Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[daveakl]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Haskins had value because of course he did.

Please explain what value you believe Haskins had?

 

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

This regime has mismanaged their QBs here from the moment they took over and we're worse now at the position than we were when they were hired.

Explain?  We went into 2020 needing to find out if Haskins could or could not be the franchise QB.  We found out the answer. Oh, and along the way we won the division.  Now, you can try and argue that the mismanagement was doing that, winning enough games to make the playoffs instead of finishing with a top 6 pick to try drafting a franchise QB again.  But saying that they mismanaged their QB's is simply not true.

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Thanks for allowing me to use a word that portrays the truth.  Look, I'm not trying to put some feather in my cap, I'm acknowledging a simple truth that Haskins had value because of course he did.  This fan base is pretending like he didn't because they need a scapegoat for what went so horribly wrong that isn't the guy with absolute control over everything about this football team.

 

I am not taking it for granted that this staff won't undermine and fail with the next QB prospect they get because they have done absolutely nothing to earn that benefit of the doubt.  This regime has mismanaged their QBs here from the moment they took over and we're worse now at the position than we were when they were hired.  And they've navigated us into a no man's land where we're looking at the scenarios of either going into a camp competition between a couple of UDFAs, trading assets for vet journeymen, or having to mortgage our future to roll the dice on another raw prospect.

 

I'm also not taking it for granted that if Rivera trades up for a first round QB this year and bombs with him too that he'll be held accountable for that failure.  Why would you assume that?  How long did Bruce Allen get before he was finally canned?  How many tries at QB did Gruden get?  Rivera is in total control of the organization and there is no one that can hold him accountable right now and he just hired a couple of front office employees that he can scapegoat and fire if things don't work out.

Uh, the owner can hold him accountable. If he isn’t winning; Ron and gm posse will be given the boot. Whoever that owner is.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Uh, the owner can hold him accountable. If he isn’t winning; Ron and gm posse will be given the boot. Whoever that owner is.

Why would you assume that to be the case?

[Going Commando]

9 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Thanks for ignoring everything I wrote.

 

This is your response?

[Going Commando]

5 hours ago, daveakl said:

Please explain what value you believe Haskins had?

 

Explain?  We went into 2020 needing to find out if Haskins could or could not be the franchise QB.  We found out the answer. Oh, and along the way we won the division.  Now, you can try and argue that the mismanagement was doing that, winning enough games to make the playoffs instead of finishing with a top 6 pick to try drafting a franchise QB again.  But saying that they mismanaged their QB's is simply not true.

 

Haskins was a first round pick going into his second year on the upswing.  Of course he had value, and the only reason Redskins fans are pretending he didn't is because they need to believe in Rivera.  They need to believe he didn't ****ing puke all over himself with his QBs this season.

 

Right now our QB situation is a dead cap hit and a pair of long shot UDFAs competing in camp for the starting job.  Abso****inglutely we'd be better right now if we hadn't made a ragtag 7-9 run and first round ass-whupping and we had a top five pick and a chance at a good QB that wouldn't require trading a bunch of picks to get.  Duh.  If we had premium draft picks we might get Russell Wilson or Deshaun Watson.  Or we could stand pat and pick someone good.  Instead we're in no man's land with no clear avenues of getting better beyond a ****ing hail mary that Taylor Heinickie is the next Kurt Warner.

[Dark Acre]

This isn't the NBA.  Losing badly is not the cure for what ails you.

[Est.1974]

13 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

I'm starting to feel like we should have paid two 1sts for Stafford. We'd have 5 years of excellent QB play and could actually attract free agent skill players. With this defense, we'd be relatively set. It's starting to look like we are going to miss out on all the other significant upgrades this year. 

I think we certainly could have been more aggressive in that pursuit, however I do also think Stafford was fairly set on LA once they were involved. So, it was a situation that was never going to fall in out favour, also given the Lions were more than happy to take on Goff’s contract (even though we did also ask about Goff, allegedly).

[daveakl]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Of course he had value

Sorry, I should have asked it better.  What value do you believe he had?  At what point last season could they have received that value and from whom?  

 

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Abso****inglutely we'd be better right now if we hadn't made a ragtag 7-9 run and first round ass-whupping and we had a top five pick and a chance at a good QB that wouldn't require trading a bunch of picks to get.

Rivera should have won less to improve the QB room, not won more?  How does a coach go about doing that?  Keep trotting Haskins out there instead of someone else?  Damn the players  in the locker room buying into your system during the first year, we need a high draft pick to get a QB!  Is that the argument for how they mismanaged the QB situation?

[Darrell Green Fan]

Steve still blaming everyone but the player I see.  LOL that he had value.  He was available for free to any team and signed a non-guaranteed cheap deal.  

 

Now he lands in the perfect spot.  A well respected team with no QB. If he fails here what will the excuses be then?  

[Warhead36]

Some people choose the strangest of hills to die on.

[Burgold]

15 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 I'm acknowledging a simple truth that Haskins had value because of course he did. 

