Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 30 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: Yes. And it wasn't directed at you, but the majority of fans who during 2018 insisted that we upgraded at quarterback would point to Smith not turning the ball over...despite him never actually moving the ball and scoring points. Its not a smart response because I dont think anyone worth their comments was actually saying we upgraded at QB. Only that we got more consistent play at the position and we were winning in part thanks to that. I dont even think that can be argued. Not turning over the ball helps you win football games. Its not a hard concept unless you make it so because you want to defend another bias. Ignoring the fact that Smith had less than an off season to learn the playbook and the (worse) players around him, at the time we didnt need Smith to throw for 300 a game and 3 TDs to win. We played ball control on offense and we won. Im sure a large part of that was due to Smiths limitations, not because he was better. And I dont think you can find me one person saying otherwise. But if you can prove me wrong that will shut me up. And not some no name with 6 posts saying stuff like that. Anyone with a demonstrated understanding of football saying Smith is a better QB than Cousins will do. Also its 2020. Time to update your arguments playa. We cant stay in 2018 forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, Llevron said: I dont know if im the first to admit it or not, but everything I enjoy about the Kirk Cousins argument is the people participating in it. From the people who think he was only held back by the Redskins and is a for sure top 5 QB and we really messed up letting him go to the people who think he is bottom 5 choker for hire and just out to get his. I find you people eternally amusing. Personally, I'm hoping to check out of the Kirk Cousins business. I only continue to participate as I get tagged into the debates (particularly after a bad game) and feel like I have to stick this thing thing out as to not look like I've taken my ball and gone home. Just the fact that he's still a regular topic here is so incredibly sad for us as a fan base. The Kirk Cousins debate has soooo many layers to it and we've been through them time and time and time again. Most of those layers, at least for me, have little to do with Kirk the player and more about the dynamic that led him to not want to extend his time in Washington. Now with Bruce out of the way, a new head coach, and Haskins appearing competent - I'm ready to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmandoug1 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Kirk had a good game not great good. The media is pushing the "he will be a great QB" crap because its a feel good story. The Vikings defense coupled with two huge mistakes by Brees (bonehead throw into double coverage) won the game. So no on keeping Kirk Cousins here...he wasn't staying anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said: He rejected low ball offers from Bruce Allen and Scot M. Nope. Nothing whatsoever to do with him considering the offers too low. Kirk had only two goals after the 2015 season: get a fully-guaranteed contract for 3 years, or become a free agent. The Skins were not gonna give him the league's first fully-guaranteed contract after starting for one year, and definitely not without any ability to keep him beyond 3 years. It could be argued that no team in the NFL would have said "yes" to those demands. Skins tried negotiating--as all teams across the league do--with a player who was never gonna negotiate with them. kirk being offended by Bruce's low ball offers is a talking point that's not rooted in any truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommandB11 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Im glad he is gone. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cakmoney61 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Rex Tomb said: Well said. Good for Cousins, but I don't see him getting beyond SF next weekend. From what I recall, I don't think the Saints blitzed him much - I don't think he'll have the same luxury against the 49ers. He has the support of a much better defense than he had in Washington. If Minnesota's defense shows up, Cousins has a chance to win again next week. I don't think the Vikings will beat the 49ers, but I didn't think they would beat the Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 2 hours ago, KDawg said: It's kind of a silly debate at this point. Both parties made the right move in the end when the contract got to what it got to. Kirk took more money and a better overall situation. The Redskins said no to that albatross of a deal. It was ideal for both camps. Signing Cousins prior to the tag would have made sense, but I'm not sure the team is any better even with Kirk (who is a vastly superior quarterback to Haskins at the moment, obviously). Reason being the previous regime. In hindsight, with Ron Rivera, having Cousins around now would have been beneficial. But there's nothing saying he'd even be around at this point. Or that the dominoes fall the same way with Kirk here. It's ENTIRELY possible that this team stays in the 6-10 to 9-7 range and Bruce Allen remains if Cousins is the quarterback. It's also possible Allen still gets canned. We don't know. But I think this team toils in mediocrity with Cousins still around due to how bad the regime was. I'm happy for Cousins. I disliked his penchant for the big mistake in the big moment. I called him Tony Romo many times. And I think he will still be prone to