bearrock Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 59 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: The democrats are, without a doubt, not interested in compromise. Trump does want compromise. Compromising with president who shuts down the government in pursuit of a legislative agenda is a highway to imperial presidency. All compromises and discussions can be on the table once the government is reopened. Otherwise, the country can expect a shut down every time a president doesn't get his or her way on any issue. There's a healthcare crisis, government is shut down until Congress passes medicare for all. There's a deficit crisis, government is shut down until we raise taxes. There's a mass shooting crisis, the government is shut down until the 2nd amendment is repealed. There can be no compromise during a shutdown. It's the same reason why we don't negotiate with terrorists. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 The most obvious thing at this point is that the dumb wall is a big ****ing loser with most of the public. Unlike the other shutdowns, people are going to remember this one I think. Elect a clown, expect a circus. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skintime Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, No Excuses said: The most obvious thing at this point is that the dumb wall is a big ****ing loser with most of the public. Unlike the other shutdowns, people are going to remember this one I think. Elect a clown, expect a circus. This is what happens when you let Rush and Coulter run the government. trump will not be forgiven if he is around to vote for in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, bearrock said: Compromising with president who shuts down the government in pursuit of a legislative agenda is a highway to imperial presidency. Yea, I’m not taking issue with their decision not to negotiate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: The democrats are, without a doubt, not interested in compromise. Trump does want compromise. Which is why the Dems floated giving $5 billion for border security yesterday, just not for a physical wall. As Chuck Todd said yesterday, Trump doesn’t know how to declare victory while he does know how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There are plenty of outs for Trump but he wants a literal wall and nothing else. It has nothing to do with security and everything to do with him being a moron with an ego. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) At this point I don't even think Trump cares about the wall, (as policy and/or actual border security, he likely never did in the first place), it was just something he repeated during his campaign and now feels he has to build (or at least make the case he is trying to build) to save face. Trump seems to have a mental block when it comes to any kind of data that counters whatever opinion he has on any given issue. He continually comes out and makes these grandiose statements, and when studies prove him to be wrong he will say "well, I just don't believe it because.....no one knows what I do" or a similar anecdote that eludes to how intelligent he is about everything. With all the wall discussion that has gone on in the past 6 months there is no way a logical thinking person can still believe it would solve the issue(s) of border security. Edited January 24, 2019 by NoCalMike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, bearrock said: It's the same reason why we don't negotiate with terrorists. Don't be silly. We negotiate with neocons all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Yea, I’m not taking issue with their decision not to negotiate. Except the Dems did negotiate and are negotiating. At one point, they offered 25 billion Trump for the wall in return for DACA. The President turned it down. Now, they are offering him the 5B he wants for border security (just not the wall.) They've come back with...? The biggest problem that the Republicans have in negotiations is that they keep renigging on their deals. Remember when Collins said she would vote to screw the ACA because the Republicans promised to at some future point negotiate the issue she cared about? How do you negotiate with someone who breaks every promise and lies even to their own? Edited January 24, 2019 by Burgold 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Speaking of negotiations...How are the negotiations with Mexico going vis a vis the “check for the wall”? Haven’t heard much on that lately. #fartofthedeal Edited January 24, 2019 by TryTheBeal! