Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[JSSkinz]

Its funny that everytime someone posts stats or analytics Kirk is in the top 10, it doesn't even make sense that a QB can play at that level and not be able to consistently produce wins.

[kingdaddy]

Just now, JSSkinz said:

Its funny that everytime someone posts stats or analytics Kirk is in the top 10, it doesn't even make sense that a QB can play at that level and not be able to consistently produce wins.

I always refer to the lengthy ESPN article on Kirk when we wouldn't extend him to a long term deal. The jist of the article was that Kirk clearly lacked confidence to the point where he refused to make certain throws in the offense where Gruden insisted that he make the throw. It was passes in tight windows and other throws that were out of Cousins comfort zone. It was a telling article with some direct quotes from Gruden where the organization/coaching staff just didn't think Kirk was worth the long term investment. Kirk has lost multiple must win games in both Washington and Minnesota to the point where it's a recurring theme. If you haven't read it and you get a chance it tells you a lot about KC and how he has battled confidence issues. throughout his football life, not just in the pro's. 

[heyholetsgogrant]

8 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Its funny that everytime someone posts stats or analytics Kirk is in the top 10, it doesn't even make sense that a QB can play at that level and not be able to consistently produce wins.

That's a fair point, but I think defenses are more important than most people realize. Both cousins and carr have some of the worse defenses in the league. I believe both tampa and KC are top 10. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant

[dyst]

1 hour ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

 

 

I agree.

[Skinsinparadise]

The 38-year-old QB helped the Miami Dolphins to the doorstep of the postseason despite getting yo-yoed in and out of the lineup in favor of Tua Tagovailoa. In nine appearances, the man known as FitzMagic completed a career-high 68.5 percent of his passes for 2,091 yards and 13 TDs to eight INTs.

The experience in Miami left the veteran gunslinger knowing he still has more left in the tank to play a 17th campaign. During an interview on The Pat McAfee Show on Tuesday, Fitzpatrick noted the quarterback market could be crazy this year.

"This offseason, we already saw it with (Jared) Goff and (Matthew) Stafford obviously," Fitzpatrick said of the QB shuffle this offseason. "Who knows what's going to happen with Deshaun (Watson). There's rumors everywhere in the quarterback market, but there are a lot of teams looking for a new quarterback or new quarterbacks. So, for me, personally, I have to take every offseason now, and just reassess. And I know, these last two years have really re-lit that fire under me, and I still want to play, and I enjoy being out there playing."

Presuming Fitzpatrick intends to play in 2021, there could be a decent number of suitors looking for a veteran signal-caller who has experience as a bridge to a young QB and can win games in the process.

Fitzpatrick has played for eight NFL teams during his first 16 years. With Miami plowing forward with Tua, FitzMagic could make it a ninth club.

"Things are a little bit more complicated for me now, with my oldest going into high school and six little ones trailing behind him," Fitzpatrick said. "So there is a lot of thought that has to go into this thing, but I still love playing the game."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[carex]

28 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Why are we even talking about Cam? Last season when he had no QB outside of a recovering Alex Smith, Ron still didn't bring in Cam when he was available. He clearly isn't interested.

 

 

we were never in that position, because we had Dwayne Haskins

[carex]

14 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

That's a fair point, but I think defenses are more important than most people realize. Both cousins and carr have some of the worse defenses in the league. I believe both tampa and KC are top 10. 

 

Isn't Kirk kinda streaky too?  Like when he's good, he's very good and when he's bad he's very bad.  Which allows for padding of stats

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Why are people still so fixated on Cam? Did you not watch a single game he played this past year? He's completely washed. Heinecke is legitimately better than him right now.

Why are you so fixated on calling people out for discussing Cam?  Hmm?  J/K bro.

 

 

My post on him already laid out my questions so I’m not going to go through them again, but the gist was what do people mean when they say he is (I’ll use your term) ‘washed’?  Also, are whatever his issues are now permanent?

Edited February 4, 2021 by skinny21

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Standig's podcast now, he thinks they will make a serious move on QB this year, versus punt it to next year. 

[skinny21]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Standig's podcast now, he thinks they will make a serious move on QB this year, versus punt it to next year. 

Makes sense, though I’d be fine with punting, depending on circumstances.  Wasn’t sure I bought the we can always try again next year, even though it’s the right thing to say.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Makes sense, though I’d be fine with punting, depending on circumstances.  Wasn’t sure I bought the we can always try again next year, even though it’s the right thing to say.