that. But it was nice to see the guy get that monkey off of his back. He's a good quarterback. And a good man. In your scenario, there's also the issue of giving Cousins a fully-guaranteed contract for 3 years after the 2015 season, and that contract ending last offseason. Do we do another fully-guaranteed 3 year contract for a QB who may have only guiding the team to 7-9 and 8-8 records?... Last season damn near the entire Vikings fan base and the majority of the sports media deemed it a mistake for the Vikings to sign him to that contract...and if this wildcard win is the pinnacle of Kirk's success with the Vikings, they will continue to say it. Would we have ended up giving Kirk that same contract last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 20 minutes ago, Llevron said: Also its 2020. Time to update your arguments playa. We cant stay in 2018 forever. You are aware that Smith said he intends to play in 2020 playa? And when is the statute of limitations up on when I can bring up how god-awful our offense looked with him at the helm? When he's...I don't know...off of the roster? 11 minutes ago, Califan007 said: Nope. Nothing whatsoever to do with him considering the offers too low. Kirk had only two goals after the 2015 season: get a fully-guaranteed contract for 3 years, or become a free agent. The Skins were not gonna give him the league's first fully-guaranteed contract after starting for one year, and definitely not without any ability to keep him beyond 3 years. It could be argued that no team in the NFL would have said "yes" to those demands. Skins tried negotiating--as all teams across the league do--with a player who was never gonna negotiate with them. kirk being offended by Bruce's low ball offers is a talking point that's not rooted in any truth. Bruce Allen's mouthpiece to the rescue again. The Redskins, unconvinced after one full season with Cousins as a starter that he was a franchise quarterback, countered by offering a deal in the neighborhood of $16 million per year with $24 million guaranteed. It was a particularly unimpressive offer given that Cousins stood to earn $19.95 million guaranteed by playing under the franchise tag. “On May 2nd, right after the draft, we made Kirk an offer that included the highest fully guaranteed amount upon signing for a quarterback in NFL history ($53 million) and guaranteed a total of $72 million for injury,” Allen said, without taking questions. “The deal would have made him at least the second-highest-paid player by average per year in NFL history. But despite our repeated attempts, we have not received any offer from Kirk’s agent this year.” What Allen’s statement neglected to mention was that Cousins stood to make almost as much in guaranteed money by playing on the franchise tag in 2017 ($24 million) and the transition tag ($28 million) in 2018, and even more guaranteed money if the Redskins dared use the franchise tag on him at a cost of $34 million in 2018. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/03/13/kirk-cousins-in-washington-a-timeline-from-awkward-start-to-lucrative-departure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said: You are aware that Smith said he intends to play in 2020 playa? And when is the statute of limitations up on when I can bring up how god-awful our offense looked with him at the helm? When he's...I don't know...off of the roster? Oh ok so not gonna respond to any of the other stuff that just decimates your ****ty argument? When I asked you if you thought your response was smart it was a hint and you missed it clearly. But whatever. You can bring up whatever you want I guess. No one has made me a mod so I cant stop you. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mania Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: You are aware that Smith said he intends to play in 2020 playa? And when is the statute of limitations up on when I can bring up how god-awful our offense looked with him at the helm? When he's...I don't know...off of the roster? His contract is so bad. Alex Smith's cap hit next season is 21.4m, but his dead cap is 32.2m dollars. If we cut him, he will cost us 11m. That being said I do remember them having a decent record when Alex Smith went down with an injury. Many thought we were going to win the division before he went down, but now that he hasn't played football for 1 1/2 years, how good can he be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I would miss him if he was putting the squad on his back with regularity. And there is still time for that to happen so we will see. But as of right now it looks like the vikes are winning with him and not because of him. If cook wouldnt have played last night I dont think they are even close to winning that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Llevron said: Anyone with a demonstrated understanding of football saying Smith is a better QB than Cousins will do. How about the former head coach of the team?https://sports.yahoo.com/jay-gruden-feels-redskins-definitely-improved-qb-alex-smith-kirk-cousins-131757646.html Josh Norman?https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2818649-josh-norman-redskins-would-have-won-super-bowl-with-alex-smith Bucky Brooks?https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/4/1/17183284/bucky-brooks-agrees-with-jay-gruden-that-alex-smith-is-an-upgrade-at-qb-kirk-cousins-nfl I mean I can keep going...and if you honestly don't remember the myriad of "we were 6-3" posts from fans during 2018, you are in some serious denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddub52 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Yeah