BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 http://cbsloc.al/2F6oPog SI’s Andy Benoit basically called this all months ago almost to a tee. It’s really a scheme issue I’m just gonna hold out hope that we get something because we can be a SB team with just an average passing attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 10 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Re: the cap space debate. Dead cap in the amount of $13.5 million going into his 4th year should be accounted for, though. Can’t ignore that if we’re just posting his three year numbers like that’s all he’s counting against the cap. If we move on after 2020 (extremely likely), we lost that cap space and there’s no getting it back. I just looked at that part, year 4, which initially escaped me. So wow you are tied into him for 4 years unless you swallow cap and even in the 4th year its a good cap hit. I saw some criticism of the extension especially from Laconfora at the time. I was ok with it in theory because I didn't love to be in another situation where you are playing chicken in contract talks with your starting QB. But to go that deep in guaranteed money with a mid 30s QB is intense. I posted an article saying Cleveland wasn't willing to make that type of commitment in a contract to him. It makes me wonder a little more about something I saw i think it was via Riggo's Rag or maybe elsewhere that there is a clause in the contract that can get them out in this off season but they'd still have to swallow the cap hit for 2019 but it would get them out of the rest. If so and lets say he doesn't play that hot it might not be that far fetched. Dallas had a year where they swalllowed Romo's contract when they played a rookie QB. https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/01/browns_offered_chiefs_one_of_t.html The Browns' first two second-rounders are prime real estate in this deep draft: The Browns own the No. 33 and No. 35 picks. The team also has the Eagles' pick, which will be either No. 63 or 64 depending on if they win the Super Bowl on Sunday. The Redskins, on the other hand, gave up a third-rounder, No. 13 in that round, and starting cornerback Kendall Fuller to land one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. But Washington really sealed the deal -- which can't be consummated until the league year begins March 14 -- by agreeing to sign Smith to a four-year extension worth $94 million, including $71 million guaranteed. That works out to about $23.5 million a year, which is the going rate for a quarterback of his caliber. But the Browns weren't ready to do that kind of a deal https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/1/31/16956998/report-browns-offered-multiple-picks-including-2nd-rounder-for-alex-smith On Wednesday, a few more details came out regarding what the Cleveland Browns were offering for QB Alex Smith. According to Mary Kay Cabot of the Plain Dealer, the team was willing to part ways with either No. 33 or No. 35, “but weren’t prepared to sign him to the blockbuster extension that the Redskins did.” Benjamin Albright talked with Nathan Zegura on Browns Daily and confirmed that Smith “chose” the Redskins because of the long-term deal they were offering. That adds some confirmation to my belief that the Chiefs organization were partially looking to do right by Smith by allowing him to have some input on where he was traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Reid essentially did McNabb a favor as well, that doesn't mean he did us a favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 11 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Re: the cap space debate. You can’t ignore that dead cap money, because it’s a hindrance and was lost due to Alex’s guaranteed portion of his contract. The dead cap money will become especially important because it will be near to the time where players like Allen, Payne, and some of the other talented young players will need to be paid if the team wants to keep them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 20 hours ago, wit33 said: Alex’s eyes and feet don’t appear to be in sync leading to inaccuracies. Any QBs or coaches out there that can expound upon this or debunk? Alex is not a pocket passer. In KC last year he did well because his 1st option was winning in the early part of the year. Andy had two great mismatches in Hill and Kelce. Once Kelce went out with a concussion in the playoffs vs the Titans Tennessee doubled Hill and that was a wrap. The Titans overcame a 21 - 3 deficit to win the game because Alex and the offense was paralyzed while Tennessee seized momentum. With the Redskins Alex doesn't have even one option that can win right off the bat. Reed is the best matchup but he's being bracketed and his gains are minimal; especially after the catch. Neither Richardson nor Doctson are fast or dominant enough to win off the LOS. So, Alex gets his first read and since there is no obvious winner or the player isn't wide open he holds the ball and begins to panic (happy feet, looking to escape the pocket, etc). He usually misses #2 and #3 when his eyes check the rush. So all that's left is the safe checkdown or scramble. Jay just needs to get the best 11 on the field. And he is trying to do that with some two tight end sets. I would