FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KillBill26]

9 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I'm not all that afraid Harmon wont last on the practice squad.  He went in the 6th round and was the 23rd WR taken, so I suspect the scouting reports around the league werent as bullish as his camp performance might suggest they should have been. 

I don't see Harmon lasting a day on the practice squad.  Other NFL teams are in tune to how these guys are performing in camp, and once teams discard their own players who they took a flyer on and injuries start adding up, the roster crunch loosens a bit, and at least one team would want to see what Harmon could do with them.

 

Wr is definitely an interesting position group.  I'd hate to give up on doctson, but in a season that is highly likely to finish with a losing record, I'd be more disappointed if they cut sims / Davis / Harmon (I think Quinn and McLaurin are locks) and kept doc.  Honestly, I'd rather them cut p rich than anyone.  Clear the cap space and give the young bucks a shot.

 

Sorry for being off-topic, just realized this is Haskins thread.  I hope they redshirt him, so I'm not concerned with rookie preseason struggles.  I hope the Redskins challenge him a bit to get a better understanding of where he is right now.  A lot of what that's been discussed relates to poor footwork, which only strengthens my belief that a redshirt is best for DH.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Though I admit Sims looked great, too so it escapes me why he's so much further down the depth chart.  The one thing that hits me about Sims is I recall a reporter asked him about his route running and he came off in his answer that he's not a big studier on that front.  He said something like he doesn't think too much about routes but just works to get open or something like that.  And another reporter said he's not the crispest route runner.  So maybe the thing with Sims is he has a ton of talent but the coaching staff doesn't trust him yet on timing routes, etc.

 

Oh blah...no wonder he was playing with the 3rd stringers despite the hype.  Part of running routes isn't just beating your man, part of running your routes has to be within the structure of the play.  As in, you're supposed to run your route differently depending on the defense.  On some plays, if you're the 3rd/4th read, you're likely trying to set up the 1st and/or 2nd reads to have more space as you draw the attention of the LB or S.  If it's Cover 2 and the LB is dropping back, you need to run either just under him or just behind him on some plays.  Where the Seam is differs depending on coverage.

 

In some schemes, two crossers going in opposite directions will require each WR to be close enough to each other that they can high five.  They want to generate traffic and make defenders have to loop around each other and the other WR.

 

If Sims doesn't get the greater concept of a play, then it's hard to insert him into the game as you'll then need to use a smaller playbook.

 

Edit:  Your post about that interview killed his chances (in my mind) for being a contributor this season.  He's not ready yet.

[Llevron]

57 minutes ago, rick7423 said:

I respectfully disagree. He has shown flashes of ability and toughness. The NFL is so different from college in so many ways. It takes time to allow the game to "slow down" (whatever that means) or for him to speed up.

 

Patience, grooming a good QB is like letting a fine wine mature, it takes time.

 

I dont think we disagree at all lol. 

 

Im not representing my opinion well. Im basically saying the same thing you are. I just dont think we need him to be ready right now or its a problem. I am totally cool with him taking whatever time he needs to for it to slow down. 

[JaxJoe]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I want to see McLaurin win the starting job over Richardson.  He's just better.  Bigger talent in most considerations.  

I want to see McLaurin start too, but Richardson statistically had the best hands last year - I think his catch rate was 59%. I don’t recommend  replacing that kind of production. Richardson’s trouble is health. My suggestion is move his 174lb body away from flanker into slot. 

 

Doctson, who’s catch rate is a paltry 50%, is the receiver who needs to be upgraded - although his last season was his best at 56%. In general, in the NFL, 65% is considered very good, 60% good. Doctson is not good. 

 

My beef with this years’ training camp has been Gruden hasn’t played McLaurin at X while Doctson is at Z. It’s always Doctson at X. Gruden should be trying different combinations. 

[Xameil]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Sims kind of feels like this year's Anthony Mix.

 

 

Is he tall?

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

What I didn't like: 

 

- He has to learn to play with trash at his feet.  You rarely get clean pockets in the NFL.  

- He relies too much on arm strength.  In the west cost offense you should see the QB's feet hitch/change position as they go thru their reads.  That way, if he likes an option then he'll be ready to throw.  On his second int his feet and hips never moved.  They were behind Flannagan instead of repositioning so that he'd be looking down his shoulder that's pointed to where the receiver will be.  Mechanical issue that would take a lot of work to overcome.  But HE MUST fix that or he's done.  

