Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

[MisterPinstripe]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I didn't know he was going it alone next week.

Defense is good enough to keep the 49ers from scoring gobs of points, so yeah, the ball is in Kirk's hands on the offense. We all have personal experience with him coming up very small in the playoffs or in the game to get us into the playoffs. It will take a lot more than one game to convince me that has changed.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, Llevron said:

There is always fluff whenever we make a new trade or pick up a new player. Its the Redskins they always do that. We all know it. But no one who knew anything was watching the 2018 season and thinking "Damn that Alex Smith is such a good QB". No one, not one ****ing person could have known anything about football and watched that **** and really thought that he was that dude. But its COMPLETELY REASONABLY to think that Alex's consistency in protecting the football helped. That was the real argument. 

 

I know it's been a while but there were absolutely folks here that were all-in on Alex Smith, making up all sorts of reasons why he was better.  Protecting the football = being ultra conservative and riding the running game and defense.  That can work, particularly against bad teams.  See Kirk Cousins playing the Redskins this past November.  Which is why it was COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE to act as if Kirk was incapable of running the offense as Alex did last year.  The only real caveat there is Jay probably would have wanted to toss it around the yard more with Cousins at QB vs. Alex.

 

EDIT:  Just looked and in Alex's time with the Skins, he had 10 TD's - 5 picks and was sacked 22 times - in 9.5 games.  I'm sure we all remember just how disastrous he was in the game where broke his leg, right?

 

And for the record, I hate doing this exercise.  I have no personal beef with Alex Smith and never have.  For all intents and purposes, he seems like a really good dude and is certainly someone you can win with as well.  But capping off the Kirk Cousins era with letting him walk for nothing, only to give up assets to acquire Alex Smith and extend him for only 12M less guaranteed than a younger QB with potentially untapped talent in Kirk Cousins is a colossal failure no matter how you chop that up.  Anyone saying otherwise is merely being disingenuous and being emotional vs. rational.

 

21 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Also Kirk has a running game and still is up and down in Minny and still forces balls. The only people who thought having a run game would change him as a player were the people who are defending him right now. And that is wrong. He is the same player he always was, just more polished (which in fairness is proof to how hard he does work at his craft)

2018: 30 TD's / 10 picks

2019: 26 TD's / 6 picks

 

What QB's aren't up and down?  How many QB's are awesome every week? Also, that doesn't look like a guy who is forcing that many throws.  It also aligns with the fact that the running game is much better this year vs. last, in that he threw for 4 less TD's and 4 less picks.

 

I don't think having a running game changed him as a player.  I think having a running game and a defense is pivotal for every QB, no matter their skill level, pay scale, etc.

 

[MisterPinstripe]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Yes.  And it wasn't directed at you, but the majority of fans who during 2018 insisted that we upgraded at quarterback would point to Smith not turning the ball over...despite him never actually moving the ball and scoring points.  

And we had a 6-3 record until he got hurt. I never said when we got him that he would out throw Kirk, I always said his not turning the ball over and putting our defense in a bad position would put us in better positions. And it worked out exactly that way, proved my point. I think Kirk is a good QB who can put up numbers but chokes in the big games, the stats back that assertion up as well.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

Yes specifically regarding the deal he offered them after 2015 (I think) ... 3 years at what, $17-$20M per. That's an absolute steal in this environment. Egregious not to take it immediately.

 

It's not a steal if you "buy" the wrong player.

 

Kirk had only started one season. There was every bit the chance that it could have been the best season of his entire career--believe it or not, there were details about his play that could cause concern at the time, and wanting more certainty by having him play another year made complete sense (and damn near everyone said so at the time). So if you tie too big a contract to him and he starts faltering afterward, the Skins could end up with a Brock Osweiler situation where they're trying to dump a QB they overpaid and are sending draft picks AND Cousins to another team just to get them to take his salary off their hands.

 

It's not about saving money, it's about being right...

[Hazel-Ra]

He's gone... the guy who ran him off is gone... the Coach who benched Griffin for him is gone... Griffin is gone.

If Kirk stumbles into a ring... good for him. With all the involved parties gone (Sans Dan) it ancient history.

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I know it's been a while but there were absolutely folks here that were all-in on Alex Smith, making up all sorts of reasons why he was better.  Protecting the football = being ultra conservative and riding the running game and defense. 

 

Im not saying that people weren't all in on Alex and im not saying people weren't saying protecting the ball would work. I was saying both of those things myself.

 

Im saying that no one watching the games that knew anything about football looked at Alex Smith and said damn hes so much better than Cousins. And no one has proven otherwise yet. I'm being pretty straight forward about this. 