 

Ironic you say it that way. that's what he said too he doesn't buy it.  He thinks that's Rivera's coach speak kicking in

[CapsSkins]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ironic you say it that way. that's what he said too he doesn't buy it.  He thinks that's Rivera's coach speak kicking in

 

Also "we're not going to mortgage the future" is pretty obvious messaging to keep credibility for lower trade offers. If you publicly declare "we will move heaven and earth to find our guy" then obviously trade partners will ask for higher prices knowing your Willingness to Pay is high.

 

Credible leaks are worth more than public statements. But it can be hard to get any clarity w/ credible leaks. It's okay, we'll find out one way or another.   

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ironic you say it that way. that's what he said too he doesn't buy it.  He thinks that's Rivera's coach speak kicking in

Of course, the flip side is the FO doesn’t want to kick themselves in the gonads with a huge trade, so I think there’s a legit chance they’re essentially forced to punt even if that’s not what they want to do.  They may well have to roll with Cam* simply due to cost for trading up or for acquiring Watson/Carr.  

 

* I don’t usually like to trigger people, but when I do, I like to do it in style

[CapsSkins]

I think they'd prefer Gimpy Alex to Gimpy Cam, but who knows. It certainly isn't Plan A, B, C, or D.

[mistertim]

44 minutes ago, carex said:

 

we were never in that position, because we had Dwayne Haskins

 

But Ron could have gotten Cam for pretty cheap and without giving up draft picks. Instead, he gave up a 5th round pick for Kyle Allen. I think it's pretty clear that he's not interested in Cam.

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

@RWJ

Finlay elaborated on what he meant by they don't know what they are going to do.  He said by that is they don't know who hits the market and how everything is going to flow just yet.  The uncertainty is because the market is still uncertain.   More names might emerge on the market, etc.  Draft could be in play.  he said he checked around and isn't as convinced they'd trade up for Fields.   He also said he doesn't think they'd sign Cam.

Thanks SIP.  Always enjoy your and HigSkin's post.  Always happy to see both of your post because they have meat and meaning to them.  I will say this and please take it the right way.  You can't just have a Plan A (Stafford) and not a Plan B or Plan C.  Know what I mean?  One has to have a backup plan or as I had a mentor at work tell me a backup to the backup.  Miss that fella that taught me that.  Make sense though and the WFT team did not at least as we know. Maybe they do undercover and are not saying it but it seems like they put all their chips on the table for Stafford.  Like have 3 guys targeted go to the teams and work out a trade and already have your value set then negotiate from there.  I don't mean to sound like a broken record.  Hopefully, the are doing their due diligence on that now.

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Standig's podcast now, he thinks they will make a serious move on QB this year, versus punt it to next year. 

Hope so.  You will have hopefully read my last post to you.  Being more specific, if the Raiders are looking to trade Carr w/o sending him to Houston and simply want to save salary to sign other players whether their own or other FAs, we WFT start lower and go as high as our #19 and a 3rd this year and next or #19 and a conditional 2022 2nd that could become a 1st depending on Carr's stats etc..

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

I posted this elsewhere some of it is on QBs so for those interested. 

 

Listening to Jay on 106.7 and combining it with Standig.    Most of it was from the Standig podcast.  I know many here don't care for Jay but he has some insight about this roster, many of these guys were drafted when he was here. 

 

Some tidbits:

A.  Bruce/Dan had Haskins rated as the best Qb available when 15 came.  Jay and some others in the FO thought Haskins could be had later in the draft if that was the target, and he seemed to imply there were other QBs they thought they could have after the first round who were comparable

B.  Savage/Sweat is who he/FO guys liked at 15

C.  Jay wanted to keep Preston Smith

D.  Bruce/Dan were heavily involved in making decisions, they had final say

E.  They Jay/FO made most of the draft picks, but said a few times decisions were made that they had nothing to do with

F.  Thinks they blew it big as for getting nothing back for Kirk Cousins. They had interested teams willing to trade for Kirk.  He said they could have traded him easily, multiple suitors.  Felt they really blew it on that front.  He liked Kirk but felt he wanted to leave.  The implication there was the higher ups didn't want to move Kirk. 

G.  The Alex injury combined with the hefty contract really set the team back

H.  Qb is the be all and end all spot.  If you are set there its easier for everything else to fall into place

I.  Talked about there is more to the QB position then what you see watching a game -- getting the plays right, calling audibles, how the players react to them on and off the field

J.  If you are forced to keep players you don't want, it hurts the culture.  That's his biggest regret as to how things played out.   He didn't say which players he was referring to. 

 

He was asked about QBs.