NEVER, EVER, EEEEVVVER, count on Reed or Davis to block anybody near the tacklebox. I would flex them out because they don't want to block and will always give a weak effort. They're just big receivers. I would have CT on the field in the slot until Crowder comes back. My five skills players (Alex at QB) on offense for this Sunday (considering injury status) would be AP, CT, Reed, Floyd, and Doctson. I would rotate Davis to spell Reed, P-Rich to spell Doctson, Perriman for Floyd, and maybe Mo to give CT a breather. I would spread everyone out and for the running game I'd have 6 in the box. Account for the 6th player with Alex (who will have to run it if the read is there) and then you have 5v5 in the run game with AP running behind them. I would have a few shot plays down the field off play action to back off the DB's but most of the passes would be screens, mesh concepts, and RPO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 14 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Re: the cap space debate. Dead cap in the amount of $13.5 million going into his 4th year should be accounted for, though. Can’t ignore that if we’re just posting his three year numbers like that’s all he’s counting against the cap. If we move on after 2020 (extremely likely), we lost that cap space and there’s no getting it back. Personal perspectice is a critical and most important piece when discussing nuance and probabilities of what a team might do 3 or 4 years down the line. Not surprised to learn we fall on opposite lines in regards to Smith and team’s commitment to him financially lol I appreciate the information backend outs and ramifications of doing so financially for team. Your opinion is the Skins will get out after year 3 and incur a $13.5mil hit in dead cap. This is what a glut of your argument rests on, correct? If team were to do this (I don’t think they will, but I value Alex at his pay rate) it would appear on the 4th year, not 3rd year, as that calendar season will have already been played. In essence, if Alex gets cut after year 3, his dead cap hit will be on year 4 (2021). So total money is spread over the 4 years, not 3 years. Again, I don’t think this will happen as Alex will be entering his age 37 season. The new norm is for franchise QBs and others (back ups and journeymen) to continue playing into their 37 and 38 aged seasons, especially those with pedigree of Alex (former #1 pick). 73.7mil over 4 years = $18.4mil average Your opinion also also eliminates potential forward thinking from team. If Skins cut Alex or he retires after the 4th year and have a 2nd year guy who benefitted from sitting a year and learning from Smith and is being paid a rookie salary of 1-4 million, is that not a good plan? —1-4mil (rookie salary) +13.7 (dead cap, if cut after 2020 season) would put Skins at roughly 6-8% of the cap, or thereabouts. 15-18mil for the QB position in year 2021. —1-4mil (rookie salary) +6.7 (dead cap, if cut after 2121 season) would put Skins at roughly 4-6% of the cap, or thereabouts. $8-10 mil for the QB position in year 2021. The team team also has control of Alex for next five seasons, this represents positive value when building a team. Many variables are in teams favor, this why some players are choosing shorter term deals. Alex took a traditional deal that provided long term security for a lower per year salary. Alex himself states he left a few million on table in a per year sense. *Kirk’s guarantees are spread over 3 years. *Alex’s guarantees are spread over 5 years. Kirk will obviously receive new money in year 4 and 5 in relation to Smiths deal. A team not having control after year 3 is for the teams benefit—- Kirk and reps wanted a shorter term deal to position self to take advantage of new collective bargaining agreement and have the control in relationship with team. Not what a team wants. The traditional Smith deal is what a team prefers, as it provides outs in backend with minimal losses. The team will have leverage to restructure contract in later seasons when guarantees in that year are much lower——-> We agree! Can careless about the Fuller trade when discussing Smiths contract value. For me, it has no meaning to me as it relates to this discussion. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 49 minutes ago, wit33 said: The traditional Smith deal is what a team prefers, as it provides outs in backend with minimal losses. The math only works out for the team if the player is at least playing somewhere near the value of his contract; i.e. performance being slotted either +3 or -3 from where his contract dictates he should be paid for the contract to be fair market value. Alex should be somewhere between the 12th to the 18th rated QB. (And I think I'm being generous for not asking him to be in the top 10 - I expect him to be slightly above average - ranked 15th). Right now it's safe to say that Alex Smith is playing like a QB who should be paid somewhere in the 21st to 26th ranked QB. So, I doubt that the team feels like they are winning on Alex Smith's contract. But! I'm hoping that Jay can scheme it up to get his performance to climb. Then, with the radically improved running game, defense, and special teams no body will care about his contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Kev Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 