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Here is what I don’t get. On trumps side, he wants a wall. Let’s agree it’s terrible, ineffective, ect. But he really wants it. I can understand shutting down the government to get what you want. Justify is a different question, but i can see the reasoning. on the democratic side though the answer is a flat no to any money for a wall. And trump is desperate. He really wants that wall. I find it hard to believe that there is nothing on the democratic side that isn’t worth pissing away 5 billion dollars on a wall that can be thrown out the minute Trump gets tossed out of office. I mean, DACA, Gun Control, Minimum wage. I think the dems are playing the petty game with trump instead of getting what the want. It makes no since to me. So if someone would explain to me why they aren’t using the huge amount of leverage they have to get some of the policies they want in exchange for 5 billion dollars I would appreciate it Its not caving or giving into an imperial president if you get more than you give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 How can the Senate vote to extend a shutdown that is unpopular with voters? They won't even open the government to negotiate. This is called, working on legislstion and it happens all the time on various legislation. They should have overriden Trump from Day 1. They still won't override Trump kn Day 33. Everyone acts like 800k is a small number, but there are Feds in other agencies watching this, and families and friends ("I have a brother or friend in the TSA"), government contractors and businesses. And they are talking about pushing this until March or April? It will if you "negotiate" at this glacial pace. Trump walksd out of his last negotiation. And on a wall policy unpopular to boot. Trump has to know he is not getting a wall. And if he wants a wall he needs a big deal. And the right has been blocking a big desl for decades with their "amnesty" BS. Is rhe GOP afraid that Trump is going to go back to his Democratic roots? This makes no sense and even conservatives are starting to say, "look at that crashinf polling." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Fergasun said: How can the Senate vote to extend a shutdown that is unpopular with voters? Because the Senate represents land more than people. And land has a GOP lean. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Here is what I don’t get. On trumps side, he wants a wall. Let’s agree it’s terrible, ineffective, ect. But he really wants it. I can understand shutting down the government to get what you want. Justify is a different question, but i can see the reasoning. on the democratic side though the answer is a flat no to any money for a wall. And trump is desperate. He really wants that wall. I find it hard to believe that there is nothing on the democratic side that isn’t worth pissing away 5 billion dollars on a wall that can be thrown out the minute Trump gets tossed out of office. I mean, DACA, Gun Control, Minimum wage. I think the dems are playing the petty game with trump instead of getting what the want. It makes no since to me. So if someone would explain to me why they aren’t using the huge amount of leverage they have to get some of the policies they want in exchange for 5 billion dollars I would appreciate it Its not caving or giving into an imperial president if you get more than you give. Primarily, because if you give Trump what he wants because he shut down the government, you are showing Trump that he can get anything he wants by shutting down the government. This is exactly the same principal for why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Second, and less important, Trump has already rejected a bunch of proposals for (much more) wall funding in exchange for Democrat priorities. He doesn't negotiate in good faith and the "deal" he just offered was pretty much everything Trump wants in exchange for almost nothing. https://www.wsj.com/articles/shutdown-has-been-a-year-in-the-making-11547498818 It's behind a paywall, here is the first example: Quote Trump-Schumer negotiations: In January 2018, Mr. Trump met with Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D., N.Y.) for 90 minutes, with then-chief of staff John Kelly the only White House aide present. Mr. Schumer offered the president $25 billion over an unspecified period to be used for a border wall, paired with a path to citizenship for the young immigrants. Mr. Trump in September 2017 had ended an Obama-era program, known as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, that allowed those immigrants to work and shielded them from deportation. An appeals court in November rejected Mr. Trump’s move to end the program, which is expected to be reviewed by the Supreme Court. Mr. Kelly later called Mr. Schumer, saying that the White House considered the deal too liberal and that it didn’t do enough to end the system that prioritizes immigrants who already have family ties in the U.S. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skintime Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Here is what I don’t get. On trumps side, he wants a wall. Let’s agree it’s terrible, ineffective, ect. But he really wants it. I can understand shutting down the government to get what you want. Justify is a different question, but i can see the reasoning. on the democratic side though the answer is a flat no to any money for a wall. And trump is desperate. He really wants that wall. I find it hard to believe that there is nothing on the democratic side that isn’t worth pissing away 5 billion dollars on a wall that can be thrown out the minute Trump gets tossed out of office. I mean, DACA, Gun Control, Minimum wage. I think the dems are playing the petty game with trump instead of getting what the want. It makes no since to me. So if someone would explain to me why they aren’t using the huge amount of leverage