they were pretty much a .500 team with Kirk. Interesting part is they were 7-25 in the 2 seasons prior to Kirk being named the starter and 10-20 in the 2 seasons after he left. So clearly Kirk elevate a crap team to at least respectability. I was thrilled to see that game yesterday, Kirk finally shed the label of choking dog. I have no idea why he got more hate than Heath Shuler around here. Sure Kirk choked, he was also the most productive Redskins QB in a generation and they threw him away for nothing. EVERY pro athlete is trying to maximize their earnings and there is not a damned thing wrong with that. Someone posted a meme of a scrubby guy saying “her elbows are pointy, 2/10”. Thats pretty much how I see the Kirk hating fans. Kirk was way out of our league and we should have been happy to have him. I still believe he hasn’t reached his ceiling, and he certainly hadn’t when he was with us. I understand that fans are hurt he didn’t stay, but do you blame him? Would you work for Bruce? I wish him well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: How about the former head coach of the team?https://sports.yahoo.com/jay-gruden-feels-redskins-definitely-improved-qb-alex-smith-kirk-cousins-131757646.html Read this and what your argument is again. You said FANS specifically, but if we are going to ignore that Gruden (who we fired cause hes dumb) said this before Smith even took a single snap. So this is stupid. 4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: Josh Norman?https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2818649-josh-norman-redskins-would-have-won-super-bowl-with-alex-smith I mean, you quoting Josh Norman to prove your point should be enough but I wont let that stop me from pointing out that he even says we were gonna win the superbowl that season. Does that sound serious to you? Im pretty sure this is the definition of a fluff piece and he doesnt directly say that Smith is better, just that hes not a QB that loses games. That should tell you something too. You should try reading these after you google them. 4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: Bucky Brooks?https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/4/1/17183284/bucky-brooks-agrees-with-jay-gruden-that-alex-smith-is-an-upgrade-at-qb-kirk-cousins-nfl Before Smith took a single snap as a Redskin. So again not relevant. YOU said 24 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: it wasn't directed at you, but the majority of fans who during 2018 insisted that we upgraded at quarterback would point to Smith not turning the ball over. So that is what I was arguing. Im not defending Bucky Brooks and you cant make me lol. If you wanna move your own goalposts then fine, but im not playing. 4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: I mean I can keep going...and if you honestly don't remember the myriad of "we were 6-3" posts from fans during 2018, you are in some serious denial. Again, im not talking about "we are 6-3 and Smiths consistency helps". Im specifically arguing your claim that people here, fans, said during the 2018 season that Alex Smith was a better QB than Kirk Cousins. And there could have been people saying it. Just show it to me if you want to continue this dumb ass argument of yours. Remember we started with something entirely different but im following you down this rabbit hole just to prove your argument/post was just full of **** and nothing else really useful to anyone. We can get back on topic if thats what you wanna do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Llevron said: Again, im not talking about "we are 6-3 and Smiths consistency helps". Im specifically arguing your claim that people here, fans, said during the 2018 season that Alex Smith was a better QB than Kirk Cousins. And there could have been people saying it. Just show it to me if you want to continue this dumb ass argument of yours. Remember we started with something entirely different but im following you down this rabbit hole just to prove your argument/post was just full of **** and nothing else really useful to anyone. We can get back on topic if thats what you wanna do. Do you seriously want me to go through Twitter and find the people who claimed he was better than Kirk? Or Facebook posts? "The majority of fans" does not mean this message board. But this thread would be a good refresher. I'm not making this up out of the blue: Also: I am glad we have Haskins now moving forward, but I still root for and want Cousins to succeed to have even more egg all over the fired face of Bruce Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Just now, DJHJR86 said: Do you seriously want me to go through Twitter and find the people who claimed he was better than Kirk? Or Facebook posts? "The majority of fans" does not mean this message board. But this thread would be a good refresher. I'm not making this up out of the blue: I understand you feel like this is a valid stance. That you are sticking it to the guys that said Alex is better. But if you are sticking it to them and that doesnt mean me, who you quoted, or the fans here on this message board who are the only ones who will read it....then whats the point? Pissing into the wind as they say. It was a stupid response. No i dont seriously want you to do anything but admit your post was stupid or stop responding to me. Either will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 35 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: Bruce Allen's mouthpiece to the rescue again. Apparently you are unaware of Kirk's own words in a recent interview, which trumps all the other nonsense