Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

See, that's not the perspective I like to look at it. I'd like to succeed. Is it better to trade for the QB who becomes a bust or the mediocre guy who helps stabilize the franchise? Honestly I started to bring this up in the Bruce Allen thread because @Skinsinparadise made a comment that Bruce Allen had never won a trade and I was going to bring up the Case Keenum trade where we gave up almost nothing and got somebody who could come in and play immediately and could have stabilized the position if not for Haskins. Now which was a better pick up, trading for Keenum or drafting Haskins? 

 

The reality of how that trade played out was "meh" at best.  They gave up a draft pick, granted a low one, for a one year rental of Keenum, to go 3-13.  If that's Bruce's victory lap trade then if anything than it brings home pretty well how awful he was at running this team.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, 86 Snyder said:

For anyone who cares...

 

Alex Smith went 11-5 over two seasons spanning 3 years in Washington.

 

Opponents record in wins: 73-116-3 (38.62%)

 

Opponents record in losses: 41-23 (64.5%)

 

He's exactly who we thought he was.  He can manage games to victory against bad competition.  He has an incredibly difficult time against good competition.  

 

Only 5 of his 16 starts came against teams who finished the year with a winning record.

 

Only 2 of his 11 wins came against teams who finished the year with a winning record.

Lets not complain about some of these things. Like I hear Wizards radio / fans talking about "but look who the Wizards are beating" and I'm like just look at who they are. They're the freakin Wizards. They're not a team of all pros, they're the wizards. This is the Washington team that picked second in the draft last year, and couldn't win a game in 2018 without Smith (after he went down) and would lose to these very teams with Kirk in 2017 so I'm not going to say he only beat bad teams because a win is a win. maybe we wouldn't have gone deep in the playoffs but we were 6-4. I thank him for that. 

[clskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

For anyone who cares...

 

Alex Smith went 11-5 over two seasons spanning 3 years in Washington.

 

Opponents record in wins: 73-116-3 (38.62%)

 

Opponents record in losses: 41-23 (64.5%)

 

He's exactly who we thought he was.  He can manage games to victory against bad competition.  He has an incredibly difficult time against good competition.  

 

Only 5 of his 16 starts came against teams who finished the year with a winning record.

 

Only 2 of his 11 wins came against teams who finished the year with a winning record.

You do realize that if you beat somebody that impacts their overall winning record right?

[Skinsinparadise]

lol, hope there isn't much of this with other players in FA.

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The reality of how that trade played out was "meh" at best.  They gave up a draft pick, granted a low one, for a one year rental of Keenum, to go 3-13.  If that's Bruce's victory lap trade then if anything than it brings home pretty well how awful he was at running this team.

 

 

Honestly I felt that same way, but your comment was that we never "won" a trade. I was going to scream this one back but yeah this is not really a win. But he had 64% completion and 1700 yards in 10 games. Its not world beating but its legit enough to be respectable. We just didn't have a team. 

[86 Snyder]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Lets not complain about some of these things. Like I hear Wizards radio / fans talking about "but look who the Wizards are beating" and I'm like just look at who they are. They're the freakin Wizards. They're not a team of all pros, they're the wizards. This is the Washington team that picked second in the draft last year, and couldn't win a game in 2018 without Smith (after he went down) and would lose to these very teams with Kirk in 2017 so I'm not going to say he only beat bad teams because a win is a win. maybe we wouldn't have gone deep in the playoffs but we were 6-4. I thank him for that. 

 

Well, that's kinda my point.  We weren't a good enough team around Alex where trading for him made any kind of sense.  All it did was raise the floor, keeping us from high draft picks amd real QB solutions, while putting a low ceiling on what the team could actually accomplish.

 

And that is the worst place to be in the NFL.  

[clskinsfan]

Marcus Mariota

Though trade talks have "dried up significantly" recently, per Rapoport, I believe Mariota still has starter ability in the right system, which I wrote about in this same space last year. Often used in the West Coast offense (or a variation of it) during his days in Tennessee, Mariota is a spread quarterback who's best when using his legs. He's not the most polished passer and will make mistakes at times, but to me, he's a better passer than most quarterbacks whose strength is mobility. Plugging Mariota into a creative, run-oriented offense will allow him to thrive, not just survive.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/ten-quarterbacks-worth-pursuing-via-free-agency-2021-nfl-draft-trade

 

 

[86 Snyder]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

You do realize that if you beat somebody that impacts their overall winning record right?

 

Yes and only one of those opponents finished with at least 7 wins.  Try again.

