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A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

JSSkinz

By JSSkinz
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TK
Message added by TK,

Pay Attention Knuckleheads

 

 

Has your team support wained due to ownership or can you see past it?  

229 members have voted

  1. 1. Will you attend a game and support the team while Dan Snyder is the owner of the team, regardless of success?

    • Yes
      47
    • No
      106
    • I would start attending games if Dan was no longer the owner of the team.
      77

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Jericho

Jericho

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Why isn't this guy a coach here ?

Ron's hired just about everyone else from Carolina. If anyone deserves this, he does.

He's like the Tony Romo version of Defense. He can predict every offensive play to the point he taunts them.

He's a football genius.

 

He's under contract in Carolina. He thought about coaching, but opted to get into scouting for now. While there is the Rivera connection, I'm sure its easier for him to stay in Carolina. But maybe he can be lured away down the road.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)

Read up some on Polian, the impresssion I get is its a mixed bag, he has plenty of experience for whatever that's worth.  I recall the Polians weren't beloved when they left Indy for their personalities. 

 

Twitter is funny on the FO spot of late as for fans - either this another great move, or this is a terrible move.  Good versus Bad.  Somehow Kyle Smith also gets either praised or destroyed.

 

I like Kyle Smith.  I like Ron.  I am going to give it a chance to play out.  Will see.  If it goes south then they deserve scorn, if it works works out then praise.  But for me I'll let the movie run some before jumping in hard with a take. 

 

 

I guess Breer likes it.  He and Schrager seem to pride themselves as plugged in on personnel people.  They seem to take the most dives into the topic along with JLC.   

 

For me, I don't know.  Lets see how it goes. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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wilco_holland

wilco_holland

Posted
Posted

Looks like we really wanted to add some weight to our FO. We bring in guys with experience but do be honest...is it working? 

 

I don't see how this collective group of new co-workers can find an amazing work relation during covid in such a short time before FA and draft. Why didn't we make changes in August. After most of the scouting season. Feels a bit odd. 

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Warhead36

Warhead36

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, wilco_holland said:

Looks like we really wanted to add some weight to our FO. We bring in guys with experience but do be honest...is it working? 

 

I don't see how this collective group of new co-workers can find an amazing work relation during covid in such a short time before FA and draft. Why didn't we make changes in August. After most of the scouting season. Feels a bit odd. 

The scouting work for this upcoming draft has more or less already been done.

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ANONYMOUS SOURCE.

ANONYMOUS SOURCE.

Posted
Posted

Everyone “usually” does one thing extremely well and is  adequate at the other things so hopefully the thinking is to divvy tasks up as such. Could be giving too much credit there so we will see lol. Possibly getting a bunch of names with weight to stop getting laughed at on the phone? Might be able to plan a killer Harvest fest ? Seems like kind of a top heavy staff which usually fights against smooth communication and cohesion which is what I thought we were shooting for. 🤷

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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

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Posted
On 2/13/2021 at 9:27 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

I know a couple people on this thread at a minimum intensely dislike Jay.  i wasn't sure about Jay the coach but I argued that he was given a bad hand like all coaches here.   but as a dude i like him, nice guy, fun and honest.  So for those who do care he took a deep drive into his tenure on Sheehan's podcast, a must listen IMO.  Some highlights:

I think it's safe to say I was one of Jay's harshest critics, if not the harshest critic on the board. In my defense, I started the criticism in 2015, so before most.  Though I've never said I didn't like him as a person.  Some stuff has come out about him personally which is troubling, however I'm not really sure how much of it is true, so I withhold judgement on that part of it.  I purely argue that as a football head coach, he was mediocre at best, and probably a lot worse.  And to back that up, I'd point out after being fired here, the best job offer he got was for a terrible Jags team where you kinda saw the writing on the wall that whole regime was in it's last year.  And he hasn't gotten a job this year.  Contrast that to Kyle Shanahan, who after being fired by Washington, got a job with the Browns, quit, and immediately got hired by the Falcons. Good coaches/coordinators tend not to be unemployed if they don't want to be.   Jay said he's looking to do some studio or color commentary work.  I actually think he'd be pretty good at that.  

 

With that said, I think this interview was extremely insightful, and is really be an "eye of the beholder" type of thing.  There are things Jay said where you could either argue, "Damn, he had a lot to deal with, poor guy" or the flip side "You made your bed, sleep in it." Clearly you know what camp I'm in. :) 

 

A few examples: 

- Jay said he was really ambivalent to the defensive coordinator (at least initially) because he thought the talent level was so poor, who the DC was didn't really matter. He said the defense was old and slow, and they needed to get more talent. And it didn't really matter who the DC was. (That's basically an exact quote) Some could read this as "he's right, the talent WAS poor, have to get that shored up first. Talent wins, and without talent, coaching really doesn't matter." Obviously, that's not my take. I read it as a complete admission Jay has absolutely no idea how to put together a winning coaching staff, or the value of good coaching in developing and getting the most out of the players you have on your roster WHILE you are developing talent. In fact, good coaching HELPS develop talent.  The two things are not mutually exclusive.  I think this was my biggest takeaway.  I personally found this entire part of the discussion extremely damning.  

