

[Going Commando]

6 hours ago, mhd24 said:

In an ideal setting, we'd get a cheap rookie QB while the rest of the roster (i.e. our d-line, Terry) was getting paid.  Honestly, from a roster building setting, it makes sense to wait on trying and getting a young rookie QB till next year/year after.  Lets see what Taylor and Kyle can do with a reinforced cast (LT, LB, WR) next year.

 

If we win 7 or 8 games next season, then we're going to be in the same boat only the QB class will be weaker.

 

I'm frustrated that our QB plan was Kyle Allen.  Such a bad plan that never would have been implemented if we'd had a damn GM when we started this rebuild.

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

  Rivera knows his success lies with a QB and I'm sure he will find that long term QB either this year or next; or he will be packing his bags.

 

There is absolutely no one holding Rivera accountable and that situation hasn't changed at all this offseason.  Not even fans or media are willing to acknowledge the mistakes he made this season.  Jay Gruden was given shockingly free reign and a lot of time for being such a train wreck of a person and coach.  Bruce Allen got a decade despite being an incompetent drunken moron.  Rivera gave the owner's choice QB four games before he pulled the plug on him, humiliated him and absolutely destroyed his value, and then cut him before the season was over.  The only thing that's happened after that is that he's consolidated his control over the franchise and become even more powerful than any other figure that's worked for the team, and he ran off Kyle Smith and populated the front office with his friends.  He's not going anywhere for a long time no matter what happens with the team.

[TheShredder]

48 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm frustrated that our QB plan was Kyle Allen.  Such a bad plan that never would have been implemented if we'd had a damn GM when we started this rebuild.

Big assumptions that before FA even starts that anything has been discovered about WFT plans except patients.  I'm just as interested as everyone else and have toyed with ideas too, but the bottom line is we only know that they're covering the basics (Allen & Heinicke) and that's it.  No need to start licking the barrel.  

[Cooleyfan1993]

22 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Big assumptions that before FA even starts that anything has been discovered about WFT plans except patients. 

Or, ya know, patience. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Not even fans or media are willing to acknowledge the mistakes he made this season.

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

There is absolutely no one holding Rivera accountable and that situation hasn't changed at all this offseason.  Not even fans or media are willing to acknowledge the mistakes he made this season.  Jay Gruden was given shockingly free reign and a lot of time for being such a train wreck of a person and coach.  Bruce Allen got a decade despite being an incompetent drunken moron.  Rivera gave the owner's choice QB four games before he pulled the plug on him, humiliated him and absolutely destroyed his value, and then cut him before the season was over.  The only thing that's happened after that is that he's consolidated his control over the franchise and become even more powerful than any other figure that's worked for the team, and he ran off Kyle Smith and populated the front office with his friends.  He's not going anywhere for a long time no matter what happens with the team.

I think Dwayne earned his demotion and then eventual release.  While we didn’t get anything for him; the Steelers decided to take a flyer on him.

[Burgold]

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

If we win 7 or 8 games next season, then we're going to be in the same boat only the QB class will be weaker.

 

I'm frustrated that our QB plan was Kyle Allen.  Such a bad plan that never would have been implemented if we'd had a damn GM when we started this rebuild.

Nah, our plan was Haskins. Haskins bombed out so spectacularly he had to be cut. Remember, he was a first round, pretty highly regarded pick who flashed enough at the end of 2019 that some hoped he would take a big leap. He didn't. Then, he started making all these personal choice/COVID errors.

[DWinzit]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

If we win 7 or 8 games next season, then we're going to be in the same boat only the QB class will be weaker.

 

I'm frustrated that our QB plan was Kyle Allen.  Such a bad plan that never would have been implemented if we'd had a damn GM when we started this rebuild.

 

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

There is absolutely no one holding Rivera accountable and that situation hasn't changed at all this offseason.  Not even fans or media are willing to acknowledge the mistakes he made this season.  Jay Gruden was given shockingly free reign and a lot of time for being such a train wreck of a person and coach.  Bruce Allen got a decade despite being an incompetent drunken moron.  Rivera gave the owner's choice QB four games before he pulled the plug on him, humiliated him and absolutely destroyed his value, and then cut him before the season was over.  The only thing that's happened after that is that he's consolidated his control over the franchise and become even more powerful than any other figure that's worked for the team, and he ran off Kyle Smith and populated the front office with his friends.  He's not going anywhere for a long time no matter what happens with the team.

It is frustrating that we are not in a good QB situation. Perhaps if we'd had a good GM in place we would be in a better place. 

 

It is frustrating that Smith was signed to such in idiotic contract and was injured only a few games into that contract which still straps us. His semi good health on a brace straps us too.

