2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I get the injury red flags, but I'm a little puzzled at how ppl are calling Jimmy G "completely mediocre" when last season he had a top 5 completion % and was #6 in TDs despite being #19 in attempts and a top 10 QBR. Yes he had an interception problem, very true. But he was also top 10 in passing 1st downs. #3 in yards gained per pass attempt. That all doesn't scream "completely mediocre" to me.

 

I guess it's a combination of watching him play and his numbers prior to last season. To me he just doesn't really look like a very good QB. Serviceable maybe, but not all that much more. 

 

And it's not like he was lighting the world on fire this year until his injury either. 7 TDs and 5 INTs in 6 games.

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I guess it's a combination of watching him play and his numbers prior to last season. To me he just doesn't really look like a very good QB. Serviceable maybe, but not all that much more. 

 

And it's not like he was lighting the world on fire this year until his injury either. 7 TDs and 5 INTs in 6 games.

 

The biggest red flag to me is the Interceptions. The takeaway/turnover battle is one of the most impactful parts of the game IMO. A QB with a penchant to turn the ball over will just kill you.

[ultravin]

if allen is fully mobile, then yes, he should be the starter.  but with that fracture against the giants, i don't know.  i'm hoping he doesn't look like alex during the philly game when he plays.  as far as the draft, only way we get a qb in the 1st is to trade up and give them the extra 3rd.  if not, then BPA, and if etienne is available, you get him.

 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, HoggLife said:

Ya I have seen it safe to think he will go top 6 for sure before the Heisman.

 

The Heisman won't change his draft stock.  It didn't for Mark Ingram, Lamar Jackson, or Derek Henry.  NFL teams evaluate NFL potential independent of the college awards.

 

Smith is going to need to either run fast or gain weight or both to go top ten.  NFL teams are going to be skeptical of taking a 175 pound receiver who runs a 4.5 that high.

 

Chase is rumored to run 4.4 and below and Pitts could run in the 4.4s too.  Those are the guys I expect to go in the top ten.

[Koolblue13]

A guy Pitts size running a 4.4 is just not natural. That's unreal. I'd sell the farm for him.

[IrepDC]

BPA at 19-25, depending on if one of the WRs falls, will be LB Zaven Collins. The athletic, sideline to sideline, downhill, playmaking LB our defense has been looking for. He's a 3 year starter at Tulsa, freshman All American, and 2020 College Defensive Player of the Year winner. He has a reputation to be a student of the game who works hard. At 6'4 260, if he runs good at the combine, he may shoot up boards. He is the second best linebacker in this draft after Parsons. 

 

 

[Going Commando]

5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

A guy Pitts size running a 4.4 is just not natural. That's unreal. I'd sell the farm for him.

 

I think he'll run 4.5s at the end of the day.  But Waller ran a 4.46 and they are frequently compared to each other, so I don't think it is out of the question.

 

I also think Devonta Smith is going to find a way to run in the 4.4s, similar to how Justin Jefferson and Jerry Jeudy did.  There is a lot of money at stake for him in that one drill time.  Hundredths of a second could be the difference between going top ten to the Eagles and falling ten to twenty slots in the draft.

[Going Commando]

I've consistently been able to choose between Kenneth Gainwell and Chuba Hubbard with our 4th rounder in TDN mocks.  To me, that is a reasonable argument against picking Etienne or Harris at 19, depending on who else is available at that draft slot.  Zaven Collins + Gainwell > Harris + most of the other options I've seen in the fourth round.

 

But if Collins goes to the Patriots or Dolphins and the choice is between Najee and some tier three OTs like Eichenberg and Cosmi and Radunz and Leatherwood, then I say go ahead and pick Najee.  We can still get a good WR in the fourth who is a comparable talent to Gainwell.

[Thinking Skins]

I really just hope we don't get a player who doesn't love football. I don't know how to measure that but I hate the stories of Doctson and Haskins in reference to this. I tried to defend Haskins because I really didn't see what the media was seeing, but if his attitude is what Ron was referencing in his press conference yesterday then not much else I can say. So who else loves football? Its not something we're likely to see on scouting reports. I think a guy like Chase Young will show up on videos, but did McLaurin? I know he did things like blocking well but didn't Doctson block well? I don't know. 

[Koolblue13]

8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I've consistently been able to choose between Kenneth Gainwell and Chuba Hubbard with our 4th rounder in TDN mocks.  To me, that is a reasonable argument against picking Etienne or Harris at 19, depending on who else is available at that draft slot.  Zaven Collins + Gainwell > Harris + most of the other options I've seen in the fourth round.

 

But if Collins goes to the Patriots or Dolphins and the choice is between Najee and some tier three OTs like Eichenberg and Cosmi and Radunz and Leatherwood, then I say go ahead and pick Najee.  We can still get a good WR in the fourth who is a comparable talent to Gainwell.

