Serious Question: Do you regret letting Cousins go?

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

Because that seems to be where everything fell apart, the longer each side postures the more likely that someone will start to take it personally, sometimes both sides.

 

 

You seem to put a lot of stock when Kirk speaks.  Well,  Kirk himself said in an interview once as to the 2016 situation he and his agent understood.  You want to talk about Scot.   Kirk flat out said he understood Scot's position in 2016.  It was one year of production, then.    Jones said many times it was January 2017 when the whole thing went off the rails for a number of reasons.   The offer in the Spring was better but still a mile off and the press release that followed it sure didn't help.

 

I've pulled old quotes onto this thread already, if I feel like digging some more I'll see if I can find those, too.  But I recall them clear as day. 

 

I am gathering you want to feel better about backing what went down by saying this was a Scot driven thing not Bruce.  But if so, I am 100% sure you are wrong on that.  Because Scot has actually spoken about it, I posted that quote on this same thread.  He flat out said once the tag happened in 2017, you have to find a way to bring Kirk back. 

 

And I do believe in early 2017 he wanted to trade him, too much evidence points that way to believe otherwise.  Plus Scot flat out said they made a mistake on the contract.  I don't know how much more evidence you need on that front?

 

10 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

 

I understand the player makes the decision but all dialogue passes through the agent so they decide what information makes it to the player.  Kirk loves his agent, you heard him talk about it several times in his various interviews.  His agent is the one who said to Kirk after the 2015 season that "we aren't signing a contract with the Redskins unless its a fully guaranteed 3 year deal" so to think he didn't have control over the process seems a bit naive.

 

I really don't believe this whole Kirk saga was as cookie cutter as some make it seem, you have a player who sits the bench for the better portion of 3 years, starts the last year of his contract and doesn't play particularly well but then has a very good 2nd half of the season and finishes with a division title.

 

And then he wants a fully guaranteed 3 year deal?  

 

I trust Jones and Keim on what was going down behind the scenes.  Why?  Because they ended up right at every turn.  Jones said Kirk's side had some give on the guaranteed money early on 2017 if the team came close to what they wanted.  But because Bruce started off the negotiation with some acrimony and accompanied it with a low ball offer then that went out the window.   

 

In that same podcast, Kirk said they thought the deal would get done if the Giants game didn't happen (consistent with Jones' narrative, too).  I doubt that's because he was 100% locked in to a tee with no flexibility on the contract.  And if Keim is correct (he doubled down on this just a month ago) and Bruce was the one in the building (unlike others) who didn't want to trade Kirk because he thought that they could get a deal done right till the end.  Then if Kirk was that inflexible boy to that point wiz right by Bruce's head. 

 

This part isn't directed at you.  I don't see how Bruce comes out of this as the conquering hero no matter what angle we use.  He 100% blew it anyway you cut it -- the negotiation itself, not trading him, Plan B.  All of it.  The reason why we stink right now has much to do with how he handled this, every part of it.   And if people doubt that Bruce was that obtuse then just check out what he did with Trent. Read Joel Corry's accounts with dealing with Bruce.  The Kirk thing wasn't some one off thing for Bruce. 

 

But even if I ran the script your way 100%.  I can't take any of Bruce's (Dan's) positions seriously because he never made a serious offer.  We can say Kirk would never budge.  Jones was wrong and Kirk's side had zero flexibility.  And Bruce wasn't a jerk in the process but a perfect gentlemen.  Kirk's side loved his press release.  All of it.  I'll flip all the narratives on its head.   Still, Kirk's side was never tested with a legitimate offer.  So for us to condemn Kirk's side for lack of flexibility?  Again that would be like me underbidding on a house dramatically and yet accusing the seller for not budging.  To me that would be beyond bizarre. 

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This part isn't directed at you.  I don't see how Bruce comes out of this as the conquering hero no matter what angle we use.  He 100% blew it anyway you cut it -- the negotiation itself, not trading him, Plan B.  All of it.  The reason why we stink right now has much to do with how he handled this, every part of it.   And if people doubt that Bruce was that obtuse then just check out what he did with Trent. Read Joel Corry's accounts with dealing with Bruce.  The Kirk thing wasn't some one off thing for Bruce. 

 

  Not to budge in on your convo, but just to add a little side dish;

 The above statement was exactly the same scenario that Bruce was in while with Tampa Bay.

Bruce didn't want to pay vets more money when it was time, and he single-handedly broke up the Bucs team before being thrown in the dumpster himself. He tried the negative approach with some players to try and use that as leverage, and they became pissed at him and left via FA., and soon after the Bucs were a shell of what they once were.