[Darrell Green Fan]

11 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Him not being good doesn’t change 11-5 being what the record was in his time as a starter. It IS possible to say both things, 1) the record in games he started was 11-5, and 2) he wasn’t a key factor, but still helped at least a little bit. 
 

both things can be true. 

 

I get all this, I think most of us can agree.  I just don't see the point of bring up that he is was 11-5 as a starter when he didn't play that well.

 

64% completion rate and 170 yards a game only shows one thing: he threw a ton of dump offs and check downs.   

Edited March 1, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Cooleyfan1993]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I get all this, I think most of us can agree.  I just don't see the point of bring up that he is was 11-5 as a starter when he didn't play that.  

People are saying he was 11-5 as a starter because that’s quite literally his record as a starter. Nothing deeper than that. 

[DWinzit]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

lol, hope there isn't much of this with other players in FA.

 

 

 

Other players have made similar comments.

Most of the FA options are not going entice these guys to DC. And for the coming year, what QB in the draft is going to draw these vets who seek a possible ring...Maybe Lawrence?

 

Only a big trade name like Watson, Wilson or maybe Dak

Edited March 1, 2021 by DWinzit

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Well, that's kinda my point.  We weren't a good enough team around Alex where trading for him made any kind of sense.  All it did was raise the floor, keeping us from high draft picks amd real QB solutions, while putting a low ceiling on what the team could actually accomplish.

 

And that is the worst place to be in the NFL.  

OK, so this is kinda something that's been debated on and off here. I disagree with that. I don't like what we gave up but I think that we could have been a really good team if we had done more to sure up the rest of our team. We had no LG, and out LT was constantly injured. We benched our best 3rd down RB after Thompson (Bibbs). Our defense was laughable (literally. Teams laughed at 3rd and long, then made it and laughed again). I mean if we'd have had Smith those final 6 games I have no doubt we'd be a playoff team and maybe somebody else snatches Haskins off the board and we don't go down that rabbit hole. 

 

I'd put more into the failures of guys like Mason Foster, Ha Ha Clinton Dix, Josh Norman, cutting Swearinger, Stacey McGee, etc. We needed a defense and we had bodies but no ability. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Honestly I felt that same way, but your comment was that we never "won" a trade. I was going to scream this one back but yeah this is not really a win. But he had 64% completion and 1700 yards in 10 games. Its not world beating but its legit enough to be respectable. We just didn't have a team. 

 

Keenum was just a guy and we didn't bring him back.  Would I rather have the higher pick in that draft in retrospect or feel thankful that we had Keenum for a one year rental?  I'd rather have had that pick.  So I don't see it as win.  But I guess if there is a category that means not an abysmally bad trade -- then yeah the Keenum trade would qualify.   If Bruce is pushing for a new job somewhere I doubt he's saying look what i did on the Keenum deal.  

[Burgold]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Other players have made similar comments.

Most of the FA options are not going entice these guys to DC. And for the coming year, what QB in the draft is going to draw these vets who seek a possible ring...Maybe Lawrence?

 

Only a big trade name like Watson, Wilson or maybe Dak

I don't know that we want "big name" guys anyway. We went down that road for a long time with awful results. I think it'd be better to get hungry guys who need a chance to jump to that next level.

 

If Amari Toomer doesn't want us? Big deal. He can lose with Dallas. Same thing with any other "alpha" free agent. Find me more McKissic's and Logan Thomas'. Guys who outplay their contract and fight all game long.

[86 Snyder]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

OK, so this is kinda something that's been debated on and off here. I disagree with that. I don't like what we gave up but I think that we could have been a really good team if we had done more to sure up the rest of our team. We had no LG, and out LT was constantly injured. We benched our best 3rd down RB after Thompson (Bibbs). Our defense was laughable (literally. Teams laughed at 3rd and long, then made it and laughed again). I mean if we'd have had Smith those final 6 games I have no doubt we'd be a playoff team and maybe somebody else snatches Haskins off the board and we don't go down that rabbit hole. 

 

I'd put more into the failures of guys like Mason Foster, Ha Ha Clinton Dix, Josh Norman, cutting Swearinger, Stacey McGee, etc. We needed a defense and we had bodies but no ability. 

 

Yeah we can agree to disagree on that, fair enough.  But I'd argue Alex is simply incapable of winning a Super Bowl.  He couldn't even get close with KC, so it ends right there for me.  You're saying there's value in stabilizing a franchise and while I disagree, I understand the viewpoint.  I'd rather my *coaching staff and front office* stabilize the franchise and the quarterback go win playoff games and super bowls, but I can at least see your viewpoint.

