Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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17 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I've never believed that was actually true.  Snyder knows and has always known what's going on, what's being said, etc, IMO.  A zebra doesnt change its stripes. 

 

He doesn't show up at a half empty FedEx and look at Bruce going "you told me everything was fine!"

So you think that when a player farts in the locker room Bruce tells him about it?

And stadium being empty is because Redskins fans wants top dollars....

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7 minutes ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

Didn't we have a Bruce v. Vinny thread at one point?  Might be interesting to readress this.  With Vinny we were just a joke on the field.  With Bruce, we're a joke on and off the field.  (I'm not arguing for Vinny to come back in case anyone tries to claim I'm saying that.)

 

Maybe it would be interesting.   I saw a poll recently on twitter where fans disliked Bruce more than Vinny.  I've been on the record in the past that Bruce is slightly better than Vinny but I've turned on that point.   I am big into an organization's likability and he IMO has been much worse on that front over Vinny.  I've done some of the charity auction stuff over the years with the team's charitable foundation and interacted with some people who work there.  A lot of cool people who work there from my experience.  Heck I know some here don't like Larry Michael -- but I've met him and dealt with him on one issue and IMO he's a really good dude. 

 

I believe what one person who dealt with Bruce once said which is that he can be a super nice guy if you deal with him one on one and there is no business involved or if you have his back.  But if he sees you as a threat or there is a business element to things -- he's ruthless and not the nicest dude to deal with. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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22 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I respect, not necessarily agree with, all of your points.  This one, though, has some caveats.  If it's slander, then it's slander, and HIPAA/contracts can have exceptions for this.  I'm technically a medical professional, and if someone goes out and says that I performed malpractice, then I *can* defend myself.

Not sure of this situation, but it's not black and white.


This though is why the team have asked the NFL to investigate how the team handled Williams medical situation I imagine. Trying to defend their conduct via a 3rd party investigation. 
 

I don’t think it’s going to solve the situation but it’s their attempt to try to get their side out there.

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45 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Dan can be very unpredictable.  He's also very insulated.  You never know, he might have an eye-opening moment somewhere along the way and change his mind.

 

The massive issue is Dan ONLY talks to Bruce.  Since he only talks to Bruce, he only gets one source of information. 

 

Dan needs another friend.  What Dan really needs is to be good friends and have trust with another owner or two who know how to run a team.  Then even if they don't openly advise him, he can try and mimic what they do.  And if he had questions about Bruce, he had somewhere to turn.  

 

So what you're saying is Bruce studied at the Ernie Grunfield School of Sport Management? Damn, Ernie's fired and he's still hurting us somehow. 

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2 hours ago, megared said:

 

The NFL isn't set up like a normal workplace.  He couldn't go to an outside specialist, without the team's approval without the chance of being cut. 

 

Even the review the Redskins called, are they doing it because they really want to know, or to save face?  I mean they've known more about this than the general public for a long time...why now?  It's in response to Trent talking to the media.  So confounding why they didn't trade him, to avoid this scenario.

 

I call BS.  Any player can get a second opinion.  Link an article, rules, etc. to prove otherwise.  

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19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

According to many, Dan is trying to mimic Jerry Jones....

 

Wish he decided to go the Robert Kraft way...

But he's NOT mimicking Jerry Jones.  Jerry owns the fact that he's the GM.  He is out there and talks to the media constantly.  He takes the criticism when warranted, and the credit.  He's front and center.  He is the decider in chief.  He still has the title of Owner, President and General Manager.  (I just looked i up on the Cowboys website.)

 

His son Stephen is the COO and a million other title, his daughter is the Chief Brand Officer, and his other son Jerry Jr. is Chief Sales and Marketing officer.

 

Stephen has gotten a lot of credit for curbing some of his father's more stupid ideas, and managing the roster.

 

But Jerry is in charge.  In every way.  Who was talking about Zek's contract holdout?  Jerry.  Not Stephen, not Garrett. Jerry.

 

Jerry CRAVES the spotlight.  

 

Dan used to crave the spotlight.  It's hard to remember early Dan.  But 1999-2001 Dan was out there.  And he was blasted with bazookas from every media outfit for everything he did.  (Rightfully so in some cases, piling on in others.)

 

And over the years, he has just withdrawn more and more because he doesn't like to get publicly criticized. I actually remember an interview, I think during the Gibbs years, where a reporter asked for an interview and Dan said, "why, you're just going to blast me."  

 

And Robert Kraft and the whole Patriot Way is almost impossible to replicate.  They have a once-in-a-generation coach and a once-in-a-generation QB at the same time.  Kraft doesn't actually have to do a hell of a lot except listen to Bill, pay Tom, and get rub n' tugs.  (I'm minimizing Kraft's importance to let other's do their jobs for emphasis.  I get that he could possibly screw it all up if he wanted to, and he's smart enough not to.)