I've said it before and I'll say it again; NFL contracts are too ****ing confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 Right now, Smith is the ultimate game manager by being asked to make the real safe throws to Reed or CT in the flat. AP is focal point of this offense and Smith isn't being asked to do too much right now as long as they have the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 1 minute ago, SAli457180 said: Right now, Smith is the ultimate game manager by being asked to make the real safe throws to Reed or CT in the flat. AP is focal point of this offense and Smith isn't being asked to do too much right now as long as they have the lead. I’m not sure why one would think that’s exactly what he’s being asked to do. I venture a guess it’s what Alex and AP both showed Jay that has lead the direction of the offense. However I’m certain he’s been asked to do more as a passer, just hasn’t been able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 4 hours ago, ThomasRoane said: The dead cap money will become especially important because it will be near to the time where players like Allen, Payne, and some of the other talented young players will need to be paid if the team wants to keep them. Maybe. But if we do draft a QB of the future in the next couple years then his rookie contract limitations will help offset that dead cap hit much like Wentz does in philly. 4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I’m not sure why one would think that’s exactly what he’s being asked to do. I venture a guess it’s what Alex and AP both showed Jay that has lead the direction of the offense. However I’m certain he’s been asked to do more as a passer, just hasn’t been able to do it. This is always Smith’s game. He was like this in KC with the exception of last year when he basically knew he was playing for a new contract somewhere else. This is not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted November 1, 2018 Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: However I’m certain he’s been asked to do more as a passer, just hasn’t been able to do it. He showed in the GB game that he can make the deep throws, but he couldn't make the simple throws like the one to Sprinkle on the goal line vs Dallas. That's what's so frustrating with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, SAli457180 said: He showed in the GB game that he can make the deep throws, but he couldn't make the simple throws like the one to Sprinkle on the goal line vs Dallas. That's what's so frustrating with him The Richardson play? I mean, I’ll take it but still that was Richardson making a play. His deep stuff has been straight doo doo but thankfully we’ve gotten some PI calls out of it. Going to need more of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 16 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: Dead cap in the amount of $13.5 million going into his 4th year should be accounted for, though. Can’t ignore that if we’re just posting his three year numbers like that’s all he’s counting against the cap. If we move on after 2020 (extremely likely), we lost that cap space and there’s no getting it back. That 13.5m looks incorrect to me. That is a 2/4ths of his 27mil signing bonus I believe, which can't be right as it starts to kick in from year 1, leaving 10.8mil after year 3, being 2/5ths of 27mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: I just looked at that part, year 4, which initially escaped me. So wow you are tied into him for 4 years unless you swallow cap and even in the 4th year its a good cap hit. Dead cap of 10.8m after year 3 isn't that obscene on what is a 5 year 111mil contract. I'd suggest we are tied for 3 years with a very manageable get out at that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 46 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: Dead cap of 10.8m after year 3 isn't that obscene on what is a 5 year 111mil contract. I'd suggest we are tied for 3 years with a very manageable get out at that stage. Lets play with your 10.8 figure even though over the cap has it higher at 13.5. 4th year for a QB for dead money? The fact that its 4 years is a pretty long run for a mid 30s QB in terms of guaranteed money. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/alex-smith-3337/ From over the cap POTENTIAL OUT: 2021, 3 YR, $71,000,000; $13,500,000 DEAD CAP Tandler's (RIP) take on the contract https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/need-know-closer-look-alex-smiths-contract-redskins The details show a deal that has a slightly higher cap hit in 2018 than was on his original Chiefs contract and the numbers rise gradually over the life of the deal, which runs through 2022. Smith got a $27 million signing bonus and his salaries for 2018 ($13 million) and 2019 ($15 million) also are fully guaranteed at signing making the total $55 million (information via Over the Cap, which got data from a report by Albert Breer). But there I another $16 million that is guaranteed for all practical purposes. On the fifth day of the 2019 league year, his 2020 salary of $16 million becomes fully guaranteed. He almost assuredly will get to the point where that money will become guaranteed since the Redskins are not going to cut him after one year having