and absolutely negates your opinion. I actually think I posted it already in this thread lol... Kurt: "This is why it's so important to have a good agent, as soon as 2015 season was over and it looked like I would be franchise tagged my agent said the only way you are not getting franchise tagged is if the Redskins agree to do a 3 year deal fully guaranteed. My agent started the conversation right away to let the Redskins know that was our vision all along and I don't think the Redskins agreed with that which is fine." So, well before the Skins ever made an offer to Kirk that could have had the chance TO insult him, he decided with his agent that it was either a 3-yr fully guaranteed contract or it was free agency. He didn't refuse to counter their offer because it was a lowball offer...he refused to counter because he wanted them to know the only contract he would consider signing was a fully guaranteed 3 year deal...and at the time nobody was doing deals like that, nonetheless for a QB with only one full year of starts who was shaky as hell up until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Just now, Llevron said: It was a stupid response. Because he's still on the team, and some see him as a viable option to start next year if healthy. Which I do not want, and hope we can somehow fleece the Bears into trading for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILikeBilly Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Has anyone picture the Vikings and Ravens making the Super Bowl? If LJax gets a little banged up, we would have RGIII vs Kirk. I would certainly have a pit in my stomach wondering what might have been.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said: some see him as a viable option to start next year if healthy. I just want you to back this kind of stuff up when you say it but I get it. Ima leave it alone. 1 minute ago, ILikeBilly said: Has anyone picture the Vikings and Ravens making the Super Bowl? If LJax gets a little banged up, we would have RGIII vs Kirk. I would certainly have a pit in my stomach wondering what might have been.... Dont do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I can say with certainty that DJHJR86 is correct in that there was a ton of fluff around the Alex Smith acquisition, with a lot of crap being spewed. We had some folks stretching mightily to find reasons why Alex was that dude. One of my favorites, is that Kirk wasn't capable of riding a running game and making the checkdowns, that he was prone to force it and turn the ball over, and is why we couldn't win with Kirk and that Alex Smith's style was exactly what the doctor ordered. Which is why I smirk when I see Kirk play Alex Smith like games now that he has a running game that he never had here. Like uhh yeah, there's a reason why Kirk forced a lot of junk here - because the passing game was all we had going for us. It's not that he's just hell bent on throwing it all over the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, ILikeBilly said: Has anyone picture the Vikings and Ravens making the Super Bowl? If LJax gets a little banged up, we would have RGIII vs Kirk. I would certainly have a pit in my stomach wondering what might have been.... I have not pictured that and yeah - it would make for a cool Super Bowl. But, I just don't see how it's possible the Ravens make the SB with RG3 having to play QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 By the way, I just checked the Urban Dictionary...apparently, "Bruce Allen's mouthpiece" is slang for "Intelligent person who really knows his ****" lol... You wacky kids today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Yes specifically regarding the deal he offered them after 2015 (I think) ... 3 years at what, $17-$20M per. That's an absolute steal in this environment. Egregious not to take it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I can say with certainty that DJHJR86 is correct in that there was a ton of fluff around the Alex Smith acquisition, with a lot of crap being spewed. We had some folks stretching mightily to find reasons why Alex was that dude. One of my favorites, is that Kirk wasn't capable of riding a running game and making the checkdowns, that he was prone to force it and turn the ball over, and is why we couldn't win with Kirk and that Alex Smith's style was exactly what the doctor ordered. Which is why I smirk when I see Kirk play Alex Smith like games now that he has a running game that he never had here. Like uhh yeah, there's a reason why Kirk forced a lot of junk here - because the passing game was all we had going for us. It's not that he's just hell bent on throwing it all over the field. There is always fluff whenever we make a new trade or pick up a new player. Its the Redskins they always do that. We all know it. But no one who knew anything was watching the 2018 season and thinking "Damn that Alex Smith is such a good QB". No one, not one ****ing person could have known anything about football and watched that **** and really thought that he was that dude. But its COMPLETELY REASONABLY to think that Alex's consistency in protecting the football helped. That was the real argument. Also Kirk has a running game and still is up and down in Minny and still forces balls. The only people who thought having a run game would change him as a player were the people who are defending him right now. And that is wrong. He is the same player he always was, just more polished (which in fairness is proof to how hard he does work at his craft) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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