 

Bottom line:

 

If the season goes south after the first five games, especially if Colt goes down again, then I'm with Cooley on putting in DH.  See what you have in Haskins this year because next year you have some really good QB's coming out and not a lot of teams to compete with in the draft.  

 

1st point, yeah, he does.  Keenum does too.  I was disappointed in both QB's abilities to play against interior pressure.  Some of Keenum's throws were bad news when he couldn't step into the throw.  I just know if either QB starts, there will be some plays with interior pressure and we'll just know the plays over before it's really even started.

2nd point, yup.  That's the knock.  It's not so much evading pressure (which he can do on occasion and showed that last night), as it is getting his body ready for the next throw when his arm is ready.  Right now his torso moves at a different speed than his legs.

 

Bottom Line...I'm with you on putting DH in, but for different reasons.

 

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

I was very critical of the pick.  I thought we should have waited for Tua or Fromm next year.  However, it is what it is and I'm not going to make any rash judgments based on a limited sample size with not a lot of talent around him.  

 

 

Next years QB class always looks better than the current years.  Remember before Matt Barkley returned to school, people were legitimately saying he could be the 2nd QB drafted ahead of RG3.  Before he returned, people thought we probably didn't need to trade up as one of Barkley or RG3 was going to be there at #6.  He stayed in school, and before his last college season was viewed as the future #1 pick.  That obviously didn't happen.

[HOF44]

After last nights performance Haskins is like a Rorschach test.  What you see in him says more about you than him!  lol

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Though I admit Sims looked great, too so it escapes me why he's so much further down the depth chart.  The one thing that hits me about Sims is I recall a reporter asked him about his route running and he came off in his answer that he's not a big studier on that front.  He said something like he doesn't think too much about routes but just works to get open or something like that.  And another reporter said he's not the crispest route runner.  So maybe the thing with Sims is he has a ton of talent but the coaching staff doesn't trust him yet on timing routes, etc.

 

 

 

On the one hand, he's gotta have some of that work ethic in him.  Could explain why he couldnt get off the bench at Alabama.  It seems McLaurin has that.  

 

On the other hand, I sometimes think it's residue of not having a veteran, accomplished receiver to emulate and learn from.  The vet receivers are Richardson, Doctson, and Quick.  I dont think a young guy coming in is gonna gain a lot of wisdom about what it takes to prepare  in practice and succeed from this group.  

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

one very ugly INT, also a really bad sack on the DB blitz.

 

Agree on that second pick. In fact both picks were bad.

 

On the sack I assume you mean the last one he took when both the SS and a LB came from his left side. We have very basic protections in but I somehow got into an argument about this play on Twitter after the game. I have only seen the TV replay of this so I reserve the right to be flat wrong (and I refuse to go break down tape from a first preseason game!)

 

It looked like we were in a simple 'Jet' 6 man protection in which the line was sliding right leaving the LT to man up on their RDE and the back to pick up any additional rusher. The SS declared early as potential blitzer on our left so Haskins probably should have checked the protection to slide to that side. But we still should have picked it up. The T blocked their DE. Their DT was initially double teamed by our LG and C and both the LB and S rushed. So the LG came off the double team and picked up the backer. The back should have picked up the S. 

 

The backs rule is work inside out on who to block. Because the LG initially blocked the DT I think he thought the LB was coming clean as well as the S and ended up blocking the LB along with the LG. The S came clean. I THINK Haskins expected the back to pick him up so did not throw hot or just throw it away. We had the bodies to pick it up.

 

Regardless good play to watch over again for all concerned.

15 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I dont think a young guy coming in is gonna gain a lot of wisdom about what it takes to prepare  in practice and succeed from this group.  

 

Which is why we pay position coaches.

[Sonny9TD]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:00 PM, Redd said:

I'm not fond of this pick but as always I'll hope for the best.

Neither am I Haskins could have been had in the 2nd round if if got him at all. Waste of a 15 pick, We basically spent a 1st and next year's 2nd on Haskins because Sweat should have been the 15 pick. Haskins was a reach and to think Danny had to be talked off the edge of trading up. Could have got a better QB later in the draft. Haskins had wide open receivers at Ohio State and JT Barrett put up basically the same numbers with less. Haskins was not the QB we needed. Once i heard he was missing targets at Ohio State who were wide open i knew all he had was a strong arm with little touch. Guaranteed he doesn't make a successful career. A very poor man's Jameis Winston. He had NFL ready recievers to throw to who were always wide open at Ohio State. Even JT Barrett enjoyed success and is a better QB than Haskins truth be told. Should have taken the Auburn QB in the 4th but the Patriots knew what the deal was.