invested $55 million in him. So the total guarantees come to $71 million. His 2021 salary is $19 million and it goes up to $21 million in 2022. There have been reports of some incentives available to Smith but since we have no details we’ll set those aside for now. The cap hits on the contract are as follows: 2018: $18.4 million 2019: $20.0 million 2020: $21.4 million 2021: $24.4 million 2022: $26.4 million The Redskins can realistically move on from Smith after 2020. There would be net cap savings of $13 million in 2021 and $21 million in 2022. The first impression of the deal is that the Redskins did not move on from Kirk Cousins because they didn’t want to guarantee a lot of money to a quarterback. The total practical guarantee of $71 million is second only to Cousins’ $82.5 million. It should be noted that Cousins’ deal runs for three years and Smith’s contract is for five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Lets play with your 10.8 figure even though over the cap has it higher at 13.5. 4th year for a QB for dead money? The fact that its 4 years is a pretty long run for a mid 30s QB in terms of guaranteed money. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/alex-smith-3337/ From over the cap POTENTIAL OUT: 2021, 3 YR, $71,000,000; $13,500,000 DEAD CAP The figure is 10.8, no need to play with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: The figure is 10.8, no need to play with anything. OK, 10.8 dead cap isn't hot for ANY player if they aren't on the roster if it goes down that way. You are so confident in being right -- and i am not saying you aren't -- but for me not to believe overthecap and take your number what is it based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 We could use the post June 1st designation and only take a hit of $6.75M, Who knows what's going to happen after 2020 when the CBA runs out, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lockout in 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: OK, 10.8 dead cap isn't hot for ANY player if they aren't on the roster if it goes down that way. You are so confident in being right -- and i am not saying you aren't -- but for me not to believe overthecap and take your number what is it based on? 10.8 is the remaining 2/5ths of the 27mil SB he got. Can't see how the dead cap is anything other than that at present. And yes, it's not great if that transpires but I don't think it's fundamentally damaging. I guess they could have dropped his SB and added another 6-10 mil onto salary but that isn't feasible short term without stripping other assets from the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said: We could use the post June 1st designation and only take a hit of $6.75M, Who knows what's going to happen after 2020 when the CBA runs out, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lockout in 2021. Agreed on the post June comment, which I believe would be half of 10.8mil instead of half of 13.5mil. Front Office has us in good cap shape heading into 2019 and 2010. Thereafter is an unknown right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: I just looked at that part, year 4, which initially escaped me. So wow you are tied into him for 4 years unless you swallow cap and even in the 4th year its a good cap hit. I saw some criticism of the extension especially from Laconfora at the time..... LOL at the line of your supplied article that read " The Redskins, on the other hand, gave up a third-rounder, No. 13 in that round, and starting cornerback Kendall Fuller to land one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Other than his mother who ever considered Alex Smith one of the best QBs in the NFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: LOL at the line of your supplied article that read " The Redskins, on the other hand, gave up a third-rounder, No. 13 in that round, and starting cornerback Kendall Fuller to land one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Other than his mother who ever considered Alex Smith one of the best QBs in the NFL? I got you. But I didn't post the article for that reason, it was about explaining Cleveland's point of view of not giving a LTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 8 hours ago, ThomasRoane said: ....My five skills players (Alex at QB) on offense for this Sunday (considering injury status) would be AP, CT, Reed, Floyd, and Doctson. I would rotate Davis to spell Reed, P-Rich to spell Doctson, Perriman for Floyd, and maybe Mo to give CT a breather. I would spread everyone out and for the running game I'd have 6 in the box. Account for the 6th player with Alex (who will have to run it if the read is there) and then you have 5v5 in the run game with AP running behind them. I would have a few shot plays down the field off play action to back off the DB's but most of the passes would be screens, mesh concepts, and RPO's. You forgot about Quinn. Last I heard is that he should be a go on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, zskins said: You forgot about Quinn. Last I heard is that he should be a go on Sunday. He hasn't been activated yet. Only Byron Marshall. And @ThomasRoane mentioned Perriman. Well he's been cut week ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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