they have to get some of the policies they want in exchange for 5 billion dollars I would appreciate it Its not caving or giving into an imperial president if you get more than you give. If he wanted the wall in reality than as I said before he needed to do it when the GOP controlled ALL parts of the government. Now it's just for show and Rush. He picked the wrong thing to fight about in the midterms and now. Finally, he will be burned for it, as he needs to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Here is what I don’t get. On trumps side, he wants a wall. Let’s agree it’s terrible, ineffective, ect. But he really wants it. I can understand shutting down the government to get what you want. Justify is a different question, but i can see the reasoning. Stop here. Thats not how the government works. Trump doesn't get what he wants. The American people get what they want. The only way the American people can tell the sitting president that what he is doing is not ok with them is to vote people into the government that know what it is they want and share that vision. We did that, and his response what to shut down the entire system until we break or he gets his demands. Imagine if, after Trump was elected, Obama declared martial law until congress came up with a way to stop Trump from taking power. Its the same concept. You cannot accept that period. For that reason alone it should do no further. But there are multiple other reasons that the others have expressed as well. Edited January 24, 2019 by Llevron 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 To add to my above post, a very important third reason. Trump has idiotically painted himself into a corner. The polling is very clearly against him, and only about 1/3 of people think he isnt to blame. That is his hardcore MAGA base. Even people that voted for him, but think the shutdown over a wall is stupid, are turning on him. His disapproval rating is at an all-time high right now. So Pelosi has him in a situation where, if he continues the shutdown, everyone but his hardcore base will turn on him and the rest of the GOP. If he folds, his hardcore base will turn on him and the GOP. Trump is in a terrible lose-lose situation here. Why would Pelosi let him out of the whole he dug himself by conjuring up a fake crisis? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) If only the Democrats would compromise. Edited January 24, 2019 by The Evil Genius 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 ****ing dumbasses 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Llevron said: Stop here. Thats not how the government works. Trump doesn't get what he wants. The American people get what they want. They elected him to lead... also, you are missing the point. Let’s assume you are right with the test of your post. Your telling me there is nothing the dems want that’s worth more than a wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 @CousinsCowgirl84 First of all the budgets for all the agencies, including DHS were negotiated by Congress. Trump rejected these budgets and IMHO regardless of how the parties felt, they should have passed the negotiated bills and override the veto out of selfish legislative perrorgative like the Founders envisioned. Principally these negotiations between the legislative branches and WH happen all then time. I know the GOP legislative shutdown Obama -- which is different. This is a President shutting down his own Executive Agencies. Over legislstion which is not even the Executives primary function. I do believe Clinton shutdown the government, but I see why it ended when it did --- screwing Feds out of 2 paychecks, creating that level of economic fear is ridiculous. We live in a representative Democracy. The People gave power back to the Democratic House. It wasn't to build a wall. GOP had 2 years to "build the wall". How would the GOP or right act if Obama shut down the government over DACA, gun control and minimum wage? The GOP Senate is shredding the very checks and balances put in place by the constititional.democracy. That they haven't veto overriden this shutdown is pathetic. The negotiations should be between Pelosi and McConnell over what they can pass in numbers to override a veto. Not how Pelosi can build the Trump wall. I said this many pages ago. Power between Congress and the President is like a dinner table. It's fair to say elections are fights to get a seat at the table. That seat is the makeup of the House (solid Dem), Senate (weak GOP) and WH (Trump). Just like kids expect their parents to run a responsible household, America expects the principles to act responsibly. Again, legislative give and take with the WH is a part of life. This is 2020 politics. I have paid close attention to W. Bush, Obama and now Trump. When the other party gained power, both Obama (to the extent allowed) and Bush moderated, understanding they lost power to drive government exactly the way they wished to. When faced with that same prospect, Trump decided to shut it down. You do realize the budget process begins in February and Trumps budget didn't include 5.7B for a wall, and the budget goes through committees and all sorts of steps, right? This is Trump rejected a budget built on his own