 He was playing the Scrooge part better than Scrooge could have.

 

ok I'm leaving now...lol

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

  Not to budge in on your convo, but just to add a little side dish;

 The above statement was exactly the same scenario that Bruce was in while with Tampa Bay.

Bruce didn't want to pay vets more money when it was time, and he single-handedly broke up the Bucs team before being thrown in the dumpster himself. He tried the negative approach with some players to try and use that as leverage, and they became pissed at him and left via FA., and soon after the Bucs were a shell of what they once were.

 He was playing the Scrooge part better than Scrooge could have.

 

ok I'm leaving now...lol

 

People make fun of on twitter about Grant Paulsen being in the tank for Kirk.  And he certainly is the tank for him.  I got no problem with it though.  I saw Kirk and Grant interact over a weekend during Kirk's QB camp that my kids participated in, where I was baking in the sun for about 10 hours combined.  So I buy that there is a close Grant-Kirk relationship.

 

Grant on occasion in radio segments would slip some of the things he heard from Kirk that included that he didn't like Bruce and that was the prime reason why "he didn't want to be there" as some through this day give him a hard time for.  One segment Grant flat out said there is one reason why Kirk wants to leave and that's Bruce Allen.   He thought he was a douche and incompetent.   Grant said Kirk said the incompetence would also show in little ways like they told his agent that a new offer would be coming in a week and then they were sent that exact same offer as previously.

 

On the coaches thread there is an article posted that implies that a likely hot coaching candidate Greg Roman this off season might already be put off by the FO for hiring Jay without telling him -- they told him they wanted to interview him and scheduled a meeting.  Yet, they didn't tell him they hired Jay and it was off. Roman learned at the same time as the public.  

 

Somehow is it that much of a reach that Kirk wouldn't even want to deal with Bruce and this FO let alone humor their low ball offers?  The odd press release IMO demonstrated the clown show loud and clear.  Some said that was the final straw with Kirk's camp. 

 

It was tough to tell who was upset what as to Kirk versus Kirk camp.  But as mentioned, Kirk trusted his agent so whatever put off the agent mattered.   From what I recall for example the press release put off Kirk's agent much more than Kirk.

 

Kirk is as we know a spiritual dude and seems to ride on the front that whatever happens happens for a reason so some of the reports indicated he was OK with wherever the ride took him.  But I got little doubt that he was happy to leave that building and didn't trust Bruce. 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 11/28/2019 at 7:55 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I hated the Alex Smith deal when it happened.  Even before it happened I talked about it as worse case scenario.   That wasn't me picking on Alex but the idea of trading some youth for a 34 year old QB who relied on his legs some for a team that wasn't IMO ready to make a big climb.  I gather Dan loves those types of QBs because it was similar with McNabb and Brunell.   Similar age QBs who relied some on their legs. 

 

I hated the deal too and anyone who was fine with his play based on the 6-3 record and his lack of turnovers is not being honest and probably holding this opinion based on their opinion of Kirk.  Smith was not nearly good enough based on the price they paid in terms of salary a pick, and a very good young player. As you said another Mark Brunell.  They won despite his game management style, he simply did not make enough plays for his performances to be sustainable. That's kind of what happens when you trade for  34 year old QB who 2 contending teams determined was not good enough.  When you look at his career it only contains a few good seasons.  

[ThePackisback]

Happy belated Thanksgiving to all you guys! I hope you had a great day.

[JSSkinz]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jones was wrong and Kirk's side had zero flexibility

If there was flexibility then why did the Vikes have to give him 3 years fully guaranteed?  They're a much better franchise over the last 2 decades and were coming off an NFC championship berth.  

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am gathering you want to feel better about backing what went down by saying this was a Scot driven thing not Bruce. 

Yes but only to show that it wasn't as cookie cutter as people think, I've criticized Scott for his time here but you can't take away his body of work and 2 years doesn't define an entire career but yes, Scott is heavily accountable for this situation and his initial declination of the contract after 2015 probably set us on this course.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He flat out said once the tag happened in 2017, you have to find a way to bring Kirk back. 

That's a pretty broad statement he made which is backed up with no details.  What was he going to do? Did he mean he was now ready to give Kirk a fully guaranteed deal?  It's easy to say things when you no longer are held accountable.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But even if I ran the script your way 100%.  I can't take any of Bruce's (Dan's) positions seriously because he never made a serious offer.