 

It was frustrating that Haskins was drafted by this organization. Especially at 15, all roads appear that he would have fallen a long was if not for Dan's infatuation and meddling. Gruden didn't do Haskins any favors

 

RR inherited Haskins and Smith which were already horrible situations. They tried with Haskins and he acted like a middle school kid and played like it. He was an embarrassment and should have been cut. He never allowed the team to have any faith in him. He is not a leader

 

I was pleased when they brought in Allen. He knew the system, had some success with it and has some mobility while not hitting the cap much while the other two QB's did

 

Allen is still cheap and on the roster. I am good with that and hope he is healthy and ready to fight in the spring.

 

We lucked out with Heinicke's play and now have him signed for two years. His ability is exciting and glad he will be here in the spring to battle for a starting role.

 

That leaves us looking for another QB. there are many options on the QB. Yup they are either 2nd tier guys or very costly options. There are a bunch of other teams in the same boat. Hope we can get one this year. Maybe they have a plan and backup plan. I think RR has done well with the roster in his first year and hope it continues to build it up. I feel we are moving in a positive direction for the first time in years. Can't wait to see the organizations free agency and draft moves in the coming months.

 

I understand your frustration but don't really understand the angle you take.  Here's to a good 2021 

 

[Est.1974]

6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'm frustrated that our QB plan was Kyle Allen.  Such a bad plan that never would have been implemented if we'd had a damn GM when we started this rebuild.

Rivera inherited Alex Smith, who’s 2020 salary was fully guaranteed at that stage, and who would have carried a dead cap hit of over 30mil if dumped, plus with Haskins also have a fully guaranteed contract still running. Probably 40mil plus is dead money if neither was on the books. You are essentially forced to ride that horse for a season.

 

Many would view a 5th round pick traded for a QB on bases money, with restricted free agency rights also transferring, as a shrewd and sensible move.

 

I mean, all this looking back on the failings of the organisation is draining, but in terms of addressing the QB position in 2020, well much like now, options were/are somewhat limited.

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

There is absolutely no one holding Rivera accountable and that situation hasn't changed at all this offseason.  Not even fans or media are willing to acknowledge the mistakes he made this season.  Jay Gruden was given shockingly free reign and a lot of time for being such a train wreck of a person and coach.  Bruce Allen got a decade despite being an incompetent drunken moron.  Rivera gave the owner's choice QB four games before he pulled the plug on him, humiliated him and absolutely destroyed his value, and then cut him before the season was over.  The only thing that's happened after that is that he's consolidated his control over the franchise and become even more powerful than any other figure that's worked for the team, and he ran off Kyle Smith and populated the front office with his friends.  He's not going anywhere for a long time no matter what happens with the team.

 

Seriously?  You have got to be kidding me. RR gave Haskins every chance. He was given the starting position with no real competition, he was warned over and over again that he needed to change his work habits.  After all we know now about what took place on and off the field how you can continue to blame Ron and not the player is simply amazing.  

Edited March 1, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Skinsinparadise]

Rivera was caught between a rock and a hard place on Haskins and for that matter a number of issues put on his doorstep by Dan.  None of it was his fault.  Rivera like any coach or GM for that matter will make mistakes.  If we are going to hammer any coach or GM for mistakes, they all stink then, because none of them are close to infalliable. but I can't think of a coach in the NFL with more obstacles last year than that dude.  I think he did a great job considering. 

 

A.  Dan who according to reliable reporters like Keim was smittened by Haskins.  That was Dan's dude.  We read the report that Kyle Smith didn't think highly of Haskins and one higher up in that organization was so down on the pick that they felt nauseous about it.  So Ron had to deal with his buffoon owner in love with a QB who the FO Ron inherited didn't think much of. So he walked into an awkward situation and made the best of it.   Ron had no choice but to give it go at least a little.  You can't just take a job and say to the owner you won't even give his pet player a chance to show what he has.  So he did.  

 

B. Haskins according to multiple reports didn't work very hard once he was given the job and his teammates noticed it.  He had to bench him.  Notice not one player even passively said anything about regretting that Haskins was benched either at the time or later?  Between that and other stories ala Haskins bragging after loses -- Rivera had to make a move to keep the locker room strong.  

 

C.  Then Rivera is dealing with the name change.  Dealing with all the crazy sexual harassment stories.  And as for Kyle Smith a couple of reporters said Ron got along well with Kyle but the feeling was Kyle's strong ties to Bruce (Kyle's dad is Bruce's best friend) demanded they needed to move on.  Sounded weird at the time but now it makes a lot more sense with Bruce apparently being one of the drivers of helping the minority owners in their court room spitting match with Dan. 

 

Ron inherited a major crap strom from Dan and handled it really well IMO.    He couldn't discard Dan's toy from the jump when he got hired.  He had to play that out some and he did.  Now he's all hands on deck working to solve the QB issue, I'd give him some time.  All of his predecessors have failed at QB for the last 20 years, I'd give Ron at least an off season or two to fix the thing that this organization has never solved under Dan's incompetent leadership.