request, following an election in which he wants power. And his counter-proposal was laughable and he doesn't want to negotiate, and he didn't wven follow through with a deal with McConnell because of Rush/Coulter. So why should gov't grind to a halt over fairly typical legislative negotiations? Any politcal point or distinction has been made about the wall, Dems weak on the border, etc. Etc. Whatever election talking points have been made. Unfortunately for Trump and the GOP, most Americans view the shutdown as the larger crisis. Is anything really being conceded legislatively to open the government and continue.negotiations? There was no need to create a "shutdown crisis" if you really believe there is a "border crisis". I am not even going to go into the history behind Comprehensive Immigration Reform and how the right will always fly the "amnesty" card. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Edited January 24, 2019 by Cooked Crack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Air Traffic Controllers, Pilots, Flight Attendants Detail Serious Safety Concerns Due to Shutdown Washington, D.C. — On Day 33 of the government shutdown, National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA) President Paul Rinaldi, Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) President Joe DePete, and Association of Flight Attendants-CWA (AFA) President Sara Nelson released the following statement: “We have a growing concern for the safety and security of our members, our airlines, and the traveling public due to the government shutdown. This is already the longest government shutdown in the history of the United States and there is no end in sight. In our risk averse industry, we cannot even calculate the level of risk currently at play, nor predict the point at which the entire system will break. It is unprecedented. “Due to the shutdown, air traffic controllers, transportation security officers, safety inspectors, air marshals, federal law enforcement officers, FBI agents, and many other critical workers have been working without pay for over a month. Staffing in our air traffic control facilities is already at a 30-year low and controllers are only able to maintain the system’s efficiency and capacity by working overtime, including 10-hour days and 6-day workweeks at many of our nation’s busiest facilities. Due to the shutdown, the FAA has frozen hiring and shuttered its training academy, so there is no plan in effect to fill the FAA’s critical staffing need. Even if the FAA were hiring, it takes two to four years to become fully facility certified and achieve Certified Professional Controller (CPC) status. Almost 20% of CPCs are eligible to retire today. There are no options to keep these professionals at work without a paycheck when they can no longer afford to support their families. When they elect to retire, the National Airspace System (NAS) will be crippled. Click on the link for the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: To add to my above post, a very important third reason. Trump has idiotically painted himself into a corner. The polling is very clearly against him, and only about 1/3 of people think he isnt to blame. That is his hardcore MAGA base. Even people that voted for him, but think the shutdown over a wall is stupid, are turning on him. His disapproval rating is at an all-time high right now. So Pelosi has him in a situation where, if he continues the shutdown, everyone but his hardcore base will turn on him and the rest of the GOP. If he folds, his hardcore base will turn on him and the GOP. Trump is in a terrible lose-lose situation here. Why would Pelosi let him out of the whole he dug himself by conjuring up a fake crisis? You are 100 percent correct, which is why pelosi should use her maximum leverage to get maximum concessions on broad ranging legislation to enact policies her side supports. I don’t really think the political game your advocating hurts the president. His 36 percent isn’t going to leave over “obstructionist Democrats and fake news media” and the remaining 64 percent already know what he is about.... him caving on DACA in return for a wall probably hurts him more that reopening the government for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: They elected him to lead... also, you are missing the point. Let’s assume you are right with the test of your post. Your telling me there is nothing the dems want that’s worth more than a wall? He was elected to lead in 2016. They elected many many first time democratic members of the house AND senate to stop him in 2018. The system was designed that way for a reason. And, obviously, no. There is nothing the Dems are willing to give up to let trump have his way for no reason other than "he really wants it". Not to be rude and confrontational here (seriously) but I dont think you get the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Llevron said: And, obviously, no. There is nothing the Dems are willing to give up to let trump have his way Not give up, get in return. Their are a lot of policy changes that would do a lot of good. More good than the harm of 5 billion for a partial wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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