 

We've not been arguing whether the sky is actually blue, despite @Cooleyfan1993s insistance to the contrary lol.

Edited March 1, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, 86 Snyder said:

Yeah we can agree to disagree on that, fair enough.  But I'd argue Alex is simply incapable of winning a Super Bowl.  He couldn't even get close with KC, so it ends right there for me.  You're saying there's value in stabilizing a franchise and while O disagree, I understand the viewpoint.  I'd rather my coaching staff and front office stabilize the franchise and the quarterback go win playoff games and super bowls, but I can at least see your viewpoint.

 

Yeah the Alex Smith thing is particular to him but several QBs (Case Keenum included) have made it far without being the gem finds. Look at what Blake Bortels did in Jax. Look at Jimmy G in SF. Look at Goff in LA or Foles in Phi. We've gone back and forth on this board with me bringing up these type of examples and others saying those are the one time wonders but the ones who consistently go back are the franchise guys - Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, etc. Its two sides of the coin I think because you need to have a QB and you need to build a franchise. Which one comes first probably depends on what you have on your team and what's available to you to rebuild. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

We've not been arguing whether the sky is actually blue, despite @Cooleyfan1993s insistance to the contrary lol.

Not once did i suggest you were.

 

what i DID say, however, was what his whole point was about stating smiths overall record as starter. Which you somehow didn’t comprehend, at all 

[DWinzit]

7 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I don't know that we want "big name" guys anyway. We went down that road for a long time with awful results. I think it'd be better to get hungry guys who need a chance to jump to that next level.

 

If Amari Toomer doesn't want us? Big deal. He can lose with Dallas. Same thing with any other "alpha" free agent. Find me more McKissic's and Logan Thomas'. Guys who outplay their contract and fight all game long.

I hope they have a bunch of more of those type players targeted! Who the heck needs Amari Toomer types anyway!  

Edited March 1, 2021 by DWinzit

[Mooka]

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But how long has the rookie pay scale been in place? I give that the COVID has something to do with it, but that doesn't give them experience. So the question becomes how will these guys play next year, especaially compared to the guys like Jones (if he goes 2nd or later), Mond, Trask, Newman, etc. I think there's less pressure on these late round guys in general but also in this COVID world where they can gain reps in practice without the spotlight. 

 

Pay scale has been over a decade, but many big name QBs were drafted before 2011. And rookies don't get contracts until after 4 years so the numbers take a bit to catch up.  

 

The "rule" used to be you never pay a single player or QB more then 13% of your salary cap, but that ship has long sailed. These days a Kirk Cousins makes more then that vs the cap and its normal. It'll only get worse too. Every QB signs the next biggest deal ever. 

[86 Snyder]

1 minute ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Not once did i suggest you were.

 

what i DID say, however, was what his whole point was about stating smiths overall record as starter. Which you somehow didn’t comprehend, at all 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Chicago makes so much sense for Alex.

Not just because of Nagy.

But it seems like the perfect place, where from the team's perspective, they don't have to commit to him as a starter. But if their starter doesn't work out, and that's a real possibility, he could step in as a good alternative.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Malapropismic Depository

[clskinsfan]

"NFL Draft 2021: BYU’s Zach Wilson isn’t an upgrade over Jets’ Sam Darnold, ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr. says"

I need some of what Kiper is smoking:

https://www.nj.com/jets/2021/03/nfl-draft-2021-heres-why-byus-zach-wilson-is-not-a-sure-thing-upgrade-over-jets-sam-darnold-says-mel-kiper-jr.html

 

[redskinss]

4 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Chicago makes so much sense for Alex.

Not just because of Nagy.

But it seems like the perfect place, where from the team's perspective, they don't have to commit to him as a starter. But if their starter doesn't work out, and that's a real possibility, he could step in as a good alternative.

I would bet on him taking Wentz' job, and not taking long to do it.

Didn't Wentz go to Indianapolis?

[Malapropismic Depository]

6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Didn't Wentz go to Indianapolis?

 

Sorry you're right  ; Chicago was the rumor for so long, that I had it printed in my brain that that's where he landed

[samy316]

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

lol, hope there isn't much of this with other players in FA.

 

 

 

This is exactly what I was saying last week, when talking about the need to significantly upgrade at QB to have a chance at some of these upper tier FA’s considering coming to DC.  Right now, we’re kind of a black hole when it comes to top destinations for top tier players.  We need to upgrade at QB, or draft a QB if we want to have a chance at getting top tier offensive players this offseason.

Edited March 1, 2021 by samy316