 

I'd bet good money that if you parachuted BB and TB14 into Washington, gave Bill the kind of power he has in New England, the 'Skins would win 12 games next year.  Even with Dan.  

 

Hell, I would bet good money that if on the day after the draft, you took the entire coaching staff of NE and magically flipped it with the coaching staff in DC, and left every single player exactly the same, and let Bill do whatever he wanted (which is what he does in NE, for the most part), the 'Skins would absolutely not be 1-7 right now.  And coming back to this thread, I doubt that the Trent Williams situation plays out anywhere near the same way. 

 

Trent: I don't want to be here. Contract this, medical that.  

Bill: Ok, enjoy Miami.  BOOM.  Done.  

 

The Patriots are impossible to replicate.  I wouldn't honestly mind if they replicated Dallas. Let Dan be Dan.  Let him be aggressive, spend money, etc.  Let Kyle Smith and Doug advise him.  Would it be a recipe for success?  Probably not.  But it would be better than this, and a hell of a lot more entertaining.  

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37 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I respect, not necessarily agree with, all of your points.  This one, though, has some caveats.  If it's slander, then it's slander, and HIPAA/contracts can have exceptions for this.  I'm technically a medical professional, and if someone goes out and says that I performed malpractice, then I *can* defend myself.

Not sure of this situation, but it's not black and white.

That's fair.  If it's slander, and what Trent is saying is slander, then fine.  However, that's a mighty fine line to walk, and the safest bet is not to go down that road until you have a lock-solid case.  Because, at least to my understanding, if you come out and say somebody is slandering you, and Trent takes offense, this whole thing ends up in court, and that really is the worst case scenario.  

 

At least that's my understanding...

 

And as a note, when you do your own marketing, I wouldn't put "technically a medical professional" on your marketing material. :P 

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51 minutes ago, SkinFanInMinn said:

Didn't we have a Bruce v. Vinny thread at one point?  Might be interesting to readress this.  With Vinny we were just a joke on the field.  With Bruce, we're a joke on and off the field.  (I'm not arguing for Vinny to come back in case anyone tries to claim I'm saying that.)

 

that depends on what you mean by joke off the field.  Our coach hiring practices weren't great during that era and we signed expensive guys who never amounted to anything, and we traded picks for people who never did anything

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You know what's lost in all of this?

 

We all pretty much know that the failing of the physical was LIKELY by design where he knows he had pain, but only reported it due to the situation (this is pure conjecture).

 

But him failing the physical due to pain could also hurt his trade value moving forward, especially if he doesn't play this season.

 

Bruce continues to gift us with greatness.

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1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

I've never believed that was actually true.  Snyder knows and has always known what's going on, what's being said, etc, IMO.  A zebra doesnt change its stripes. 

 

He doesn't show up at a half empty FedEx and look at Bruce going "you told me everything was fine!"

After firing Grundfeld, Ted said Ernie was the only person he ever talked to about baseball matters.  Now he talks to more people.

 

Ted's smarter than Dan, most likely.  And operates a damn fine hockey team. Which has been competitve for 15 years and won a Stanley Cup.  And STILL only got Ernie's counsel on his floundering basketball team. Which is kindof dense.  Especially since basketball people had tattooed "fool" on Ernie's head for years.  

 

Sure, Dan sees what's going on.  But I doubt he reads any articles or listens to any coverage of his team, and the person he talks to for counsel is Bruce. 

 

Who says:

 

1. Injuries.

2. The coach is an idiot. (Left unsaid, "I didn't consider any other coaches, I hired him as soon as he was available.")

3. We were 6-3 with Alex Smith, who I traded for.  

4. Did I mention the injuries? (PS: This is one of the reasons I was so pissed at Jay for constantly using it as an excuse.  it wasn't just an excuse for his own personal mediocrity, but for Bruce as well.)

5. When we fix the coach, get Alex back, and stay healthy, we'll win, and they'll all come back. Stay the course.  We're close.  Don't worry.  It's not as bad as it seems. 

 

If you listen to only one source, and that's what the source is telling you, and there is just enough of a shred of evidence of truth in it, you will believe it. If you believe the source.

 

The key is trying to get Dan to not believe the source.  When that happens, then things can change.  Until that happens. things won't change. 

 

It's that simple.  

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19 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

I call BS.  Any player can get a second opinion.  Link an article, rules, etc. to prove otherwise.  

 

Quote

But players face certain ugly realities. Some teams are not welcoming of second opinions, or happy about their obligation to pay for them under the CBA, or at the prospect of yielding control, according to several player agents.