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Sonny9TD said:

Neither am I Haskins could have been had in the 2nd round if if got him at all. Waste of a 15 pick, We basically spent a 1st and next year's 2nd on Haskins because Sweat should have been the 15 pick. Haskins was a reach and to think Danny had to be talked off the edge of trading up. Could have got a better QB later in the draft. Haskins had wide open receivers at Ohio State and JT Barrett put up basically the same numbers with less. Haskins was not the QB we needed. Once i heard he was missing targets at Ohio State who were wide open i knew all he had was a strong arm with little touch. Guaranteed he doesn't make a successful career. A very poor man's James Winston. He had NFL ready recievers to throw to who were always wide open at Ohio State. Even JT Barrett enjoyed success and is a better QB then Haskins truth be told.

Fant, Savage or one of the 3 Oline to go in the next few picks would have been better.

[Going Commando]

That first sack Haskins took where Perine got smoked by the DT... I'd be interested to know why the **** the RG thought he should be handing off the God damn B gap rusher.  Who exactly did he think he was going to block?  There wasn't a blitz and they didn't show blitz.

 

The second string right side was absolute trash.  Play Pierschbacher and Flowers there for God's sake.

[Sonny9TD]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Fant, Savage or one of the 3 Oline to go in the next few picks would have been better.

Absolutely brother.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

I'm not all that afraid Harmon wont last on the practice squad.  He went in the 6th round and was the 23rd WR taken, so I suspect the scouting reports around the league werent as bullish as his camp performance might suggest they should have been. 

 

And if he's going to only get garbage time in the preseason, his chances to really impress around the league might be limited.

 

But he's that big target I want Haskins to have available.  

 

I get the point but using the same logic we should be able to get away with putting Quinn on the practice bubble too since he was a late 7th rounder.     Granted Quinn is a wildcard until he plays but he seems like he's a lock starter this year and the reports have been really good about him.  My point is draft status has context.  Plenty thought Quinn dropped further than he should have.    Sometimes that doesn't matter.  But sometimes it does. 

 

It became the key topic on ESPN when Quinn was taken as Mr. Irrelevant which is how did he drop this far considering some had a 4th round grade by some, etc.   In this draft the two Redskins that got the most buzz about them dropping further than expected were arguably Moreland and Harmon.   And yeah maybe the verdict ends up that their drop is justified. But it seems like every year we hear the narrative of so and so was a surprise fall and the rest of the NFL is now regretting it.  Now I am not going that far to push Harmon but am just saying the context of a player falling further than expected isn't always met with now we know why. Sometimes the narrative turns the other way. 

 

I am not saying you are saying otherwise on any of these points but I am just explaining my thought process. 

 

I get the idea that we all fall for receivers that don't pan out.  But count me among the ones who was surprised he fell to the 6th.  Maybe i am a bit biased because he was if I recall one of the last receivers I touted on the draft threat who were in that 2nd tier group.   I explained why on that thread but in short I liked what I saw.  I am just a layman so I could be dead wrong and most receivers don't pan out period.  However, what convinced me further that there might be something to Harmon is Kyle Smith echoing some of my same thoughts after the draft.  He talked him up good.  He said he thought of taking him in the 4th and thought he was way better than a 6th round talent.  He explained that the WR depth in the draft was really good and he wanted to address other positions first but was surprised and thrilled when he was still there in the 6th. 

 

The Draft Network which does some good work IMO on prospects has Brad Kelly who was a receivers coach and seems to have a good eye for diamond in the rough type receivers -- he really liked Trey Quinn and likewise really liked Harmon.   Harmon has some fans.  Maybe that doesn't extend to the NFL -- you got me one way or another.   But to me Kyle's rap about Harmon which was more over the top than it was on some of the other prospects he talked about -- gave me the impression that he'd be really reluctant to chance some other team taking him off their practice squad.  But who knows?  Will see. 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Can't properly evaluate Haskins playing behind our trash 3rd team OL.