 

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

2018: 30 TD's / 10 picks

2019: 26 TD's / 6 picks

 

What QB's aren't up and down?  How many QB's are awesome every week? Also, that doesn't look like a guy who is forcing that many throws.  It also aligns with the fact that the running game is much better this year vs. last, in that he threw for 4 less TD's and 4 less picks.

 

Im not sure what your point is here to be honest. I feel like you are trying to get me to defend.....something? I dunno. I didnt say he was the only up and down QB in the game. I said he was up and down. And I didnt say he threw more picks, I said he still forced some throws. They dont necessarily equate to the same thing. I get the impression you are just arguing me to argue me, when as usual we are closer to agreeing than disagreeing. 

 

My point was that there are problems in his game that were evident here, that are still evident in Minny even with a better team around him. Thats all im trying to get across. Sorry if I said it funny. You know I do that 

 

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don't think having a running game changed him as a player.  I think having a running game and a defense is pivotal for every QB, no matter their skill level, pay scale, etc.

 

Again we agree here. 

[redskinss]

Do I think kirk is an excellent quarterback capable of having success in this league?

Yes.

Do i regret not signing him?

No.

Minnesota is a far better run organization than we are, any successes kirk has had would have been reduced with us and his failures most likely would have been amplified. 

In my opinion had we re-signed kirk and had moderate success we'd have a little better record but we'd still be in denial on so many other things that I'm glad we let him go so we could hit rock bottom. 

[Sticksboi05]

50 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

It's not a steal if you "buy" the wrong player.

 

Kirk had only started one season. There was every bit the chance that it could have been the best season of his entire career--believe it or not, there were details about his play that could cause concern at the time, and wanting more certainty by having him play another year made complete sense (and damn near everyone said so at the time). So if you tie too big a contract to him and he starts faltering afterward, the Skins could end up with a Brock Osweiler situation where they're trying to dump a QB they overpaid and are sending draft picks AND Cousins to another team just to get them to take his salary off their hands.

 

It's not about saving money, it's about being right...

 

In today's NFL, every team is gambling on QBs except like 4-5. Even Dak is going to be a gamble for the Cowboys for how much it'll cost to keep him. 3 years, $17M per is as ideal a gamble as they were going to get for a guy coming off a great season (albeit with questions on competition etc.)

 

The season before Houston signed Osweiler, he had 10 TD to 6 INT and a passer rating of 86, which in today's league is garbage. Cousins was 29-11 with a 102 passer rating and led the league in completion percentage. Not that great of a comparison. If Cousins had the season Brock had, I don't care if he offered anything, I'm letting him walk.You're right there were concerns but that's the game today with how valued the QB position is. Cam Newton is a former MVP and if Carolina re-signs him, it is going to be a gamble.

 

I'm certainly not losing sleep over Cousins in 2020, that entire regime is the past now but truthfully the biggest regret is not trading him for assets when they knew they weren't sold on him long-term.

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

In your scenario, there's also the issue of giving Cousins a fully-guaranteed contract for 3 years after the 2015 season, and that contract ending last offseason. Do we do another fully-guaranteed 3 year contract for a QB who may have only guiding the team to 7-9 and 8-8 records?... Last season damn near the entire Vikings fan base and the majority of the sports media deemed it a mistake for the Vikings to sign him to that contract...and if this wildcard win is the pinnacle of Kirk's success with the Vikings, they will continue to say it. Would we have ended up giving Kirk that same contract last year?

 

From the post you quoted:

 

 In hindsight, with Ron Rivera, having Cousins around now would have been beneficial. But there's nothing saying he'd even be around at this point. Or that the dominoes fall the same way with Kirk here.

 

I agree with you here.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

11 hours ago, Califan007 said:

I'm reading Cowboys fans posts from the end of the 2009 season...I swear, if I didn't know any better I'd say some of you are really Cowboys fans under an alias lol...

 

Says the guy that apparently spends a lot of time reading Cowboy posts from a decade ago...

 

34 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

I'm certainly not losing sleep over Cousins in 2020, that entire regime is the past now but truthfully the biggest regret is not trading him for assets when they knew they weren't sold on him long-term.

 

This is true. 

 

Cousins came up during the RG3 Shanahan disaster. He had a front row seat to the dysfunction of this franchise. Either he or his agent were far too smart to sign here, likely both. There is a chance we could have signed him before he was proven prior to the 2015 season when it seemed clear he was going to be the guy at least in the interim. Yet Bruce went cheap and passed on surrendering any leverage and we lost any chance we may have. 

 

At that point it was too late and the front office followed with a series of mistakes and ego-driven embarrassments in how this whole thing was handled. 

