Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

This is just not true. We still have fans referencing Trent Dilfer or Gibbs' 3 rings with 3 different QBs, there is still a large population of the fan base that still believes the way to go is build a great roster and then slap on a mediocre QB.  This still boggles my mind but that opinion is pretty active.  

The way to go is to build an adequate roster and find a franchise QB without mortgaging the future. 
 

Right now we have none of those things.

 

I’d argue our “great” defense was just “okay” and shined more against teams who struggled to run or abandoned it.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@Skinsinparadise I've got to think the most logical spot for him is Indianapolis with Frank Reich. Really interested to see what the compensation swap is given the size of the Wentz' contract.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Finlay he just said that of the three QBs on the roster he's most confident that Heinicke will be here.  But said they see him as the backup not the starter.

7 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@Skinsinparadise I've got to think the most logical spot for him is Indianapolis with Frank Reich. Really interested to see what the compensation swap is given the size of the Wentz' contract.

 

Agree and I'd bet its for their first

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Finlay he just said that of the three QBs on the roster he's most confident that Heinicke will be here.  But said they see him as the backup not the starter.

Rivera did say that solidifying the #2 spot was also important. He also said Allen was very much part of what we are doing here. Can’t see us losing the rights to him when it’s a 1mil deal, still only young, 5th rounder given for him, feels like the injury may linger but I’ll be shocked if he’s not around in 2021.

[PartyPosse]

I can see Wentz to Colts for a first and Parris Campbell.

[mhd24]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Finlay he just said that of the three QBs on the roster he's most confident that Heinicke will be here.  But said they see him as the backup not the starter.

 

Agree and I'd bet it for their first

 

 

I don't see Indy trading a 1st for Wentz (given his contract).  LA had to trade a 1st to unload Goff.  Wentz is worth at best a 2nd.

 

I could see Paris Campbell+3rd honestly.  Who else is taking that contract?  Indy has the cap room and the QB slot available.  Indy has all the leverage.

 

[heyholetsgogrant]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

This is just not true. We still have fans referencing Trent Dilfer or Gibbs' 3 rings with 3 different QBs, there is still a large population of the fan base that still believes the way to go is build a great roster and then slap on a mediocre QB.  This still boggles my mind but that opinion is pretty active.  

I don't think you're being fair and you're minimizing defenses and variance. You left out, Foles, Flacco, and Brad Johnson who all won a SB relatively recently. Also, Eli Manning a .500 QB, who led the league with INT's 3 times, won 2 SB's relatively recently. I wouldn't put in him as an all time great.  Brady has won 6 SB's and been to 10, how many Brady like QB's are in the league?

Edited February 5, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant

[mhd24]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

I can see Wentz to Colts for a first and Parris Campbell.

 

LOL, you beat me to the adding Paris Campbell.  But, I don't think there is anyway Wentz garners a 1st by himself.

 

Maybe its Wentz+Philly 2nd for Indy 1st.

[UK Skins]

Why do people keep saying trade Chase Young for XYZ?? I literally can't remember a Redskins player that has been so dominant straight out of the gate (even Sean Taylor took a while to shine). The accolades and awards he got this season feel unprecedented (for a Redskins player anyway), plus the respect his team-mates and other teams seem to have for him mark him out as a truly special player. Short of a straight swap for Watson can we just give up on the trade Young talk. Please!

[Darrell Green Fan]

Just now, heyholetsgogrant said:

I don't think you're being fair and you're minimizing defenses and variance. You left out, Foles, Flacco, and Brad Johnson who all won a SB relatively recently. Also, Eli Manning a .500 QB, who led the league with INT's 3 times, won 2 SB's. I wouldn't put in him as an all time great.  Brady has won 6 SB's and been to 10, how many Brady like QB's are in the league?

 

Thanks for showing that your opinion is still shared by many, which was my main point. I'm not going to debate it, that's been done enough.  But my main point was that not everyone here believes in the Franchise QB Theory.  