A.   He really likes Winston.  Live arm, high upside.

B.   Dalton reminds him of Alex.  He says Dalton won't drive the ball down the field much but is efficient and can get the ball into his playmakers hands

C.  Liked what he saw from Heinicke, mobility in the pocket 

D.  Big fan of Derek Carr, top QB -- he'd jump to get him if he were the WFT.  His brother runs a complex offense and Carr has mastered it, smart dude

E.  He likes Mariota. He sees him as someone who relies on his speed and needs to show he can stay healthy

F.   Big on Deshaun Watson, saying you can win with that dude even without a stellar supporting cast -- the way he said it, I gather he meant receivers

Edited February 4, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Even if I had some level of interest in Jay's opinion (I don't), he's going to speak like a guy who wants to coach- he's not going to be very critical of any current players. He's just going to basically say he likes everyone, because he doesn't want to close any doors.

[RWJ]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He was asked about QBs.

A.   He really likes Winston.  Live arm, high upside.

B.   Dalton reminds him of Alex.  He says Dalton won't drive the ball down the field much but is efficient and can get the ball into his playmakers hands

C.  Liked what he saw from Heinicke, mobility in the pocket 

D.  Big fan of Derek Carr, top QB -- he'd jump to get him if he were the WFT.  His brother runs a complex offense and Carr has mastered it, smart dude

E.  He likes Mariota. He sees him as someone who relies on his speed and needs to show he can stay healthy

F.   Big on Deshaun Watson, saying you can win with that dude even without a stellar supporting cast -- the way he said it, I gather he meant receivers

Bolded and underline I agree with.

Edited February 4, 2021 by RWJ

[86 Snyder]

Is there some 4D chess going on with the Grudens?  Im curious why all of a sudden hes doing a tell some-not-all with 106.7 and pimping both Raiders QBs.  Is he trying to help out Jon and get a buzz going?

 

It could be absolutely nothing but between this and the reports about 2 1sts yesterday, the thought is crossing my mind.

[NYSkins21]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Is there some 4D chess going on with the Grudens?  Im curious why all of a sudden hes doing a tell some-not-all with 106.7 and pimping both Raiders QBs.  Is he trying to help out Jon and get a buzz going?

 

It could be absolutely nothing but between this and the reports about 2 1sts yesterday, the thought is crossing my mind.

Thought the same exact thing. I think it's totally plausible. Good for them exploiting that relationship if so but I don't think Ron and company would be persuaded by Jay. They have their own views on both QB's.

[86 Snyder]

20 minutes ago, NYSkins21 said:

Thought the same exact thing. I think it's totally plausible. Good for them exploiting that relationship if so but I don't think Ron and company would be persuaded by Jay. They have their own views on both QB's.

 

Agree completely that it wouldnt affect Rivera and the FO, but it does affect fan sentiment.  And theres a certain little dwarfy douche that IS persuaded by general buzz and fan opinion and has a tendency to get involved with decisions about the QB.

 

Actually thats 5D chess lol.  Its probably a reach but if Jay was the one to initiate with 106.7 then its suddenly very plausible.

[88Comrade2000]

We aren't going to be in the Watson race, woo hoo.  I figure we will be aggressive, in that we will look at QBS that are available via trade and free agency.  If we find a trade that doesn't mortgage the future; we will do it.  If we find someone in free agency, we will do it.  IF we think it's someone in the draft; then we will do it.    If the Team can find their QB and not mortgage their future; that's what they will do.   If they can't find anyone that doesn't require sacrificing picks; they will go with what they have with the change probably swapping Alex for some lower tier veteran.  Let that veteran, Kyle and Taylor compete.  We will look to find the long term answer in 22.

[CapsSkins]

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/AMPM7263617903?selected=AMPM1164746757

 

^Listened to Keim's interview with Ron. He asks about Heinicke and Ron gave an interesting answer: yes there's the durability concern, but more than that, Ron said in both chances Heinicke has had, he's been "spectacular". However, those have been situations in which he had nothing to lose. Ron heavily emphasized the idea of, "how's a player going to perform when there are consequences?" He brings up DBs who may have six picks in training camp practice, but then zero in a preseason game. Because in a game, there are consequences, and they play different.

 

Ron was very open / adamant that Heinicke will get an opportunity (of course, had we gotten Stafford that wouldn't have really been the case for the starting job). It sounds like if Heinicke can continue his performance, and stay healthy, he could well be the starting QB next year.

 

Ron also relatively plainly stated he wouldn't have been willing to pay what the Rams did for Stafford. He doesn't see the roster as a QB away and thus doesn't seem too eager to pay through the nose for a guy.

 

I think we'll ask around on a bunch of guys, but won't go above our valuations. Depending on how camp goes, we could very well be looking at Heinicke starting week 1!