I don't have a script, I just have questions and $53M guaranteed may be low in McCartney's eyes but its a starting point, one that they weren't interested in because they were dead set on a fully guaranteed 3 year deal.

[OVCChairman]

On 11/27/2019 at 3:43 PM, CjSuAvE22 said:

Where in that article and gruden interview is anything about him missing receivers and not taking shots....Gruden even said that kirk was playing well....

Can they alienate alex smith too...or are we just gonna pay him 24 mil a year for free....anyone who knew football and loved the redskins hearts sunk when that trade was announced evem healthy he wasn't gonna eclipse 16tds...

 

 

Gruden made comment about pushing the ball down field.  I quoted it.

 

It was no secret that kirk often did not look at recievers down field, instead opting for the "safer" throw while he was here.  That happened and was a point of a lot of discussions here when judging cousins.  I dont place all the criticism on him, we didnt have the best weapons to give a large amount of confidence that we were winning matchups on the outside.  I also think Grudens offense often worked short to long, so if the short option was a available on the first read, kirk took it.  

 

I would wonder how effective kirk would be in Jays offense without a dynamic pass catching TE and no Chris Thompson.  Its debatable, because Kirk is playing very well with a much more talented team right now.

[Tsailand]

1 hour ago, ThePackisback said:

Happy belated Thanksgiving to all you guys! I hope you had a great day.

 

You're in the wrong thread, friend. 

 

I hope you have December 23rd circled on your calendar.  Kirk is gonna ruin your whole Christmas.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

If there was flexibility then why did the Vikes have to give him 3 years fully guaranteed?  They're a much better franchise over the last 2 decades and were coming off an NFC championship berth.  

 

He was a FA, then.  Different scene.  He can call the shots then totally.  But I'll play it your way.  Keim said including recently he heard that people in that building in early 2017 thought they should trade Kirk.  Bruce disagreed and thought they can get it done.  If Kirk's inflexibility was that apparent then how did it escape Bruce who I'd presume is much more in the know than you and me?  And why would Kirk think he'd still be here if they defeated the Giants?  Kirk just thought he'd will it until the FO succumbed at that point?  And Bruce was just a well intentioned pollyanna who missed that Kirk's side was inflexible and serious?

 

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Yes but only to show that it wasn't as cookie cutter as people think, I've criticized Scott for his time here but you can't take away his body of work and 2 years doesn't define an entire career but yes, Scott is heavily accountable for this situation and his initial declination of the contract after 2015 probably set us on this course.

 

The only thing I put on Scot on this is not having the foresight in 2016.  Otherwise, he supposedly wanted to trade him in early 2017 and said later in 2017 you got to get a deal done.  He sang a different tune than Bruce after 2016.  And Scot at least admitted they made a mistake on the contract.  Bruce on the other hand has not. Admitting mistakes and learning from them is an important ingredient IMO for anyone who strives for success. 

 

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

 

That's a pretty broad statement he made which is backed up with no details.  What was he going to do? Did he mean he was now ready to give Kirk a fully guaranteed deal?  It's easy to say things when you no longer are held accountable.

I think at the very least it means offer Kirk a reasonable deal before crying foul.    Yes, that's easy to do.  It's what most teams do if they want to get a deal done.  If then Kirk turned it down, then maybe Bruce would have something to whine about.  

 

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

 

I don't have a script, I just have questions and $53M guaranteed may be low in McCartney's eyes but its a starting point, one that they weren't interested in because they were dead set on a fully guaranteed 3 year deal.

 

An agent got into detail (great article from MMQB which I posted on the previous Kirk thread) about a situation that had nothing to do with Kirk...agents typically don't counter offer very low offers compared to true market value.  Why not?  Because for starters it shows weakness in the negotiation that you'd even humor it.  And it also shows the team's true interest in the player which matters to both the agent and player.   And once a player is clearly poised to hit the market or is at an impasse with a player contractually -- it becomes very clear what OTHER teams are valuing the client at.  That to me was the most interesting part of the article which is the agent knows which teams are interested and ball park what they are willing to pay -- and how to do it while avoiding tampering. 

 

Putting this in my shoes.  If Bruce was acting like a douche in a negotiation and blamed me for his team missing the playoffs and followed that with an insulting offer.  And I thought the dude had little class and was incompetent.  And i was told by my agent that hint hint I have an idea what other teams are valuing you at and it's miles higher.  I'd tell Bruce to F-off let alone humor him for months.  According to Keim for a couple of months in 2017 there was that type of tension where Kirk told some he's not coming back.  Bruce then kissed up and regained some ground mid Springish.  He made a better offer than the previous insulting one but it was still low and then put the cherry on top with the insulting press release.