[Sonny9TD]

Yea we can. The interceptions was when he had plenty of time to throw. But your point is taken. Maybe he felt rushed. Lol But will find out what i'm pretty sure i know but we'll see.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Sonny9TD]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This can be said for any QB

 

 

[wit33]

His willingness to throw with anticipation and in tight windows are unique. These are traits an offensive coach can build around, as rhythm throws can be schemed, but special type throws are required throughout a game to compete with the best. This is also a must for a pocket QB to lead teams to wins. 

 

Was there any dialogue from coaches or Haskins about the Flannigan throw? I love the throw if the play was designed for Flannigan to run up the seam all the way through . 

[RandyHolt]

I think he met reasonable expectations even for those that want to see him play this year.  I was glad to see him use his wheels. He will need them behind our truly offensive, line.

 

Grooming a raw QB is like making fine wine, it takes lots of footwork. It's more than patience. It's reps, lots of reps. 

[Veryoldschool]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He definitely shouldn't start week one.  First and foremost, he hasn't earned that right.  But even if he had, the results would be ugly.  When a team has the luxury of sitting their highly drafted QB of the future for a season (or even two), I think it is almost always to the benefit of that player's development.  And when I look at this offensive line and the meager receiving corps, if Haskins plays he's probably just going to be getting beat up without really learning much.  Too many fundamental offensive breakdowns to where he'd barely be playing in anything other than negative situation football.  No time to progress through complexity in the passing game.  Nothing to reinforce patience and good habits and reward excellence of execution.  Best thing to do would be to redshirt him for the year like Ohio State did.

 

But I do think he needs to play a lot in preseason.  I think the coaching staff should consider holding McCoy out entirely and let Haskins play almost all of the final three games.  He needs live-fire repetition in a low stakes situation like preseason.  This is a good opportunity for him to get out there and feel the speed and get hit and make some mistakes.

 

I agree.  I think the Skins should shine Keenum up to start and play Haskins a lot during the preseason so he gets a chance to get some field experience and Keenum is prepared to make the most of this season if the Skins stay in the race Keenum should play the whole year if they fall out of contention for the playoffs then maybe it would make sense to let Haskins play to season him but I don't want to play him before he understands the offense and defenses well enough to be successful.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

So I watched the Haskins cutup and here's how the OL (in pass protection) fared with him in there.  Just some general OL units verse # of pass rushers.  What did Haskins face along the line of scrimmage and was his reaction noteworthy?

 

The o-line seems to change throughout this.  Italics indicate who was new to the OL unit.

 

5 man o-line is now:  Penn - Flowers - Bergstrom - Kerrin - Parris

1st play, play action, only 4 Browns "rushing".

2nd play, 4 Browns rushing, a LB has a RB read, if he stays, blitz, if he goes out, cover him.

3rd play, basic zone D with a 4 man rush

5 man o-line is now:  Christian - Flowers - Bergstrom - Kerrin - Parris

4th, (1st Int), 4 man rush, Christian was too slow out of his stance, Flowers got buckled by the DT's punch but the DT also fell, can't tell if Flowers forced the fall or not.

5th, sack...Callahan probably wanted to light himself on fire for this one.  It's a 4 man rush...and the 3 Tech goes unblocked?  Seriously?  How?  Also Perine, cut block, do something.  Only people to actually block the DL were Christian (good rep) and Sprinkle (awkward but it worked)

5 man o-line is now:  Penn - Flowers - Bergstrom - Kerrin - Parris

6th, 4 man rush, IDL execute a twist stunt, leaves a lane open for Haskins and he scrambles for 9.  Penn almost had the block, but not enough punch, Haskins stepped up beautifully.  Parris got flat out worked at RT.

7th, 4 man rush

8th, 1st exotic blitz!  Show weakside A gap pressure by LB, but he along with the weakside Edge drop back into coverage.  The other LB blitzes the B gap.  Perine does enough to pick up the LB.  I feel like RG Kerrin should be doing more, keep his head up to see if stunts/blitzers are coming.  He kind of gets locked into the firs thing he does.  Haskins handles the exotic blitz well.

9th, 6 blitzers shown on the line, but only 5 rush the passer.  Haskins handles it well (I think Volsmet covered this one earlier).

10th, 5 rushers as a LB blitzes the B gap.  Every OL (even Flowers) does their job, but Parris needs to do more.  Does this guy have any punch at all?  He benefited from the TE chipping his guy too.

5 man o-line is now:  Christian - Martin - Bergstrom - Kerrin - Parris

11th, 4 man rush, IDL stunt with each other, no issues

12th, 5 man rush as LB hits the B gap over RG Kerrin immediately.  This was another read-option that Haskins kept for a gain.