Here's a contrarian thought. Haskins greatest value was in cutting him. Think about it. It was a huge wake up call to every player on the team thinking about going through the motions on a losing season. If Rivera was willing to cut his first round QB on the second year of his rookie contract who could possibly be safe? We've considered a whole bunch of reasons why the team suddenly got better after Haskins was cut. Maybe one of them was "fear of G-d." After all, everyone keeps saying that Alex's stats were not world shaking and not far superior to previous QB production. So, Alex's leadership, his lack of "mistakes" and timely play sure helped, but there may have been a number of other factors. For one, the defense played immensely better after Haskins' departure. That could be coincidence or everything suddenly coming together, but maybe this team really needed more than anything a wake up call to show that this season would be business as unusual.

[Darrell Green Fan]

8 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Here's a contrarian thought. Haskins greatest value was in cutting him. Think about it. It was a huge wake up call to every player on the team thinking about going through the motions on a losing season. If Rivera was willing to cut his first round QB on the second year of his rookie contract who could possibly be safe? We've considered a whole bunch of reasons why the team suddenly got better after Haskins was cut. Maybe one of them was "fear of G-d." After all, everyone keeps saying that Alex's stats were not world shaking and not far superior to previous QB production. So, Alex's leadership, his lack of "mistakes" and timely play sure helped, but there may have been a number of other factors. For one, the defense played immensely better after Haskins' departure. That could be coincidence or everything suddenly coming together, but maybe this team really needed more than anything a wake up call to show that this season would be business as unusual.

 

While the defense did improve the biggest reason by far was the player at the most important position in the sport sucked.  He wasn't just bad he was horrible.  Any QB, as we saw with Allen and Smith who certainly did not play well, made a huge difference for the team. 

 

It doesn't get any more complicated than that.  

Edited February 28, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Burgold]

4 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

The team got better for one reason: The player at the most important position in the sport sucked.  He wasn't just bad he was horrible.  Any QB, as we saw with Allen and Smith who certainly did not play well, made a huge difference for the team. 

 

It doesn't get any more complicated than that.  

Nah.

 

Nothing's ever that simple. We've seen this team throw in the towel many times over many seasons, especially during the Gruden years. We also saw a huge improvement on the opposite side of the ball and even on special teams. QBs don't play special teams or defense.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Burgold

[Darrell Green Fan]

5 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Nah.

 

Nothing's ever that simple. We've seen this team throw in the towel many times over many seasons, especially during the Gruden years. We also saw a huge improvement on the opposite side of the ball and even on special teams. QBs don't play special teams or defense.

 

Totally disagree. You will never win with a QB who throws a check down on 4th and goal after being told by coaches to make sure the throw is in or near the end zone.  I'm not saying there are not other factors, and yes the defense did play better. But I will always believe the biggest reason the team turned around is they got rid of the one guy who was holding them back the most by far.  

Edited February 28, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Riggo#44]

18 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Lance isn't perfect but the guy has so many tools to work with, and to me, his upside is worth a gamble. Just look at what Philadelphia was able to do with Jalen Hurts, who isn't half the prospect that Lance is, imagine what a player like that could do with our team and what that opens up for the offense. 

 

I don't think this team can afford to let the draft board "come to them". Sometimes you have to be aggressive and I'm 100% for trading up for Lance or Justin Fields. 

I've seen many people question our ability to develop quarterbacks--mostly because of the terrible QBs we had here last year. 

 

Cam Newtown was an inaccurate, 1-year starter that Rivera's staff turned into an MVP and a Super Bowl quarterback.

 

Ken Zampese is widely regarded as one of the best QBs coaches in the league. He helped develop both Carson Palmer and Baker Mayfield. The latter took a huge step back after Zampese left.

 

So I have no idea why people don't think we can develop a QB.

[RWJ]

10 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Ken Zampese is widely regarded as one of the best QBs coaches in the league. He helped develop both Carson Palmer and Baker Mayfield. The latter took a huge step back after Zampese left.

 

So I have no idea why people don't think we can develop a QB.

Agreed.

[Mooka]

Haskins would've had value with a competently run franchise but it was obvious that Gruden didn't want him and was on the outs anyway.

 

Ron is no dummy, he tried to showcase Haskins, tried to play up his leadership and putting in the right work, all that jazz before the season started. Unfortunately Dwayne was/is beyond stupid and Rivera couldn't salvage the situation. 

 

Of course a competent franchise wouldn't have drafted Haskins that early or at all to begin with. 

 

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

Nah.

 

Nothing's ever that simple. We've seen this team throw in the towel many times over many seasons, especially during the Gruden years. We also saw a huge improvement on the opposite side of the ball and even on special teams. QBs don't play special teams or defense.

I still suspect Smith was a big factor. Smith has played many an ugly game and came up with the W and has played beautifully and got the L . On his time here, he has only given up 10 cheap points. Even going back, it seems he somehow gets everyone on all sides of the ball to perform their best despite some ugly play on his part.  Reminds me of Kilmer at times (just really dated myself).

[Darth Tater]

3 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

I've seen many people question our ability to develop quarterbacks--mostly because of the terrible QBs we had here last year. 