You've been such a big Cosmi guy, it's impressive to see you pick Harris over him, after highlighting the RB talent later on.

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

I really just hope we don't get a player who doesn't love football. 

Those days are definitely over.

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You've been such a big Cosmi guy, it's impressive to see you pick Harris over him, after highlighting the RB talent later on.

 

I still like Cosmi, but BPA has to win out at that point.  Najee and Etienne are like top ten-ish players and potential superstars whereas Cosmi is "merely" good.  I'd compare it to the difference between drafting Dalvin Cook or LeVeon Bell vs Taylor Decker.  Sure, you'd be happy with Decker at 19, but your team is better with Bell or Cook.

 

As much as I like Cosmi and the mid round RBs, you have to trust in BPA first and foremost instead of trying to game out the draft like that.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I really just hope we don't get a player who doesn't love football. I don't know how to measure that but I hate the stories of Doctson and Haskins in reference to this. I tried to defend Haskins because I really didn't see what the media was seeing, but if his attitude is what Ron was referencing in his press conference yesterday then not much else I can say. So who else loves football? Its not something we're likely to see on scouting reports. I think a guy like Chase Young will show up on videos, but did McLaurin? I know he did things like blocking well but didn't Doctson block well? I don't know. 

 

That's on the team with interviews both of the player and people around them.  There were red flags about Haskins' work ethic before he was drafted.  I put some of those articles on the Haskins thread.  I somewhat ignored it in real time because I was more concerned with his play which I wasn't enamored with.    I would bet that part of the reason why Kyle Smith said "you "expletive" up" to Dan (according to a report), and a coach said he's nauseous about the pick when they took Haskins was because of the intangibles issues. 

 

As for Doctson, I don't recall.  He was a really quiet shy dude.  But again I guess so was Art Monk.  Cooley said he heard Doctson didn't love football and was homesick his rookie season.  Some (including me) came down on Cooley for it but he ended up right.

 

As for McLaurin, he was among my favorite players before that draft, and his intangibles including his work ethic were touted a lot in the predraft process.   Chase Young's intangibles were touted to death -- workaholic, leader in the locker room at Ohio State. 

 

Among the current players in this draft, I haven't really dived in yet that much into personalites.  But again we can only get a fraction of what the teams can gather on that front.  IMO work ethic and love of the game go hand in hand.  The ones who stand out for me so far purely on that subject (I am sure there are a heck of a lot more than just these guys but I just happened to notice it about them thus far):  Kyle Pitts, Zaven Collins, Trey Lance, Mac Jones, Devonta Smith, Travis Etienne.

[DWinzit]

5 hours ago, IrepDC said:

BPA at 19-25, depending on if one of the WRs falls, will be LB Zaven Collins. The athletic, sideline to sideline, downhill, playmaking LB our defense has been looking for. He's a 3 year starter at Tulsa, freshman All American, and 2020 College Defensive Player of the Year winner. He has a reputation to be a student of the game who works hard. At 6'4 260, if he runs good at the combine, he may shoot up boards. He is the second best linebacker in this draft after Parsons. 

 

Collins intrigues me more than almost any other player with his versatility, speed, size, smarts and instincts. That's all the traits you want!

@stevemcqueen1 mentions him possibly gong to NE or Miami, he would be an animal in their schemes but wouldn't mind seeing him bounced around the front 7 in DC

[Koolblue13]

21 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Collins intrigues me more than almost any other player with his versatility, speed, size, smarts and instincts. That's all the traits you want!

@stevemcqueen1 mentions him possibly gong to NE or Miami, he would be an animal in their schemes but wouldn't mind seeing him bounced around the front 7 in DC

Collins won't make it to our pick, but he's definitely the star of our spot. Hands down. Even if we spend big on a MLB, Collins is probably the BPA at 19. He just won't be there, since he's the obvious LB2 in the draft.

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Collins intrigues me more than almost any other player with his versatility, speed, size, smarts and instincts. That's all the traits you want!

@stevemcqueen1 mentions him possibly gong to NE or Miami, he would be an animal in their schemes but wouldn't mind seeing him bounced around the front 7 in DC

 

He's my favorite of the defensive players that might be available at 19.  He's a perfect fit for us and would probably be a day one starter at MLB.  I think he's a more polished version of Tremaine Edmunds.  A king sized linebacker like that roaming around behind our DL could be an All Pro.  You're right that he has all of the traits you want from the position, which means we have to hope for luck to get him at 19.