1 minute ago, UK Skins said:

Why do people keep saying trade Chase Young for XYZ?? I literally can't remember a Redskins player that has been so dominant straight out of the gate (even Sean Taylor took a while to shine). The accolades and awards he got this season feel unprecedented (for a Redskins player anyway), plus the respect his team-mates and other teams seem to have for him mark him out as a truly special player. Short of a straight swap for Watson can we just give up on the trade Young talk. Please!

 

They were never suggesting trading Chase for XYZ, he was only mentioned in what would be a package Houston would accept for a young top 5 QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Rivera did say that solidifying the #2 spot was also important. He also said Allen was very much part of what we are doing here. Can’t see us losing the rights to him when it’s a 1mil deal, still only young, 5th rounder given for him, feels like the injury may linger but I’ll be shocked if he’s not around in 2021.

 

Finlay stressed that Rivera stressed that the #2 QB on the team is very important.  Seemed like Rivera was giving more plug to Heinicke over Allen in recent interviews of i am judging by mentions.  When Rivera mentioned leadership and players following them I noticed he said Alex and Heinicke but didn't say Allen.  Maybe its a concidence but i noticed and commented on it at the time. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[UK Skins]

DGF, I have seen several people suggesting trading Chase

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I don't see Indy trading a 1st for Wentz (given his contract).  LA had to trade a 1st to unload Goff.  Wentz is worth at best a 2nd.

 

I could see Paris Campbell+3rd honestly.  Who else is taking that contract?  Indy has the cap room and the QB slot available.  Indy has all the leverage.

 

 

I am guessing Reich sees Wentz as a better Qb than Goff.  Wentz isn't a Darnold story where he's mostly struggled.  Wentz has been really good until this season.  I'd put money that he doesn't just fetch a third and change. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

But my main point was that not everyone here believes in the Franchise QB Theory.  

 

Agree.  Yeah there is definitely a contingent on this thread who believes in the game manager and or flier at QB and just build a stellar supporting cast and win a SB that way.  I've debated them so I recall it.  To each their own on that.

 

The one thing I'll say is listening to Rivera i am convinced he isn't in that game manager camp and believes you got a ceiling with that method.  I do think you can squeak in the playoffs that way from time to time but the odds for a SB or even consistent winning seasons are slim.  I recal this point was hyped up on a thread the most the year where Bortles almost took the Jags to the SB.  Yet they fell off the map big after that.  Like that, you can have a lucky season from time to time but SB is doubtful and consistent winning IMO is doubtful too.   

 

But I got no doubt that Alex/Allen can mimic the Mark Brunell/Todd Collins run of Gibbs 2.  Back then it was a good O line.  Mostly good defense.  Good running game.  One good season went to one bad season to one good again, etc. Maybe win a playoff game but likely just one.  Something like that.  At the moment, i think we are on a track like that unless we find a Qb. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Finlay stressed that Rivera stressed that the #2 QB on the team is very important.  Seemed like Rivera was giving more plug to Heinicke over Allen in recent interviews of i am judging by mentions.  When Rivera mentioned leadership and players following them I noticed he said Alex and Heinicke but didn't say Allen.  Maybe its a concidence but i noticed and commented on it at the time. 

 

There has been so much discussion from local sports media guys on Heinicke and nothing, nada on Allen to point I really think if he's in the plans he gets buried on IR until they need him.

 

 

Reinforcing a lot of discussion here around the topic of Watson.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by HigSkin

[UK Skins]

SIP I think you hit the nail on the head with the "consistent winning" point. A game manager can definitely get you to a SB, and even win it, but like you say, regular Playoff appearances needs that bit more. If you look at the SB odds every year, it is (or was now I guess) Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Mahomes, Roetheslsberger (sp?) and maybe one more. Every year. And every year those teams are in the Playoffs.

 

That's what I want too. I'm just not sure how we do it.

[The Consigliere]

24 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

DGF, I have seen several people suggesting trading Chase

 

I didn't realize other people were saying it. I emphatically am saying it, if it can get us Watson, Lawrence or Fields so long as it mitigates the pick cost. I did not want Chase over a QB last year, and I don't want Chase, if he's the one thing blocking a deal for a Watson, or a Lawrence or Fields this year either. 