 

- There was some really good stuff about DJax and Pierre.  The interesting story was the kneel down Kirk took at the end of the half in the Philly game, he placed squarely on DJax and Pierre, because apparently neither one of them ran the route called, and Kirk had nowhere to go with the ball, so he just took a knee. He said he earned his money in the locker-room after that.  I don't doubt it.  The story was pretty hysterical, to be honest.  And I really loved Jay's delivery of it.  And again, you could argue, "damn, 2 WRs blatantly didn't run their routes, what are you going to do?"  And then you have my take: This is a clear example of a horribly coached team.  Here's why:

 

  --  Jay KNEW Pierre didn't like back shoulder fades which was the play which was called, Pierre had a preference for where he wanted the ball, because that's where Peyton threw it, yadda yadda yadda.  We know Jay knew this because he said so.  And yet in the most critical of situations, he allowed a play to be in the game plan where the primary target didn't feel comfortable with the play.  McVay was the OC.  So there's actually a little on him too, but to me this falls on approach.  If you KNOW a player doesn't like a type of play, why the hell is it in your goal-line script?  In a well coached team, the play design is married with the personnel.  And this is just a stark example that Jay didn't force that concept.  He had an theory, and even if the players didn't like it or even execute it well, it could get in the game plan.  

 

  --  There's clearly no accountability.  If 2 players feel like they can just not run the play called without any consequences, the coach has done a piss-poor job of instilling discipline in the team.  Again, if it were me, you make sure the players are comfortable with the game-plan, and it maximizes their abilities.  But at times, you're going to ask players to do things which they don't want to do.  That's true in every job in the history of the world.  You can't just not do your job because you don't like it.  If I just told my boss, "yeah, I hate doing X, so I'm just going to stand here and watch us fail" I'd be fired.   Do you think there's a CHANCE if Ron was coaching the team, 2 WRS just stand there with their hands on their hips because they don't like the play call, giving the QB no options, so he just has to fall down?  I don't.  I think if it was Bill B. he might not let either player out of the locker room and just say, screw it, we lose, we lose, but you can't do that. it's just unfathomable to me that the thought even crossed into their minds they could do that and get away with it.  That's the "C" word.  Culture.  If your team has the culture where this type of behavior is acceptable, it will continue to occur. 

 

-  I liked the story about the playoff game.  And again, he recounted a lot of specifics, and I found it extremely interesting and entertaining.  He was really specific in a lot of ways.  However.  Here's the thing.  The way he described it, it was almost as though he was a spectator to all of it, and not a leader of it.  He said that they had managed to get GB into a punting situation on the 3rd or 4th drive, and "one of our fat asses tried to substitute."  And he said they had told them all week not to do that.  Aaron caught them for a 5 yard penalty, then they went on to score.  He recounted so many missed opportunities in the game. And each one, I was thinking, "well, goo God man, you're the HC, this **** kept happening, it wasn't like it was the first time, and it certainly wasn't the last, what did you do about it."  Cooley did the math on this at one point in 2019, where Jay's teams from 2015 on had gotten to a 10 point lead X number of times (and it wasn't insignificant) but in all but 2 or 3 instances, the other team had at least come back to tie the game.  They could NOT maintain a lead.  Why?  It was always this bad-luck aw-shucks one-off stuff that just kept happening.  Which you just don't see with well prepared/coached teams.  If this was the only time it happened, then fine, bad luck.  But it wasn't.  It was a trend.  And God bless it, I remember that playoff game and thinking they should have at least been up 17-0. Instead they let GB hand around and Aaaron Rogdered them, and they lost.  

 

- Culture.  So, his excuse for a bad culture was basically he didn't control the roster.  And he's envious of Ron who has final roster say.  I get that.  But.  There are A LOT (the vast majority) of coaches in the league without final roster say who can still instill accountability. I think it's much more to it than that.   Allowing your wide receiver to give you a purple nerple just shows players didn't see him as an authority figure.  I said this before, if DJax tried that with Rivera.  Rivera would have decked him. 1985 Bears LB form tackle.   But DJax wouldn't do it.  Not because of Rivera's roster power, just because there's nothing in Rivera's demeanor that says that is an appropriate thing to do.  And forget Rivera.  Do you think there is a player on the Raiders who would DARE do that to Jon?  Or a player on the Steelers who would do it to Tomlin (who does have a GM he works with?) Lots of teams have GMs with roster control, and the coach still is an authority figure.  So this excuse rang hollow to me.  

 

Things I don't blame Jay for at all:

- I think he did everything he could to convince Dan not to take Haskins, he was overruled, it worked out badly, that's not on Jay.  Jay also said he would have been happy to go into the season with Dwayne as the starter to groom him, but he just wasn't ready.  And Dwayne wasn't doing what he needed to in order to be ready. I believe all of this.  