 

If Cousins wasn't going to sign, and the FO likely knew this was the overwhelming possibility, he should have been traded for assets. 

[wit33]

 

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can say with certainty that DJHJR86 is correct in that there was a ton of fluff around the Alex Smith acquisition, with a lot of crap being spewed.  We had some folks stretching mightily to find reasons why Alex was that dude.  One of my favorites, is that Kirk wasn't capable of riding a running game and making the checkdowns, that he was prone to force it and turn the ball over, and is why we couldn't win with Kirk and that Alex Smith's style was exactly what the doctor ordered.  Which is why I smirk when I see Kirk play Alex Smith like games now that he has a running game that he never had here.  Like uhh yeah, there's a reason why Kirk forced a lot of junk here - because the passing game was all we had going for us.  It's not that he's just hell bent on throwing it all over the field.

 

Smith has/had a higher game to game “floor”, but Lower ceiling than Kirk. Its subjective as to what an individual values more.
 

Smith in some ways is an enigma, due to his subpar individual stats, but clear contributions to team stats (TO differential, rushing yards, Time of possession, and field position) these variables have traveled with him for 8 consecutive winning seasons on three different teams. 

 

 

 

 

[MisterPinstripe]

I’m glad we didn’t sign him for what he got, but definitely agree it was a big mistake to not trade him for something while we had his rights.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Happy for Kirk.  Always had a feeling he'd break through.  I'm not saying he's elite, but I always felt he was too good to NOT step up.  

 

29 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Smith has/had a higher game to game “floor”, but Lower ceiling than Kirk. Its subjective as to what an individual values more.
 

Smith in some ways is an enigma, due to his subpar individual stats, but clear contributions to team stats (TO differential, rushing yards, Time of possession, and field position) these variables have traveled with him for 8 consecutive winning seasons on three different teams. 

 

 

 

 

 

I always thought that there's some kind of unfound advanced metric that would explain how Smith won games.  You're probably correct though.

[SkinFanInMinn]

3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Last season damn near the entire Vikings fan base and the majority of the sports media deemed it a mistake for the Vikings to sign him to that contract...and if this wildcard win is the pinnacle of Kirk's success with the Vikings, they will continue to say it.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  I live up hear and daily talk to people and listen to sports radio.  The fan base up here was pretty much split like the Skins community was.  Many did question Kirk, but just as many supported him.  In fact I remember at least once last year on sports radio where the dj/announcer/whatever was calling the Kirk Cousins signing a success.  I don't doubt he later questioned his judgement on that but you're making stuff up about the level of support for Cousins up here.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I always thought that there's some kind of unfound advanced metric that would explain how Smith won games.  You're probably correct though.

 

He summed it up perfectly in my opinion.

 

Totally abstract example using numbers just to show what what he's talking about (in my opinion)

 

(Using a scale of 1-10)

 

Alex Smith:

Floor: 5

Ceiling: 7

 

Kirk Cousins:

Floor: 1

Ceiling: 10

 

With this team, Smith fit better because even if he achieved his floor every game, the team had a chance to win. However, for 1-2 games/year, Cousins was capable of totally taking over. And 1-2 games/year Cousins was capable of totally screwing the pooch. And he had a lot more game to game variation.

 

Smith gives you consistency. Cousins gives you the possibility of greatness (or not so greatness). 

 

On a team with a good running game and some good receivers, Cousins is a better option... If they were on the Vikings I'd rate them different...

 

Vikings:

 

Alex Smith:

Floor: 5

Ceiling: 8

 

Kirk Cousins:

Floor: 4

Ceiling: 10

 

In that situation, Cousins is probably the better choice.

 

Again, its totally arbitrary and I didn't put thought into those numbers. I just thought it illustrated my point better.

[88Comrade2000]

Kirk was never going to succeed here.    Kirk needs the right team to have any type of success.

 

Wish him well. He surprised me.

 

It’s time focus on the Redskins. 
 

Rivera’s success depends on who becomes his long term starter.

Let’s see who that will be.

[Llevron]

Its very possible considering what has happened this off season that letting Kirk go was the best case scenario for both parties. He is free to excel or fail without the albatross of the Redskins holding him back (make no mistake, we would have or did regardless of his talent level). And we were free to finally bottom out without having any 1 guy to blame other than the guy at the top. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3 hours ago, SkinsFanMania said:

His contract is so bad.  Alex Smith's cap hit next season is 21.4m, but his dead cap is 32.2m dollars.  If we cut him, he will cost us 11m.    

 

That being said I do remember them having a decent record when Alex Smith went down with an injury.  Many thought we were going to win the division before he went down, but now that he hasn't played football for 1 1/2 years, how good can he be.

