Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[ODU AGGIE]

Guys, all this discussion is interesting, but most of you are missing the point. WFT does not need to be looking for a QB. There is a superb winning QB on the roster right now. TH is a baller and always has been. As a high school senior he was the Florida Gator Aid offensive player of the year. I watched him for four years at Old Dominion where he passed almost 15,000 yards, ran for over 1,300, had a 67.7% completion percentage, threw for 132 TDs, averaging 33 TD passes per year, ran for another 22 TDs, compiled an overall 155.9 passer rating and was the Walter Payton Award winner (the FCS equivalent of the Heisman). He even punted from the shotgun for something like a 47.0 average.

 

Year	Passing								Rushing
	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	TD	Int	Rtg	Att	Yds	Avg	TD
Career[21]	1,238	1,829	67.7%	14,959	8.2	132	39	155.9	367	1,320	3.6	22
2011	211	307	68.7%	2,385	7.8	25	1	160.2	68	363	5.3	4
2012	398	579	68.7%	5,076	8.8	44	14	162.6	126	470	3.7	11
2013	340	486	70.0%	4,022	8.3	33	8	158.6	93	348	3.7	5
2014	289	457	63.2%	3,476	7.6	30	16	141.8	80	139	1.7	2

 

For a variety of reasons, he has had limited opportunity in the NFL, but what you saw of him against the Panthers and the Bucs is who he is. It's like he told Chase Young, "That's what I do" -- and believe me it is what he does. I really hope RR gives him the opportunity to be the starter next year. We will all be happy if he does. 

[carex]

21 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

How to do it?  Well that is the issue isnt it?  I keep hearing people railing against this strawman fan that is satisfied with a mediocre qb.  Nobody is satisfied with that. Every fan and WFT coach/gm should want to upgrade every position, always.  We all want a great qb but they dont grow on trees and getting one isnt solely a function of wanting one more.  If there isnt one available, what else can a team do other then try to improve the position as best they can?  

 

If getting that top 5  franchise QB was the only thing that would satisfy us, this year or any year, then practically speaking the quickest and most reliable way to do this would be to tank and tank hard.  As of right now Watson is not even available so if we want an elite guy we will have to draft him.     So all of the fans that think that there desire for a top 5 qb is some kind of hot take, then put your money where your mouth is and call for the tank now.   If that is the only result that is worthwhile then the only real certain way to accomplish it is to play to lose and to keep doing it until you can draft the next elite guy at 1 overall. or close.  

 

Personally I wand to build the team and upgrade all the positions, including QB  and expect that they t can win and win consistently.  Maybe they will find a guy that is elite or maybe they wont but its hard to imagine it wont be from lack of trying. If thats not good enough for some of you, if that is poor strategy, then the WFT needs to lose and lose big.. so be honest about it and no more double talk.

  

 

 

man people do seem to want us to tank and tank hard.  Trying to upgrade every position is futile.  And Watson was picked at 10 and Mahomes picked at 12.  So you don't have to be at the tip top of the draft.  For non-division winners this year 7-9 is at 13-15.  So in a normal year we wouldn't have to tank hard to get within reach of some of these guys

15 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

Those are a handful of teams...16 teams make the playoffs every year. Other than Brady, Big Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, and Mahomes. There hasn't been many QB's recently who have been to the playoffs/SB year in and out. Heck as I said earlier, Brady has been to 10 SB's and won 6 of em. I'm in the game manager camp until you can draft an elite QB without mortgaging the future. Everyone want's a franchise QB, but elite/franchise QB's are RARE. It's like winning the lottery. 

 

14 teams not 16

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Weird how an actual good QB isn't worth a 1st yet Darnold and Wentz are lol. 

Cousins has proven he can’t win in high pressure situations nor can he win without every other cog in the offense thriving. He’s a 32 year old QB with talent but no poise. People have been waiting for ten years for him to finally prove who they think he is. News flash: it ain’t happening. 
 

Darnold, I don’t see anyone contemplating a first for him, Wentz, I can see it. He’s led a team to a a super bowl (didn’t win it for injury, but led them there), he’s shown he can take over games and prior to this season has shown he can at least look good with no talent around him. The injury would be the primary reason the Eagles can’t get a first.

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

I watched exactly 0% of the Jets, but statistically Darnold was basically Haskins - aka trash. I'd vomit unless we get him for a day 3 pick, in which case I'd root for Heinicke to win the camp battle.    