 

Cam Newtown was an inaccurate, 1-year starter that Rivera's staff turned into an MVP and a Super Bowl quarterback.

 

Ken Zampese is widely regarded as one of the best QBs coaches in the league. He helped develop both Carson Palmer and Baker Mayfield. The latter took a huge step back after Zampese left.

 

So I have no idea why people don't think we can develop a QB.

Cam Newton was a pro-bowler as a rookie and his accuracy never really changed significantly. His accuracy was never better than in his 1 year of big time starting, He had a cannon and an ability to run like a big back that forced you to play him in a pretty straight up manner. His success is more about having an offense that catered to his strengths.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Darth Tater
Bug time?

[Renegade7]

Haskins has nothing to do with 2021 because he isn't here anymore.  I was huge proponent of getting him, I was wrong.  I'm moving on, we all should.

 

As for this thread, I'm still on aiming high, but refuse to accept that we should've lost as many games as possible in hindsight do to Watson wanting out of Houston in the future.  That's not how reality works, that how always wanting to look right works.

 

I'd be fine with signing Dak long-term or Cam as a stop-gap.  I, too, am concerned about future QB classes let alone my original point that we are terrible at develop QBs.  

 

@stevemcqueen1 you've gotta let this Haskins thing go, man, it's over.  We need a future QB, it was never gonna be him, we were wrong.

[Riggo#44]

13 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Cam Newton was a pro-bowler as a rookie and his accuracy never really changed significantly. His accuracy was never better than in his 1 year of big time starting, He had a cannon and an ability to run like a big back that forced you to play him in a pretty straight up manner. His success is more about having an offense that catered to his strengths.

Huh. Sounds a lot like Trey Lance...

[Darth Tater]

@Renegade7If you believe as stevemcqueen1 does that mismanagement by Rivera and company are the primary reasons behind Haskins failure, using a first on a project QB becomes a highly questionable strategy.

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

Huh. Sounds a lot like Trey Lance...

Though Cam Newton did better at a higher level. Cam also had a good year in JUCO.

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

@Renegade7If you believe as stevemcqueen1 does that mismanagement by Rivera and company are the primary reasons behind Haskins failure, using a first on a project QB becomes a highly questionable strategy.

Haskins was primarily at fault for his own undoing.

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

@Renegade7If you believe as stevemcqueen1 does that mismanagement by Rivera and company are the primary reasons behind Haskins failure, using a first on a project QB becomes a highly questionable strategy.

 

It doesn't matter to me anymore if we did something wrong because we have proven we just can't get this right right now.  

 

I just can't support using first rounder after first rounder on QBs because we are supposed to and we fail over and over again.

 

This is what will happen, one day we will do it even though I don't want to and it will finally work.

 

I can live with that, but my opinion still stands until I'm proven wrong.

 

Haskins did this to himself because of his unprofessionalism, which superceeds us mismanaging him his first year here.  It was pouring ammonia and bleach together, the results could be seen coming a mile away.  The bigger problem is even if we did everything right, Haskins did everything wrong, so it still would've failed.  This goes back to picking him in the first place, we keep screwing up the pick in the first place to then say "did we mismanage them".

 

Did we mismanage RG3?  Jason Campbell?  Ramsey?  No, no, and no, they were garbage with ceilings we couldn't do anything with and shouldn't of picked them in the first place.  All for different reasons but very similar results.  I'm an absolute pessimist on drafting QBs right now until someone in this organization proves we can get it right.  I get where Steve is coming from, its not all BS, it still comes back to Haskins himself being BS, thus why it would've failed no matter what.  We have to accept that we are the problem by picking these bammas in the first place.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Renegade7

[Darth Tater]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

It doesn't matter to me anymore if we did something wrong because we have proven we just can't get this right right now.  

 

I just can't support using first rounder after first rounder on QBs because we are supposed to and we fail over and over again.

 

This is what will happen, one day we will do it even though I don't want to and it will finally work.

 

I can live with that, but my opinion still stands until I'm proven wrong.

 

Haskins did this to himself because of his unprofessionalism, which superceeds us mismanaging him his first year here.  It was pouring ammonia and bleach together, the results could be seen coming a mile away.  The bigger problem is even if we did everything right, Haskins did everything wrong, so it still would've failed.  This goes back to picking him in the first place, he keep screwing up the pick in the first place to then say "did we mismanage them".

 

Did we mismanage RG3?  Jason Campbell?  Ramsey?  No, no, and no, they were garbage with ceilings we couldn't do anything with and shouldn't of picked them in the first place.  All for different reasons but very similar results.  I'm an absolute pessimist on drafting QBs right now until someone in this organization proves we can get it right.  I get where Steve is coming from, its not all BS, it still comes back to Haskins himself being BS, thus why it would've failed no matter what.  We have to accept that we are the problem by picking these bammas in the first place.

Whether we mismanaged RG3, Campbell or not is irrelevant as those guys were QBs in different regimes, IF one believes RON RIVERA and the current regime mismanaged Haskins is relevant going forward. The only argument against stevemcqueen1's position is that the failure was not mismanagement, not the assertion that the failure itself is irrelevant.