- I think he did the best he could with the QB circus in 2014.  He said (whether he really believes it or not) they really needed to get Griffin reps to see if he was the future.  I don't know why he would "take one for the team" at this point, so I take him at his word.  This them flowed to a conversation of other QBs, and whether or not he'd be comfortable with Colt and Keenum, to which he said basically yes.  

- He was stuck with Alex, didn't know they were even in conversations to get Alex. He said he thought Reid did a really good job to get something when they might have released Alex for the cap savings anyway since Mahomes was going to be the starter.  He was asked if he would have been comfortable with Colt, and he said maybe, but would have to have brought in competition, if they hadn't gone out to get Alex.  The fact Dan/Bruce (probably more Bruce) didn't even consult Jay on the QB of the team is absolute madness.  I don't care how incompetent I thought Jay was as a HC, he was still the goddamn HC, and you don't make a QB move without consulting the HC. 

- He made a point in a way that resonated with me for the first time.  Their weapons in 2016 were Reed, DJax, Pierre and CT, predominantly, who were responsible for something close to 4500 yards.  By the time the New Orlean's game in 2017 was over, all of them were gone because they either let them go or they were injured.  What I blame the team for is not having a plan (or at least a plan that had any chance of success) to replace DJax and Deshaun.  Doctson/Grant was never going to be the answer.  They thought (wrongly) Crowder could slide outside, but that was also short-sighted.  So some of it was short sighted on the personnel side.  But the point is still valid that they lost basically 4500 yards of production without replacing it.  And that's too much to overcome.  

- If you believe him, he put a lot of the Kirk drama on Scot McLoughan who thought he could get Kirk cheap because he evaluated Kirk as above average.  Maybe GMSM got that one wrong.  Then Dan/Bruce got involved and it was just stupid.  I think Jay had a better idea of what Kirk's value was than any of the other nuckleheads.  I did like the line that Dan said, "have you ever known me to lose a player over money?" to which Jay thought there were some non-monetary issues which were not going to get worked out.  

- He took responsibility for throwing Griffin under the bus to the media.  I think he learned from that.  At the same time, he was trying to make a point that you don't deflect blame to your teammates, control what you can control.  Griffin still hasn't learned that, probably never will, is out of the league and probably won't get another shot.  And will probably always wonder why, and blame others.  In a lot of ways, he and Snyder are the same person, so it's no wonder they got along so well.

 

There were some other nitnack things here and there.  I've always liked listening to Jay, I think he's got a good sense of humor, quick whit, and I've never questioned his football knowledge.  I always thought he was a bad coach because he lacked the leadership qualities to be a coach, to hold people accountable, and to build a good coaching staff.  While I picked on his in-game lack-of-adjustments, and his propensity to run on 1st down for -2 yards in just about every sequence, those were less of my overall issue with Jay.  Though they were the most obvious in game-day situations.  

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Riggo-toni

Riggo-toni

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Posted

Chris Polian is Brucifer part deux - the son of a great GM who took over for daddy in Indy and was AWFUL. At least Kyle Smith inherited his father's gift for evaluating college talent. Chris only got the job in Indy because of his father's pull, and he got them both fired. Nobody but us would hire this guy.

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JSSkinz

JSSkinz

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The Sheehan interview was great, definitely picked up some new nuggets.

 

Jay confirmed what I argued all along back in the old Kirk thread that Kirk didn't want to be here.  Jay mentions Kirk had some "bad blood" with not just the FO but also teammates and he specially pointed out Desean and Pierre but he also mentioned himself in that.  I know the Mike Jones tweet in 2017 about Kirk still being open to playing here got thrown around alot but it obviously wasn't true.

 

Its interesting that no matter where Kirk plays his teammates don't seem to love him, we've seen the same thing happen with Diggs and Theilen in Minnesota.

 

Jay also confirmed that GMSM believed Kirk was worth above average money and not the contract he ended up getting, Scott told us he "didn't see special" in Kirk so I guess that wasn't really groundbreaking news.

 

In the end I think it's pretty clear GMSM made the right choice on Kirk but the FO blocking a trade is supremely idiotic and definately set us back.  I didn't hear Jay specify when he thought we could fetch a good pick for Kirk but I think he was talking about prior to the 2017 season, I can't imagine Kirk having much value after the 2015 season.

 

The stories of little digs Dan took at Jay about Haskins are sad, they show how clueless and immature Dan is, trying to one up a guy he hired as a head coach.

 

I thought it was interesting Jay said his best attribute was talent evaluation, he didn't mention coaching at all, maybe he will segway into a FO at some point.

 

I always liked Jay, what a mess his tenure was but I don't blame him, he was stuck in an impossible situation.

 

 

 

 

 

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Burgundy Yoda

Burgundy Yoda

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Posted

I'm a little concerned our drafts are going to start taking a hit. I just get the feeling that all these new FO hires are moving into an already well established young roster but won't continue to add onto it. Like the 2021 rookie class I will immediately start looking at after the season. We've had a good amount of rookies flow in and be productive the last 3-4 years, if that stops next season it will be noticeable. 

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