 

If you watched him you wouldn't feel much better.  I typically watch at least 3-4 Jets games a year.   Think of a game manager type -- short passes -- ala Alex Smith.  Yet, unlike Alex he struggles with his accuracy with the conservative stuff and makes mistake after mistake.

[The Consigliere]

36 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@The Consigliere I hear you on including Chase for Watson/top qb of the draft.  Obviously it’s not going to happen, so moot point, but playing along with the point...

I think the problem becomes valuation for me.  Chase isn’t just a 1st rounder, or even a high 1s rounder.  He proved why he was seen as the best player in the draft.  He looks like he’s becoming the face of the franchise, and his infectious style/leadership are essentially a force multiplier for the team.  He also plays maybe the 2nd most important position in the game.  All told, I honestly don’t know that I trade him for 3 1st rounders, given the bust rate of 1st rounders or chance a 1s rounder lives up to their draft position.  Odds are even higher (I believe) that a top of the draft qb doesn’t become a franchise qb.  

Trading Chase for a top qb?  I could maybe see it, depending on their age, contract, injury history, etc.  

Trading him for the chance to draft a potential top qb?  I don’t like the odds there.  I’m open to trading anyone else for this chance though.  It would be tough to replace Sweat for example, but it’s at least possible.

 

I should be clear here though, by top of the draft qb, I’m not including Lawrence.  Chase for the #1 pick (maybe slightly more), I could probably(?) get on board with. 

 

What do I know though.

 

 

He wasn't the best player, Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow were. No matter what Chase can do (and he can do a lot), Burrow (if he hits and the Bengals don't wreck him) and Herbert right now are infinitely more valuable because one is a franchise QB and one looked like one. I'm a Tua backer, so I believe he'll pan out, but so far he hasn't looked like pre injury Tua so I get the skepticism (whether miami was babying (clearly) or lacked the personel (clearly), or he just isn't the same (possibly), but for all the things Chase does, in the room, with chemistry, and on the field in terms of production, and attention, he still doesn't trump what a franchise QB can do in terms of domino effect, 

 

You make a good argument for why I would be scared to include him in a deal for Fields (which is why I wouldn't also give a first). I would include him for Lawrence, because Lawrence is clearly a once a decade, Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, John Elway top QB talent. I'd trade him for Watson as well due to age. 

 

I agree, he's basically a #1 overall pick and a generational type talent, and he hit and he's got four cheap years left on his deal. You only include him for top of the line guys. I would for Fields because I believe in Fields, but I also would've last year for Tua or for Herbert straight up so there's that too. 

 

I get why if you trade him, though, he should mitigate a huge portion of the cost for a QB. I also get that it isn't happening anyway. 

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you watched him you wouldn't feel much better.  I typically watch at least 3-4 Jets games a year.   Think of a game manager type -- short passes -- ala Alex Smith.  Yet, unlike Alex he struggles with his accuracy with the conservative stuff and makes mistake after mistake.

 

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Ugh. All things considered if a guy is throwing a lot of picks, I'd hope it's because he's pushing the ball down the field and taking too many risks. You can probably coach that out of them. But to have the turnover issues he's had while playing conservatively is enough to make me lose interest. Oh well, like I said - if he's had for a day 3 pick, then sure you can take a low-risk bet on Zampese working some magic with him. But for a high pick? Hell no.

[Burgundy Yoda]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Cousins has proven he can’t win in high pressure situations nor can he win without every other cog in the offense thriving. He’s a 32 year old QB with talent but no poise. People have been waiting for ten years for him to finally prove who they think he is. News flash: it ain’t happening. 
 

Darnold, I don’t see anyone contemplating a first for him, Wentz, I can see it. He’s led a team to a a super bowl (didn’t win it for injury, but led them there), he’s shown he can take over games and prior to this season has shown he can at least look good with no talent around him. The injury would be the primary reason the Eagles can’t get a first.

Cousins is what he is, but that doesn't mean he isn't worth a 1st. I tell you, if he did have poise and more mobility the guy would easily be worth multiple 1sts. His ball placement and accuracy, and ability to kneel the ball instead of spiking it in crucial moments are top tier. 

 

Any team that gives up a 1st for Darnold or Wentz will be firing their GM within 3 years. Wentz is completely broken IMO. 

[fearlessNelms]

14 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Philadelphia would not trade Wentz within the division. I'm guessing it's Indy.

 

100% agree. When Reid traded McNabb to us he knew that McNabb was washed up or simply overrated and fleeced Snyder and/or Shanahan. QB's that are young and are believed to still have gas in the tank do not get traded inside the division.