 

I documented all that stuff on the Kirk thread at the time.  I don't feel like debating this anymore.  It's nothing to do with you.  I respect you as a poster.  But the Kirk thing was so exhausting and I've purposely mostly avoided the Kirk thread in the Around the Football section to avoid delving back into this stuff.  So for now at least, I am done arguing the contract unless by whim I am compelled to kick in again about something. 😀

 

It doesn't really matter in my mind right now anyway.  My key interest in it is how does Dan-Bruce look when it's all said and done.  And they look like fools to most of the fans.  It doesn't matter to me if all the fans agree with this or not.  The damage to me is done with most.  And hopefully this along with the series of other bad decisions they made leads to positive change.

 

 

[JSSkinz]

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't feel like debating this anymore.  It's nothing to do with you.  I respect you as a poster.

I completely understand the way you feel and just so you know I enjoy the content you put up and look forward to the draft stuff as we finish out this hideous year.

 

Heres to hoping that Tweet from Garafolo has some legs. 

 

[ThePackisback]

12 hours ago, Tsailand said:

 

You're in the wrong thread, friend. 

 

I hope you have December 23rd circled on your calendar.  Kirk is gonna ruin your whole Christmas.

Your probably right. I don't see us winning that game or going past the first round of the playoffs.

[CowboyKillerz]

Still no.

[Malapropismic Depository]

5 minutes ago, CowboyKillerz said:

Still no.

 

I bet the timing is not a coincidence.

A bump in this thread at this time, is not surprising

[PartyPosse]

I miss Rex 🙁

[CowboyKillerz]

Has context.. 0-8 monday night or something? Worse first 8 record... Ever?

 

He has his moments.. Winning big games just aint one of em.

 

That minni team is STACKED. If they miss the post season AGAIN?! Wow

[ThePackisback]

1 hour ago, CowboyKillerz said:

Has context.. 0-8 monday night or something? Worse first 8 record... Ever?

 

He has his moments.. Winning big games just aint one of em.

 

That minni team is STACKED. If they miss the post season AGAIN?! Wow

I loved watching Minnesota lose. Unfortunately we play them in Minnesota Week 16. I think They will beat us but I hope to be wrong.

[Malapropismic Depository]

1 hour ago, ThePackisback said:

I loved watching Minnesota lose. Unfortunately we play them in Minnesota Week 16. I think They will beat us but I hope to be wrong.

 

If you can't beat Minnesota, then shouldn't you change your Username to "ThePackIsntQuiteBackYet" ?

[Llevron]

in all fairness 30 points should be enough to win most games. And I think the Seahawks cheat at home lol

 

Clearly my e key sucks 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 hours ago, CowboyKillerz said:

 

That minni team is STACKED. If they miss the post season AGAIN?! Wow

Have you ever actually watched them play?  Their defense gets shredded regularly - typically through the air, last night both.  They have 2 great weapons at WR but one of them hasn't played since October.  Dalvin Cook is a monster, but now even he is a question mark.  The Oline is nothing to brag about either.  

 

They are pretty much right where they belong record wise and in the playoff hunt.  A good team, but not stacked by any stretch.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Have you ever actually watched them play?  Their defense gets shredded regularly - typically through the air, last night both.  They have 2 great weapons at WR but one of them hasn't played since October.  Dalvin Cook is a monster, but now even he is a question mark.  The Oline is nothing to brag about either.  

 

They are pretty much right where they belong record wise and in the playoff hunt.  A good team, but not stacked by any stretch.

 

They are a one man band at receiver (until Thielen returns) with Diggs who basically cost them the game yesterday.  Bad O line.  Kirk is very good this season.  Cook is killer good but he got hurt yesterday.  The defense is pedestrian which surprises me for a Zimmer coached team.   In spite of all of that, I do think they make the post season.  Beating the 10-2 Seattle team on the road isn't easy, they almost did it though, good game.   I think Seattle is a sneaky SB threat. 

 

[skinsmania123]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They are a one man band at receiver (until Thielen returns) with Diggs who basically cost them the game yesterday.  Bad O line.  Kirk is very good.  Cook is killer good but he got hurt yesterday.  The defense is pedestrian which surprises me for a Zimmer coached team. 