 

Quote

Not all players feel secure enough to challenge club authority by requesting outside advice, much less following it. Former defensive back Fred Smoot, who retired in 2009 after nine seasons, said he never sought a second opinion and that players can feel self-conscious on the subject. “It’s an uncomfortable position to be in because it looks like you might not have a lot of faith in the training and medical staff,” he said. “It was one of those unspoken things, never really talked about. People just knew not to do it.

 

https://washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/nfl-medical-standards-practices-are-different-than-almost-anywhere-else/2013/03/16/b8c170bc-8be8-11e2-9f54-f3fdd70acad2_story.html

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29 minutes ago, MartinC said:


This though is why the team have asked the NFL to investigate how the team handled Williams medical situation I imagine. Trying to defend their conduct via a 3rd party investigation. 
 

I don’t think it’s going to solve the situation but it’s their attempt to try to get their side out there.

At the very least they can build a case for liable which will include a review by a 3rd party, and that third party I believe is agreed to by the NFLPA.

 

It's about the only savoy move they've made in this whole debacle.  

 

If the third party comes out and says they did everything right, then Trent really, truly looks like a fool for blaming the organization, and there might be a case for liable.  Though I don't think the team should pursue that in the courts in any event because it just makes you look petty.  However, you can hold it up and defend your medical staff and organization to other players and future hires, an that is important.  

30 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

So what you're saying is Bruce studied at the Ernie Grunfield School of Sport Management? Damn, Ernie's fired and he's still hurting us somehow. 

I just mentioned this in a previous post, before I saw your post.

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11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Sure, Dan sees what's going on.  But I doubt he reads any articles or listens to any coverage of his team, and the person he talks to for counsel is Bruce. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Also, the 'Skins had ample opportunities to do something with Trent from April until October 29th which would have been beneficial, and they signed Penn, who has played pretty well at LT.  They could have done that earlier, and they had plenty of time to get assets for Trent.

 

Agreed, I blame the FO equally for this **** situation, which is why I said I honestly can't choose sides. Both parties couldn't have handled this any worse (in terms of what's best for the franchise). There have been far too many issues with Trent's side for me to give him the benefit of the doubt... and now with the helmet issue, it's all games. TW is a joke, the FO is a bigger joke, I truly despise them both.

 

I've said it before, it kills me to say this about TW, but his play here really screwed us. I believe it was much more selflishly motivated than he's leading on.

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1 minute ago, CTskin said:

I've said it before, it kills me to say this about TW, but his play here really screwed us. 

 

No it didn't.  What effect does Trent being here have on how this season played out?  Little to nothing.  Instead of this situation playing out the way it did, we'd be talking about trading him at this point anyways, because we're 1-7..and of course it would've never a been on the FO's radar (much like Kerrigan, or anyone else worth anything on this team).

 

He could've completely tanked his value to franchise if he came out and mentioned that it was cancer, at any point in time earlier.  He could've turned the tide of public sentiment, and royally screwed the franchise.  But he didn't.  It was only after the trade deadline passed, did he say anything.  

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If this was solely about the medical staff, didn’t Bruce offer to fire them and TW said no?

 

Honestly, I think this is entirely about the contract and he is using the cyst/tumor as his justification to tar anyone within reach. He is right when he said he is partially responsible for Jays firing. 

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5 minutes ago, megared said:

 

No it didn't.  What effect does Trent being here have on how this season played out?  Little to nothing.  Instead of this situation playing out the way it did, we'd be talking about trading him at this point anyways, because we're 1-7..and of course it would've never a been on the FO's radar (much like Kerrigan, or anyone else worth anything on this team).

 

He could've completely tanked his value to franchise if he came out and mentioned that it was cancer, at any point in time earlier.  He could've turned the tide of public sentiment, and royally screwed the franchise.  But he didn't.  It was only after the trade deadline passed, did he say anything.  

He’d have been screwing himself had he tanked his trade value. 

 

Bruce should allow Trents agent to explore trade opportunities based on 1 & 2 year contracts and once thisvshakes out, they can present them to Bruce

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9 minutes ago, sempre_victrix said:

He’d have been screwing himself had he tanked his trade value. 

 

Bruce should allow Trents agent to explore trade opportunities based on 1 & 2 year contracts and once thisvshakes out, they can present them to Bruce

 

No, he would've been rid of this situation had he forced their hand and leaked this earlier.  And even if he's not thrilled with his current contract, he wouldn't be dealing with punitive punishments from an employer he no longer wants anything to do with.  

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So yesterday I was thinking an extension for Trent was around the corner.