 

Chase is immaterial w/o a franchise QB also on the roster. Chase+no franchise QB equals franchise irrelevance. I'm absolutely fine w/trading him in a package to try to get a franchise QB.

 

I will not back off of it in the sense that I think it's patently obvious it would make sense if it landed us a legit franchise guy, or the chance to draft one w/that potential.

 

However I've always tried to attach the addendums:

 

#1 Only if it dramatically mitigates the cost of a trade in terms of picks.

 

#2 I do think a bit of wariness of trading players versus picks with the snyder pnealty coming up is a concern.

 

#3 I see ZERO chance of a trade including Chase happening. I could see other DL's and players, but I think there's no chance of it happening. None whatsoever, I just think it should be considered if it reduces the cost of a trade. Just bear in mind, those of you who think it won't happen or it shouldn't, I agree with the former take 100%. I don't think there's any chance we trade Chase for anything. I just think we should, if we can use it to get the right QB. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

32 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

DGF, I have seen several people suggesting trading Chase

Yes in the context of a package as I described. Nobody was suggesting trading Chase Young for "XYZ" as you contend.  

Edited February 5, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[HigSkin]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Great, another team ahead of us in the draft that might take a QB.  Sheesh...

[The Consigliere]

2 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

SIP I think you hit the nail on the head with the "consistent winning" point. A game manager can definitely get you to a SB, and even win it, but like you say, regular Playoff appearances needs that bit more. If you look at the SB odds every year, it is (or was now I guess) Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Mahomes, Roetheslsberger (sp?) and maybe one more. Every year. And every year those teams are in the Playoffs.

 

That's what I want too. I'm just not sure how we do it.

 

Yep, as noted in my run down of the QB's playing in conference title games in the aught-teens (2011-2020). 60% of the QB's were the same guys over and over and over (Brady, Wilson, Manning, Rodgers, Ben Roth etc), and of the remaining 40%, nearly all of them were high first rounders. I think it was basically just a touch of 10% of conference championship QB's were game managers. 

 

The game manager with a team built around him is a set up that nearly never works, and secondly, the rare instances it does work tend to be both a byproduct of a highly stable and sound organization (Baltimore, SF with the Debartalo/York family), and with a team with a hyper talented defense and loaded with playmakers on offense and an OL. They tend to be perfectly built teams everywhere else, and that's nearly impossible to do with our ownership. It's just not an option. We need the cheat code of a QB because we have the worst owner in the league (being kind, at best he's a bottom 3 to 5 owner, for me he's clearly the worst), and constant F.O. instability (and for those that say, "nuh, uh, we got Rivera now, I just point to Schotty, Gibbs II and Shanny years never lasting more than what, 1-5 seasons, that would put us at 4 years left max, most quality guys can't hang in here that long). 

 

The game manager approach is a non-starter, period. It will not work here. Pretending it will is a fool's errand. 

[HigSkin]

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

2 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Great, another team ahead of us in the draft that might take a QB.  Sheesh...

 

Maybe, but I would think they either do this trade expecting Hurts to be their starter and just put Wentz situation behind them ... OR ... this opens them up to using the Colts 1st (speculative) and #6 to move up to #2 or #3 and taking Fields or Wilson. And in that scenario, Hurts becomes available, although likely not to us as a division rival.

 

I think the first scenario is most realistic. Eagles use #6 on a WR and the 1st from Colts on a TE or CB, while riding Hurts for a year to see what they've got. Actually, if that's their plan (riding Wentz) they might be better off asking the Colts for their 2022 1st instead of the 2021 1st so they have ammo to trade up next year for a QB if Hurts flops.

[Stefanskins]

2 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Yep, per Spotrac those are the ballpark APY contract values. They have Robinson at 20, Godwin, JuJu and Golladay at 17. Davis at 12, etc.

lol remember just 4 years ago how outrageous it was to pay Kirk $20 mill a year??

Edited February 5, 2021 by Stefanskins
outrageous

[HigSkin]

I, yi, yi....