[carex]

4 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

He wasn't the best player, Justin Herbert and Joe Burrow were. No matter what Chase can do (and he can do a lot), Burrow (if he hits and the Bengals don't wreck him) and Herbert right now are infinitely more valuable because one is a franchise QB and one looked like one. I'm a Tua backer, so I believe he'll pan out, but so far he hasn't looked like pre injury Tua so I get the skepticism (whether miami was babying (clearly) or lacked the personel (clearly), or he just isn't the same (possibly), but for all the things Chase does, in the room, with chemistry, and on the field in terms of production, and attention, he still doesn't trump what a franchise QB can do in terms of domino effect, 

 

 

Herbert wasn't even the second QB taken

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, UK Skins said:

Why do people keep saying trade Chase Young for XYZ??

 

The top D-Lineman in the game and maybe the best overall player in the NFL; Aaron Donald, has 0 Superbowls wins. (0-1)

 

If you go down the top edge rushers, you'll find maybe a Superbowl here or there. Maybe. (Mack = 0, Bosa Bros = 0, Watt Bros = 0, Myles Garrett = 0, Chandler Jones = 0, Za'Darius Smith = 0, Danielle Hunter = 0, etc)

 

And not saying Barrett/JPP or Jones/Clark are some scrubs, but they're in the Superbowl obviously because of their QBs.

 

 

I'm not advocating trading Chase Young, or any of our D-Line, but if you're not winning Superbowls in this era without a QB. 

 

[tmandoug1]

16 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

Guys, all this discussion is interesting, but most of you are missing the point. WFT does not need to be looking for a QB. There is a superb winning QB on the roster right now. TH is a baller and always has been. As a high school senior he was the Florida Gator Aid offensive player of the year. I watched him for four years at Old Dominion where he passed almost 15,000 yards, ran for over 1,300, had a 67.7% completion percentage, threw for 132 TDs, averaging 33 TD passes per year, ran for another 22 TDs, compiled an overall 155.9 passer rating and was the Walter Payton Award winner (the FCS equivalent of the Heisman). He even punted from the shotgun for something like a 47.0 average.

 

Year	Passing								Rushing
	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	TD	Int	Rtg	Att	Yds	Avg	TD
Career[21]	1,238	1,829	67.7%	14,959	8.2	132	39	155.9	367	1,320	3.6	22
2011	211	307	68.7%	2,385	7.8	25	1	160.2	68	363	5.3	4
2012	398	579	68.7%	5,076	8.8	44	14	162.6	126	470	3.7	11
2013	340	486	70.0%	4,022	8.3	33	8	158.6	93	348	3.7	5
2014	289	457	63.2%	3,476	7.6	30	16	141.8	80	139	1.7	2

 

For a variety of reasons, he has had limited opportunity in the NFL, but what you saw of him against the Panthers and the Bucs is who he is. It's like he told Chase Young, "That's what I do" -- and believe me it is what he does. I really hope RR gives him the opportunity to be the starter next year. We will all be happy if he does. 

Did he miss any games during this time frame.....I am all for it if he didn't miss a bunch of games.

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Cousins is what he is, but that doesn't mean he isn't worth a 1st. I tell you, if he did have poise and more mobility the guy would easily be worth multiple 1sts. His ball placement and accuracy, and ability to kneel the ball instead of spiking it in crucial moments are top tier. 

 

Any team that gives up a 1st for Darnold or Wentz will be firing their GM within 3 years. Wentz is completely broken IMO. 

There’s a better chance Cousins would be flat out released than he gets traded for a first. No team wants him despite reports of the contrary. Minny signed him because they thought like so many here - that you put him in an ideal situation and he’ll thrive. He didn’t. And no other team will make the same mistake. If SF foolishly vies for his services, it’ll destroy that team.

 

no one will give up a first for Darnold. Wentz, I believe a team will. It’s not like he’s David Carr who was ruined almost immediately because Houston’s line couldn’t protect him. Wentz has success in the NfL. He’s shell-shocked now but a competent offensive line and traditional run game like in Indy would be the ideal cure for his temporary mental fragility. It’s not like it’s a top ten pick. It’s still a late first. The difference between a question mark cornerback (for example) and a competent QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Ugh. All things considered if a guy is throwing a lot of picks, I'd hope it's because he's pushing the ball down the field and taking too many risks. You can probably coach that out of them. But to have the turnover issues he's had while playing conservatively is enough to make me lose interest. Oh well, like I said - if he's had for a day 3 pick, then sure you can take a low-risk bet on Zampese working some magic with him. But for a high pick? Hell no.