13th, 3rd and 2, stacked box, 4 man rush with the rest looking for a run play

14th, 4 man rush, seems like a basic zone, Haskins immediately hits the quick out for a good chunk

15th, 4 man rush.  Haskins slight overthrow on a completely covered Flanagan by the sideline.  Can we get someone whose a bit better than Flanagan to play with Haskins? Nobody else seemed open, so Haskins decision seems fine.

16th, exotic blitz, show 7 blitzers.  But MLB and RE fall back into coverage.  This was the one Haskins spun out of a sack and almost hit Sims along the side of the endzone.

5 man o-line is now:  Penn - Martin - Bergstrom - Kerrin - Parris

17th, 5 guys on the line vs our kind of jumbo package with 2 TE's with hands in the dirt to the right of Parris.  Only 4 rush.  Penn sort of falls on his man.

18th, 2nd sack, stacked box in against 11 personnel.  Protection was slid to the wrong direction.  I think Martin might have been able to recover to pick up one of the blitzers before #22 smacked that guy.  Unclear, but that left a safety on a free run to the QB.  I'm going to guess Haskins thought the extra defender in the box (the safety) was just going to cover the TE instead of blitz.  Not sure if someone could've been the "hot" throw without an audible, the TV cuts off the WR/TE there.

 

Takeaways:

I like that they're switching around the OL.  Well at least on the left side, but they're trying out different OL combo's.

 

Penn might still be a bit out of shape.  Or maybe he's just old.

Christian needs consistency with how he gets out of his stance, he flashes better reps on occasion (imo) than Penn does.

Bergstrom is mediocre.

Kerrin needs to find some nasty.  There are opportunities he can take a pass rusher out of a play, he doesn't, and then that rusher works themselves into the play.  He has other issues, but that's one that sticks out.

Parris is awful.

Martin has a bit more drive power and punch than Flowers.  Flowers seems to just rely on having his huge frame in between the play and his defender.  I'd need to watch more of them to figure out whose better overall.  Didn't see enough of Martin to really tell yet.

 

The cutup I watched included zero running plays, so can't really tell how well Flanagan, Sprinkle, or the OL blocked in that regard.  Or see if Haskins was flipping the run play based on how the DL and Box looked.

 

 

[Riggo#44]

32 minutes ago, Sonny9TD said:

Yea we can. The interceptions was when he had plenty of time to throw. But your point is taken. Maybe he felt rushed. Lol But will find out what i'm pretty sure i know but we'll see.

 

It's also preseason. Making any kind of determination--good or bad--is hyperbolic, at best.

 

He looked good in flashes, he was WAY more mobile than I expected. But he's raw. Really, really raw, he needs to sit at least the 1st 8 games. In a way, I am glad he didn't go 10-14 with 2 TDs. Preseason is fools gold, and there would be pressure, from fans, the two buffoons in the front office to start him week 1.

[Skinsinparadise]

@Sonny9TD

 

I was one of the people on the record who didn't want Haskins at 15 at the time.   But I am not down on him based on last night, I agree with Baldinger in that he showed flashes.   You can't teach his arm talent.  You either got it or you don't.    He was poised.  Not every young QB is.   My favorite play was the one where he dodged pressure, rolled out to his left and threw a catchable ball in the end zone to Sims.   It's not easy to make a throw like that for a right handed QB.    I've written longish reports about Haskins pro and con.  i am far from totally sold.  But he's a young QB who will need time.   I liked more from what I saw than disliked last night.  But even if I hated it -- it was still just one pre season game where he was playing with a crap O line, almost no threat from the RBs until the later part of the game, where his top receiver was Darvin Kidsy. 

 

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

His willingness to throw with anticipation and in tight windows are unique. These are traits an offensive coach can build around, as rhythm throws can be schemed, but special type throws are required throughout a game to compete with the best. This is also a must for a pocket QB to lead teams to wins. 

 

Was there any dialogue from coaches or Haskins about the Flannigan throw? I love the throw if Flannigan was suppose to carry his route up through the seam all the way. 

 

I forgot the explanation but Jay said that INT was on Haskins.

[Going Commando]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I forgot the explanation but Jay said that INT was on Haskins. 

 

My theory about what Haskins was thinking on that play is that he realized he was about the **** the dog as he began the throw and that's why he sailed it.  An "ah ****" moment where he realized he was making a mistake too late to change course.