 

I agree with all your points and something else, and maybe I am wrong, I thought their secondary was their only weak link, but last night the Vikes run D got gashed for over 200 yards. Your not going to win games like that.  Cousins is solid.  It is impressive. He cannot possibly make up for all those deficiencies  Cook is great but that fumble that led to the short field and FG really hurt down the stretch last night.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

I agree with all your points and something else, and maybe I am wrong, I thought their secondary was their only weak link, but last night the Vikes run D got gashed for over 200 yards. Your not going to win games like that.  Cousins is solid.  It is impressive. He cannot possibly make up for all those deficiencies  Cook is great but that fumble that led to the short field and FG really hurt down the stretch last night.  

 

 

Yeah Cook's fumble turned the tide and then his injury came from that same play.  The interception IMO was on Diggs, the corner basically just beat him on a contested throw.    I didn't think they'd beat Seattle.  Kirk played well though.  

 

Yeah Minny's defense is very underwhelming.  

[ThePackisback]

6 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

If you can't beat Minnesota, then shouldn't you change your Username to "ThePackIsntQuiteBackYet" ?

We probably aren't. I mean we lost to Philly, LA and the 49ers.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

The real question should be , "Do you regret letting RGIII go, at least there is  good & bad numbers, Playoff and atrocious seasons to compare ? Only a fool would make a case for letting Cousins go compared to the current clown show of QB's currently on the roster 🤣. The numbers don't lie and its better to be on the cusp of 500 with a feared passing game then be the laughing stock of the NFC with Haskins.

 

Passing

 

•  
•  
•  
•  

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
Career					90	85	42-41-2	2045	3060	66.8	23536	152	5.0	69	2.3	1116	81	7.7	7.7	11.5	261.5	97.0		168	1267	6.90	6.88	5.2	10	13	55
6 yrs		WAS			62	57	26-30-1	1372	2096	65.5	16206	99	4.7	55	2.6	763	81	7.7	7.5	11.8	261.4	93.7		106	847	6.98	6.75	4.8	8	12	43
2 yrs		MIN			28	28	16-11-1	673	964	69.8	7330	53	5.5	14	1.5	353	75	7.6	8.0	10.9	261.8	104.2		62	420	6.73	7.15	6.0	2	1	12
2012	24	WAS	qb	12	3	1	1-0-0	33	48	68.8	466	4	8.3	3	6.3	20	77	9.7	8.6	14.1	155.3	101.6	77.7	3	27	8.61	7.53	5.9	1	1	2
2013	25	WAS	qb	12	5	3	0-3-0	81	155	52.3	854	4	2.6	7	4.5	42	62	5.5	4.0	10.5	170.8	58.4	41.7	5	32	5.14	3.67	3.1			-2
2014	26	WAS	qb	8	6	5	1-4-0	126	204	61.8	1710	10	4.9	9	4.4	75	81	8.4	7.4	13.6	285.0	86.4	52.0	8	70	7.74	6.77	3.8			4
2015	27	WAS	QB	8	16	16	9-7-0	379	543	69.8	4166	29	5.3	11	2.0	205	78	7.7	7.8	11.0	260.4	101.6	71.7	26	186	6.99	7.14	4.6	2	3	12
2016*	28	WAS	QB	8	16	16	8-7-1	406	606	67.0	4917	25	4.1	12	2.0	227	80	8.1	8.0	12.1	307.3	97.2	66.1	23	190	7.52	7.45	3.7	4	4	15
2017	29	WAS	QB	8	16	16	7-9-0	347	540	64.3	4093	27	5.0	13	2.4	194	74	7.6	7.5	11.8	255.8	93.9	54.2	41	342	6.46	6.38	7.1	1	4	12
2018	30	MIN	QB	8	16	16	8-7-1	425	606	70.1	4298	30	5.0	10	1.7	218	75	7.1	7.3	10.1	268.6	99.7	58.2	40	262	6.25	6.48	6.2	1	0	12
2019	31	MIN	QB	8	12	12	8-4-0	248	358	69.3	3032	23	6.4	4	1.1	135	66	8.5	9.3	12.2	252.7	111.9	61.7	22	158	7.56	8.30	5.8	1	1

 

 

🤪im glad he's gone

[NoCalMike]

Kirk is more than capable of having very good games, but at this stage in his career he isn't going to be judged by his box score.  He is going to be judged on not being able to generate 3 yards in two tries to convert a 1st down in the biggest game of the season for him and the Vikings.  That is just the way it is.  It doesn't make him a bad QB, but it also shows he isn't on that next level.