 

I haven't done enough watching of the LBer class in general, but the other name I see projected around 19-20s is Owusu-Koromoah and I have watched him.  He's an interesting fit here.  Local kid from Hampton VA.  Seems to be smart and is extremely athletic and explosive.  Vicious physicality.  Played a "rover" type position for Notre Dame, and I like his potential as a similar free range playmaker in our scheme, but I have some qualms.  I think he duplicates Khaleke Hudson, who I already like.  And his size is a bit disappointing if you're picking him in the first round.  I know the NFL is trending towards positionless back seven defenders and Jamal Adams looms larger than just about anybody on a football field.  But the game is just so much easier for big players.  There is not going to be any match up that can bully Zaven Collins.  But there will be times where Owusu-Koromoah is just going to get run over or boxed out or wiped out by a good block no matter how hard he plays just because of the big size disadvantage.  This is why I've tended to be down on undersized LBers in the first round over the years.

 

But that doesn't mean I would rule Owusu-Koromoah out at 19.  Or even better would be to trade down a few slots and pick him in the 20s.  There are a lot of things to consider with a guy like him and a lot of positives to him.  The LBer depth could fall off of a cliff before we pick on day 2, lifting up the draft stock of the good but flawed ones like Owusu-Koromoah and Bolton.  And at the end of the day, Bobby Wagners and Lavonte Davids and London Fletchers do exist so you can't rule out a small linebacker from being way better than expected.

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I've consistently been able to choose between Kenneth Gainwell and Chuba Hubbard with our 4th rounder in TDN mocks.  To me, that is a reasonable argument against picking Etienne or Harris at 19, depending on who else is available at that draft slot.  Zaven Collins + Gainwell > Harris + most of the other options I've seen in the fourth round.

 

But if Collins goes to the Patriots or Dolphins and the choice is between Najee and some tier three OTs like Eichenberg and Cosmi and Radunz and Leatherwood, then I say go ahead and pick Najee.  We can still get a good WR in the fourth who is a comparable talent to Gainwell.

Running backs are my next re-watch. I can tell you that I’m not as high on Etienne as you are, but it also depends on the role you’re looking for. In the grand scheme I agree on Etienne’s potential. It’s sky high. But he’s not a guy you can give the ball to 25 times. He’s similar to a Gibson type that you want fresh. I will affirm this or not on my watch, which I’m in the process of.

28 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Collins intrigues me more than almost any other player with his versatility, speed, size, smarts and instincts. That's all the traits you want!

@stevemcqueen1 mentions him possibly gong to NE or Miami, he would be an animal in their schemes but wouldn't mind seeing him bounced around the front 7 in DC

I think Collins is very good. He’s a big body player. He isn’t as smooth as Parsons and to be honest I think Jabril Cox is close as a prospect. Collins is a freak though. Personally I have Cox/Collins as 2a and 2b right now. But in the next month I think Collins combine numbers are going to shoot him through the roof.

Edited January 6, 2021 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't know how easy it will be for Zaven Collins to quickly jump to middle linebacker especially if they are looking for a leader on the field-directing the defense type like a Fletcher.  From what I've watched he played outside linebacker in college -- mostly weakside, some strong side.   I'd guess they sign a veteran MLB and use Collins on the outside at least at the start.  He has the build to be a natural strong side.  Maybe move Cole to the weakside?

[PlayAction]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

A guy Pitts size running a 4.4 is just not natural. That's unreal. I'd sell the farm for him.

Vinny? 😆  If he's available when the team picks that's fine.  But please let's stop mortgaging the farm.  Been there done that!  We've finally paid the loan off so let's enjoy some franchise security for awhile.

[KDawg]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't know how easy it will be for Zaven Collins to quickly jump to middle linebacker especially if they are looking for a leader on the field-directing the defense type like a Fletcher.  From what I've watched he played outside linebacker in college -- mostly weakside, some strong side.   I'd guess they sign a veteran MLB and use Collins on the outside at least at the start.  He has the build to be a natural strong side.  Maybe move Cole to the weakside?

He’s a rusher. That’s his strength. I’m not in love with the idea of him as a pure inside backer. But he is a sideline to sideline dude that can fly around and make tackles on the edge. He can also rush. Stunt pressures with him and the DL would be dangerous. I don’t have him pegged as the QB of the D. But David (if we get him) could be. And Holcomb could even do that part. 
 

We play a lot of 2 backer sets. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see Collins as the third “backer” next season floating just outside the box. 
 

David and Collins with Holcomb and Hudson developing is nothing to sneeze at. Can get creative and we would have tremendous depth even for non-traditional positions like the flexed backer in nickel sets. 

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Running backs are my next re-watch. I can tell you that I’m not as high on Etienne as you are, but it also depends on the role you’re looking for. In the grand scheme I agree on Etienne’s potential. It’s sky high. But he’s not a guy you can give the ball to 25 times. He’s similar to a Gibson type that you want fresh. I will affirm this or not on my watch, which I’m in the process of.