 

The thing is with Darnold is even if i bought into the narrative of you never know, roll the dice on potential, etc.  With him it looks like you have to give up at least a 2nd round pick like the Dolphins foolishly did for Rosen.  And you got the 5th year looming where you got to kick in a big time pay raise to keep him.  And you got his history of injury concerns.  So you are risking more with Darnold than other potential reclamation projects. 

 

It would be one thing for me if i specifically heard some reasons why some of the ones (especially media) push Darnold that relates to his actual game.  But the refrain always seems to be the dude was a high draft pick and played for the Jets -- enough said.  Well fine.  We could say the same about Mark Sanchez who actually played better than Darnold did in NY but still he didn't go on to prove that the Jets were the reason why he was kept down when he bounced around the league after he left. 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

Guys, all this discussion is interesting, but most of you are missing the point. WFT does not need to be looking for a QB. There is a superb winning QB on the roster right now. TH is a baller and always has been.

 

It seems like Rivera has already decided he's perhaps the right backup for the team but not the right starter.  If he changed his mind on that and came out and said Heinicke is the answer, I'd be all in.  But they clearly don't see him that way.  I don't think we'd have all this Qb debate if we were convinced the FO/Rivera thought the answers for sure were in house and were out of the Qb chase.   They aren't offering picks for Stafford and saying they plan to be aggressive to get a QB if they were convinced in house that Heinicke is the guy.

 

I do wonder if faith in him would be higher if he found a way to bulk up.  I am gathering based on some comments from beat guys that a prime concern about Heinicke is his ability to make it through a season without getting hurt. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am gathering based on some comments from beat guys that a prime concern about Heinicke is his ability to make it through a season without getting hurt. 

 

Did you listen to Keim's interview w/ Ron where he asked about Heinicke? I don't think the primary concern is actually durability, though it is one of them. Ron wants to see what Heinicke can do when the stakes are raised / there are consequences. He called his play "spectacular" in the opportunities he's had, but those have been in "got nothing to lose" situations. So to me, I don't think he's ruled out Heinicke as a starter at all. I think he just wants to see the camp battle play out first.

[Skinsinparadise]

@RWJ

 

lol, just for you Rivera did say here he does have a specific plan for QB. 😀

 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm OK with the Eagles trading Wentz, even if it's for a first. It will screw up their cap big time and even though it's a very remote possibility we've seen how good he can be, pre injury that is.  I know Hurts is not the answer so I'm fine if they want to ship Wentz out of town rather than see him return to close to his former self.  Again as remote as that possibility is it still exists.  

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Did you listen to Keim's interview w/ Ron where he asked about Heinicke? I don't think the primary concern is actually durability, though it is one of them. Ron wants to see what Heinicke can do when the stakes are raised / there are consequences. He called his play "spectacular" in the opportunities he's had, but those have been in "got nothing to lose" situations. So to me, I don't think he's ruled out Heinicke as a starter at all. I think he just wants to see the camp battle play out first.

 

I did hear it.  I also heard from 2 different beat guys that sources with the team told them they have concerns about his durability.  I've posted about it before.   

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@RWJ

 

lol, just for you Rivera did say here he does have a specific plan for QB. 😀

 

 

 

Who is that woman?  I don't watch these shows but that may need to change. 

[CapsSkins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I did hear it.  I also heard from 2 different beat guys that sources with them team told them they have concerns about his durability.  I've posted about it before.   

 

I heard both those sources. One was Finlay who mentioned it somewhat off-handedly in his podcast after the WC game and the other was I think Keim. I don't think it's their chief concern. It's one of them, but I don't think they're looking at him purely as a backup. I think they'd rather have an upgrade if they can find one, but I think they'd say it's quite plausible TH can be the guy if he shows enough in camp (re: both durability and sustained performance).

[heyholetsgogrant]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@RWJ

 

lol, just for you Rivera did say here he does have a specific plan for QB. 😀

 

 

 

Takeaways:

"We have a plan for QB"
"We want to emulate the Andy Reid model"  🤔...Reid had a QB's though - McNabb, Smith, and Now Mahomes. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant

[The Consigliere]

36 minutes ago, carex said:

 

Herbert wasn't even the second QB taken

 

I know this. The poster made reference to him being the best player in the draft. Now, in retrospect, he definitely wouldn't go top 2. Herbert would go 1, and Burrow 2. That's my point. Obviously last year, there were a ton of question marks (though in fairness, going into the season he was the #2 ranked QB in that class, it's just Burrow turned in one of the best, if not the best seasons in the history of college football, while Herbert didn't improve significantly if at all, and so his stock ticked down a touch). 