 

Oddly, if I'm doing the math right, the best-case scenario for the Redskins is for Smith to be healthy enough to be a ridiculously-expensive backup to Haskins. Then, at least we are paying the QB position about $25M. Even though our starter will be making a small percentage of that, it's not a horrible amount of the cap if you're getting solid output. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Its very possible considering what has happened this off season that letting Kirk go was the best case scenario for both parties. He is free to excel or fail without the albatross of the Redskins holding him back (make no mistake, we would have or did regardless of his talent level). And we were free to finally bottom out without having any 1 guy to blame other than the guy at the top. 

There's no doubt in that.  As I've said on numerous occasions, had we signed Kirk long term - he would be the scapegoat for Bruce Allen's ineptitude.  Without a shadow of a doubt.

[KDawg]

9 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Oddly, if I'm doing the math right, the best-case scenario for the Redskins is for Smith to be healthy enough to be a ridiculously-expensive backup to Haskins. Then, at least we are paying the QB position about $25M. Even though our starter will be making a small percentage of that, it's not a horrible amount of the cap if you're getting solid output. 

Id say you’re discounting the possibility that Smith retires and joins the FO in some capacity. Granted, that would have to include Rivera’s blessing. But if they could find a way to get him to retire and pay him a more than modest FO salary do essentially be “The Snyder Whisperer”, that is by far the best case scenario.

[CjSuAvE22]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Yes.  And it wasn't directed at you, but the majority of fans who during 2018 insisted that we upgraded at quarterback would point to Smith not turning the ball over...despite him never actually moving the ball and scoring points.  

They are wrong Cousins is light years ahead of smith ok we were 6-3 with cousins 3 losses were all blowouts with the offense doing nothing 10 tds after 9 games was a joke Smith was a 94 million dollar waste of money picks and fuller....and thats the reality of that situation...thank god by firing Allen most of this is in the past...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

43 minutes ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  I live up hear and daily talk to people and listen to sports radio.  The fan base up here was pretty much split like the Skins community was.  Many did question Kirk, but just as many supported him.  In fact I remember at least once last year on sports radio where the dj/announcer/whatever was calling the Kirk Cousins signing a success.  I don't doubt he later questioned his judgement on that but you're making stuff up about the level of support for Cousins up here.

 

No, I'm not making anything up...I wrote what I wrote based on what I observed, just like you did. Neither of us did an actual poll of Vikings fans to reach our conclusions lol...but the sample of Vikings fans I was exposed to was on twitter and message boards, and may be different from the sample of Vikings fans you were exposed to on talk radio and in person.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Says the guy that apparently spends a lot of time reading Cowboy posts from a decade ago...

 

Figured that if I was gonna make the claim that some Redskins fans defending Kirk sound a lot like Cowboys fans defending Romo, the least I should do is go get evidence to back up my claim. The wild part is, you actually have to go back and read Cowboys fan posts to do so. Weird, I know.

 

If you prefer, next time I'll just talk out of my ass like too many people do on this subject...👍

[RemoveSnyder]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

essentially be “The Snyder Whisperer”

 

Changing of apprentice for the emperor. 

 

I swear when I saw that gif from dallas as Bruce walks straight past Dan and Alex, you slow it down, watch as Alex pauses and watches Bruce for a moment.

 

I think in those seconds and milliseconds he's processing some deep stuff. Wondering how the seemingly two best buddy cronies on planet earth somehow just broke up. He watched them closely for months, was included in their meetings and yet here was Bruce ... banished. But also realizing in that moment that he was being groomed all along to be Dan's sidekick. Now he is the "bruce" companion. And while looking at Bruce in that very moment as he walked bye, perhaps wondering if that too was his eventual future, to be dismissed whenever time comes that he's out of favor with Dan in some random city. Like 12 monkeys, the kid in his youth seeing his older time traveling self at the airport at the same moment in time.

 

Then quickly real time resumes, Dan looks back around behind him and taps his hip and clicks his mouth to call Alex to get back by his side. So Alex turns his attention and follows.

Chilling.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I always thought that there's some kind of unfound advanced metric that would explain how Smith won games.  You're probably correct though.

Ya, I’ve researched all the stats and posted previously, it’s pretty wild how constant the variables I listed are throughout his last 8 years or so. Uncanny, really. 
 

My guess is Smith is very aware of these statistics and the way he discusses the nuances of a game seems to support it as well. With that said, I can understand a fan not valuing the variables listed and not believing his floor/ceiling is unable to lead a team to a SB or an elite level. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So unless my math is way off, if we had changed extended Cousins after his first starting season (as we should have)....we would currently be debating whether to extend him again.

 

That's bonkers, right?