SWFLSkins Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Wyvern said: I do happen to think that Smith might be a better deep passer than everyone thinks, and maybe the Skins will discover that -- assuming they provide him with more talent. So, time will tell on Smith. .... However, Cousins has already proved he has the long pass, assuming he's got time to throw one without falling backwards in the face of defenders bearing in on him.. Great post, lots of meat.... two thoughts though for me Coaching and Kirk just missing guys wide open down the field or just poorly placed balls. I am curious to see what Jay can do with another QB, especially one with as much experience as Alex Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hangman- C_Hanburger Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 11 hours ago, XtremeFan55 said: Compare Smith to Cousins. Cousins led the league in air yards in 2016. https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/ Looks like polar opposites. No wonder Smith is a ‘safe’ quarterback who doesn’t make mistakes...he throws predominantly short 5 yd passes. Cousins had FAST Desean..the best long ball "tracker" in the game...and Garcon...THAT made the long ball available. Gruden complained that Kirk didn't trust the receivers in 2017 and thus didn't throw long..so Capt Checkdown played it safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Let's not forget Pryor dropsies, Doctson poor route running (he caught only 45% of the passes thrown his way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 We will upgrade the interior OL, plus we will see a major upgrade at both RB and WR. Smith is going to be just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: We will upgrade the interior OL, plus we will see a major upgrade at both RB and WR. Smith is going to be just fine. That's what I'm worrying about, the lack of talented WR. Of course Upgrading OL and RB will help, but this draft class is weak concerning WRs and probably weaker than the 2016 draft (Doctson). I can't see any N°1 receiver available in FA either (I doubt we're going to trade for Landry). Alex Smith is in a tough situation here, and as Vernon he's no spring chicken. I can be wrong but I do not expect much from him, he's just an emergency fill the hole QB, thanks to Snydallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible_Red40 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 On 2018-03-03 at 2:10 AM, SkinsFTW said: What makes it even funnier though is when you compare this disinformation about Cousins with their defense of Alex Smith as being this ultra confident and competitive guy. Like he's the 2nd coming of Brett Favre. What is the point anyway? You don't even need to try hard to counter this argument for Alex Smith. Just Google the word "checkdown" and click on images and see who's picture comes up, almost exclusively over and over and over. Get used to it everybody and now next year it's going to be all that most of you will want to talk about. I know this because I've just spent the past 4-5 years hearing it from Chiefs fans on seriusxm every single week it's about half of what Chiefs fans talk about after most games. If checking it down gets us a winning percentage of 68.3% (his last 7 years), playoff appearances, and a chance to win, while he's here..... Sign me up, I'll take it. Football is more about winning than what ever stats you want him to put up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 23 minutes ago, Audible_Red40 said: If checking it down gets us a winning percentage of 68.3% (his last 7 years), playoff appearances, and a chance to win, while he's here..... Somebody is in for a rude awakening and it's starting to seem like a lot of Redskins fans are that dude from Memento. (For instance to achieve that winning % the Redskins would have to win more games in a season than they have since 1991 and you think that's going to be the average over a span of years?) So here, write it on your arm if you have to and check out the W-L % of a few guys, such as Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman, and even Mark Brunell, before the Redskins vs their time with the Redskins, and remember Brunell even had Joe Gibbs, Portis, Moss, Cooley and Gregg Williams top 5 defense and still was under .500 with the Redskins. I like optimism when it's warranted but come on people, this **** is getting ridiculous. And just watch, preseason will roll around and somebody is going to start that thread about how unbelievable and disrespectful it is that ESPN or whoever has the Redskins rated out of the top 15 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshSkinsFan Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 No legitimate deep threats in Kansas until last year and a Coach who calls a very conservative, short yardage version of the WCO but sure Alex Smith should have said forget the play call and just heaved it down the field every snap, give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 For those saying the Skins have no WR's, I was at the Vikings game and couldn't believe the catch Harris made on the goal line...total highlight film catch. I also have high hopes for Robert Davis. I see him as another