 

Oh I think Etienne is a feature back.  He is an absolute touchdown machine and can do every kind of running plus be a pretty good weapon in the pass game.  When I watch him I see a Dalvin Cook-esque runner with a few subtle but meaningful differences.  Cook is a little more upright and his style is a little more elusive and seems to have better change of direction skills, whereas Etienne is more aggressive and power-based and has better foot-in-the-ground-and-go acceleration.  In that last regard, he's about as good as it gets.  But I see the same spectacular slashing general style and talent.  I see some Melvin Gordon too but Etienne runs with a lot more purpose and ferocity, whereas Gordon sometimes likes to get a little too cute and he can be a bit of an ambler.  Etienne does not have that problem.  He is an embodiment of the aggressive Clemson mentality.

 

The only big reservation I have with Etienne at this point is his pass protection.  It's not an effort issue there, he just doesn't appear to have any feel for where blitzes are coming from.  His career was illustrious and he has been one of the best players in the country the last two seasons, but was overshadowed by his quarterback's greatness.  But I also think the ability to sit in so many second halves has kept him fairly fresh despite playing a full four year career.

 

If we drafted him, I think he would fit into a rotation with Gibson pretty seamlessly.  He would be especially good on early downs and Gibson has the ability to play with almost anyone because of his own versatility.

[mhd24]

I don't think Collins lasts till 19.  However, maybe he does.  Edmunds slid till 16 (Bills traded up for him).  Looking at the 1-18, I could see Carolina, Denver, Dallas (Jalen Smith could get cut, LVE is too injury prone), Minny, NE, Raiders, and Miami all taking him.  He's arguably the best defender in the draft after Parsons.  

[RichmondRedskin88]

I don’t know if there’s any player I’d sell the farm for this year to be honest since someone mentioned it. 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Those days are definitely over.

I hope so, but also I wonder about stuff like the Winston crab legs stuff and (now years later) the Guice and the sexual misconduct, and even stuff like (I think it was) Cam and dyslexia and Josh Freeman having some undisclosed illness that impacted his play and a reported drug usage that was approved by the league but still got him suspended. There are so many things that seem to be related to the character of the player or the things that are outside of simply the abilities of the player. I just hope we are able to see these things are accurately judging them. 

[Going Commando]

Rewatching cut ups from the Clemson and Notre Dame games and those Etienne vs Owusu-Koromoah match ups were fun.  Two hyper aggressive studs just battling.  O-K definitely got the better of him in the first match up, but Etienne got his revenge in the ACC championship.

 

O-K plays bigger than his size.  He is heavy-handed with WR and TE blocks and has such explosive twitchiness that it's not hard for him to disengage and go seek out the ball.  That final step to get to the ball beats a lot of guys who think they got him blocked and it's pretty great.  And he's also got the toughness and physicality to be very effective as a blitzer.  He ran over Clemson's center and sucked up Etienne and the RG too on a double A gap blitz and the other ILB got a free run to the QB that forced #5 (not going to even attempt to spell his name) to throw it out of the back of the end zone.

 

Etienne got him a couple of times when he tried to hit rather than tackle, and that's annoying to see.  But when you combine the physicality and spectacular speed and aggression with his ability to man cover slot players of many different types, he looks like a modern star NFL LBer.  My first impression of O-K was that I really liked him, especially earlier in the process when he was getting mocked around our draft pick.  Then I kind of cooled on him as I watched Zaven Collins and was blown away by him.  It's not a flattering juxtaposition for O-K because it makes him look physically deficient and really drives home the reality that the game is just easier for guys who are as gifted as Collins.  But if Collins is off the board, then O-K is pretty appealing.

 

Back to Etienne, two areas where he falls short of Dalvin Cook:

1 - Patience with downfield blocks and ability to make the surprising cut off of that block that just flummoxes NFL pursuit defenders.  This is the point in his run where he hits so many of his homeruns.  Etienne isn't as instinctive and he sometimes chooses wrong and gets tackled by guys who he has no business losing to.  I'm thinking specifically of getting tackled by the holder on that field goal return where he tried to hurdle the guy when he should have just throttled down for a second and let the guy run himself out of the play and it would have been a TD.

 

2 - The consistent ability to handle the first man in the hole and make him miss, failures of the OL into positive gains.  I honestly don't think I've ever seen a back who is better at consistently managing the failures of his offensive line and feeling out where that immediate penetration is coming from and side-stepping it/adjusting his initial path.  He's like a kung-fu master at this, it's uncanny.

 

But what Etienne does have over Cook is better pad level and strength and he's got a more flexible lower half.  Etienne's contact balance is elite and his hips and ankles are so fluid that he draws a lot of comparisons to Kamara.

[arftech]

What will it take in draft capital for the WFT to move up in the draft at a spot between 5 and 10 to go out and get their QB?  Anybody have any scenarios for that?

Edited January 6, 2021 by arftech