 

Now, who knows. I mean he's made some accusations that now need to be backed up. He's going to look bad if they are picked apart.

 

Can he be sanctioned/suspended for this kind of thing, I don't know, like conduct detrimental to the team. Maybe that happens and he sits out the remainder of the season.

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13 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

So yesterday I was thinking an extension for Trent was around the corner.

 

The only way that'd happen, at this point is if Dan canned Bruce.  So I guess, as long as Trent is on the roster...there's a chance he could side with the player over management. 

 

However I think that'd have major ramifications on our next hire, especially after the RG3 stuff.   

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44 minutes ago, megared said:

 

 

Ok, so you proved my point.  They can get a second opinion, it's not against the CBA, rules, etc.  And IIRC there was an article when this whole debacle started where a source said that the team told him to see a specialist (or get a 2nd opinion) if he was concerned. 

 

The medical staff are not specialists in the field of oncology or dermatology, and with the recent information we just found out about (that it was a rare form of cancer), nobody should expect team doctors to diagnose what appeared to be a harmless cyst as a rare form of cancer.

 

There is also the reports that he failed to show up for his appointments with the team doctor over the years.  At some point TW needs to be held accountable for his own health and make the best decision for his well being.  Zero reason to not seek out a specialist for a second opinion if he was that concerned.  And the Redskins requesting a review of medical records, etc. tells me that they most likely have documentation to clear the medical staff of any wrong doing.

18 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

So yesterday I was thinking an extension for Trent was around the corner.

 

Now, who knows. I mean he's made some accusations that now need to be backed up. He's going to look bad if they are picked apart.

 

Can he be sanctioned/suspended for this kind of thing, I don't know, like conduct detrimental to the team. Maybe that happens and he sits out the remainder of the season.

 

I dunno, but if it's proven that his accusations were false, I hope there is some way to take away the remaining salary along with the year accrual so he still has 2 years remaining on his contract.  

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41 minutes ago, megared said:

 

No it didn't.  What effect does Trent being here have on how this season played out?  Little to nothing.  Instead of this situation playing out the way it did, we'd be talking about trading him at this point anyways, because we're 1-7..and of course it would've never a been on the FO's radar (much like Kerrigan, or anyone else worth anything on this team).

 

He could've completely tanked his value to franchise if he came out and mentioned that it was cancer, at any point in time earlier.  He could've turned the tide of public sentiment, and royally screwed the franchise.  But he didn't.  It was only after the trade deadline passed, did he say anything.  

 

When I said "his play" I was referring to his chess move here, not his actual game play. It screwed us in that he announced this right after the draft and FA, which gave us little option to have a valid replacement lined up. 

 

Sorry, not following that second statement. Again, my stance is that both TW and the FO are at fault, both of them handled this poorly which results in a ****tier future for this franchise.

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2 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

So you think that when a player farts in the locker room Bruce tells him about it?

And stadium being empty is because Redskins fans wants top dollars....

 

And you think the guy that used to have a direct line to players just cut that out of his system.  The guy that was overly involved.  He's a new man now?  If Bruce doesnt tell him anything he is just doesnt know it?

 

Deferring to Bruce to handle and being oblivious arent the same thing.

Edited by justice98

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4 hours ago, megared said:

 

The NFL isn't set up like a normal workplace.  He couldn't go to an outside specialist, without the team's approval without the chance of being cut. 

 

Even the review the Redskins called, are they doing it because they really want to know, or to save face?  I mean they've known more about this than the general public for a long time...why now?  It's in response to Trent talking to the media.  So confounding why they didn't trade him, to avoid this scenario.

 

This is a misrepresentation of the rules. Players only have to ensure the 2nd opinion is from a licensed doctor. It must be  licensed practicing physician that is an expert in the medical area the 2nd opinion is being sought. 

 

The rest of that is that the team cannot stop players from getting a 2nd opinion, only reject the doctor and force them to get another one but only if the doctor is not properly licensed. Further, the team must pay for the 2nd opinion. They can even get a 3rd opinion but that is on the players dime. 

 

So again, yes if the player gets a 2nd opinion without telling the team at all there are potential consequences. But the player does not need permission at all. In fact the team must accommodate the player including paying for the 2nd opinion and that means all costs including transportation.  

 

I am all team Trent here and do not blame him for holding out regardless of the medical issues, but there is zero excuse not to get a second opinion. Anyway, I especially have a hard time believing a player who has been around as long as Trent was too intimidated to get a 2nd. If nothing else his agent and inner circle should be driving that process. Maybe rookies and young players feel tat way but a 9 yr veteran? Sorry, not buying it. The stuff from Smoot rings as him running at the mouth - something he actually did well - too bad he didn't play as well as he talked. 

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