[KDawg]

50 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

Guys, all this discussion is interesting, but most of you are missing the point. WFT does not need to be looking for a QB. There is a superb winning QB on the roster right now. TH is a baller and always has been. As a high school senior he was the Florida Gator Aid offensive player of the year. I watched him for four years at Old Dominion where he passed almost 15,000 yards, ran for over 1,300, had a 67.7% completion percentage, threw for 132 TDs, averaging 33 TD passes per year, ran for another 22 TDs, compiled an overall 155.9 passer rating and was the Walter Payton Award winner (the FCS equivalent of the Heisman). He even punted from the shotgun for something like a 47.0 average.

 

Year	Passing								Rushing
	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	TD	Int	Rtg	Att	Yds	Avg	TD
Career[21]	1,238	1,829	67.7%	14,959	8.2	132	39	155.9	367	1,320	3.6	22
2011	211	307	68.7%	2,385	7.8	25	1	160.2	68	363	5.3	4
2012	398	579	68.7%	5,076	8.8	44	14	162.6	126	470	3.7	11
2013	340	486	70.0%	4,022	8.3	33	8	158.6	93	348	3.7	5
2014	289	457	63.2%	3,476	7.6	30	16	141.8	80	139	1.7	2

 

For a variety of reasons, he has had limited opportunity in the NFL, but what you saw of him against the Panthers and the Bucs is who he is. It's like he told Chase Young, "That's what I do" -- and believe me it is what he does. I really hope RR gives him the opportunity to be the starter next year. We will all be happy if he does. 

 

Not that I disagree with Heinicke's ability and potential, it HAS to be acknowledged that he has had three NFL starts and has gotten hurt in all three. He plays a reckless style and he has a smaller frame. 

 

His sample size is small. You can't go into the season relying on him without trying for an obvious upgrade (this disqualifies Darnold who is also injury prone and a littany of other guys in my opinion). But if he can stay healthy I am comfortable with him for the moment at QB.

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Did you listen to Keim's interview w/ Ron where he asked about Heinicke? I don't think the primary concern is actually durability, though it is one of them. Ron wants to see what Heinicke can do when the stakes are raised / there are consequences. He called his play "spectacular" in the opportunities he's had, but those have been in "got nothing to lose" situations. So to me, I don't think he's ruled out Heinicke as a starter at all. I think he just wants to see the camp battle play out first.

I understand this. One thing I was critical of Seattle for was giving the big contract to Matt Flynn where he had 6 TDs in one game. It was great and something you want in a QB but its nothing about how he'll perform in the long run. And as we saw he didn't continue to play well at all. Given, it was a new system and a new team and a bunch of other things but its something to consider. Another example is Kyle Allen in Carolina. He was looking like a worldbeater in 2019 until he fell off a cliff. Maybe it was just him hitting a wall or teams having film on him and him needing to readjust or a number of other things, but Kyle Allen's first four games he had ratings of 144, 89, 85, 104. Then it goes to 28, 84, 84, 47, 112, 81, 76, 58, 72. Not saying he was an all pro, or is now a bum but he looked elite in those first four games and people were saying all kinds of things about how much of a steal he was, him being the future, etc. But since then he mellowed out. 

 

What does this mean for Heinicke? I hope he's the truth, but I think we need a backup plan. Allen is one, but the more I read about it the more I'm liking a guy like Kellen Mond. I think he's a guy we can get with a lower round pick. He's a 4 year starter who's gotten better every year. He's mobile. He has an arm. His biggest problem is that he's inconsistent. I think that's just what we need for a QB to groom. So we can start the season with Allen&Heinicke and then play Mond in a year or two if they don't prove to be franchise guys. 

[CommDownMan]

56 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

I could see the Bears taking a swing at Wentz, and sending Foles back to Philly.  Bears GM and HC are both on the hot seat.  Need a QB and otherwise have a good roster.

 

Would be positive PR in Philly to get Foles back.  Take some of the sting away from trading Wentz.

 

No way Foles would stay in Chicago if Wentz is there.

 

Total guess ...

 

 

I did see a Chicago rumor and it would make sense.  Philly and Foles without Pederson...  I wonder if that would generate the same buzz.  Interesting idea at least.