Anthony Lanier, small school, needs a year to learn the league, gets more reps in year 2 and the talent starts to take over. Maybe sign a Jeremy Maclin to add with they guys we already have and focus on beefing up the running game which I know is a high priority after hearing Doug Williams talk. Maclin makes sense given his history with Alex Smith...I can see him being a solid piece til the younger guys step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchetwound Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Im shocked how many people hate this trade. Lets face it. We are to good to have a high draft pick to draft a QB. Kirk wants to much money. The only way we can land ourselves a top flight QB is to get creative. A former #1 overall pick with superbowl experience? Yes please!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHuv21 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, hatchetwound said: A former #1 overall pick with superbowl experience? Yes please!!!! He was the back up QB on that super bowl team! By that logic, we cut a QB (Nate Sudfield) with super bowl experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchetwound Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, BigHuv21 said: He was the back up QB on that super bowl team! By that logic, we cut a QB (Nate Sudfield) with super bowl experience That's just silly. Nate didn't have any playoff experience when we cut him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 45 minutes ago, hatchetwound said: Im shocked how many people hate this trade. Lets face it. We are to good to have a high draft pick to draft a QB. Kirk wants to much money. The only way we can land ourselves a top flight QB is to get creative. A former #1 overall pick with superbowl experience? Yes please!!!! It feels kind of like you're trolling with the whole super bowl experience thing. But I'll say this, when this FO gets creative, particularly at the QB position, the results are tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchetwound Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: It feels kind of like you're trolling with the whole super bowl experience thing. But I'll say this, when this FO gets creative, particularly at the QB position, the results are tragic. I'm not trolling one bit. That year Alex Smith was the signal caller of a top NFL team before his injury. He still was a big reason they were in position to get to the superbowl and he was there to experience it. When he takes over and we make the playoffs, if we go on a run and make it to the big game, having the leader of the offense take the guys aside and say "Ok, this is what media day is like" and "Here is how we handled our prep the week leading up to Sunday" will be invaluable. There is a reason that certain teams, like the steelers, patriots, seahags, etc always seem to make it. They know what it takes to get there. Having that presents in the locker room can ONLY be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, hatchetwound said: I'm not trolling one bit. That year Alex Smith was the signal caller of a top NFL team before his injury. He still was a big reason they were in position to get to the superbowl and he was there to experience it. When he takes over and we make the playoffs, if we go on a run and make it to the big game, having the leader of the offense take the guys aside and say "Ok, this is what media day is like" and "Here is how we handled our prep the week leading up to Sunday" will be invaluable. There is a reason that certain teams, like the steelers, patriots, seahags, etc always seem to make it. They know what it takes to get there. Having that presents in the locker room can ONLY be a good thing. I agree with this. In addition, I'd also argue that no one would ever argue that Carson Wentz's contributions were meaningless towards the Eagles' Superbowl win this year even though Foles finished off the season, swept the playoffs, and did so well in winning the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I’m not sure where to file Alex Smith’s super bowl experience as a backup on the list of stretch positives that I’ve been reading. Perhaps just below “wanting to be here” and “he’s a competitor”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan35yrs. Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 7:47 AM, goskins10 said: I feel like I should take the same 3 posts and copy paste as the same responses come time after time. Here we go again - They made the offer very early on. And at least in his eyes it was extremely low. Not to be accused of stealing someone else's example - I will give @Rufus T Firefly a credit here for the car analogy : If you are selling a $10,000 car and someone offers you $6,000, are you going to bother responding? Especially when you provided them an offer the year before and they tagged you instead of negotiating? I would not. And agree or not, Kirk's team felt like they were extremely low balled. And they expected another offer - especially in June when the team made noises (if local media and some of those close to the situation are to be believed) they were going to make another offer. However they did not. Once that became clear he decided just to play on the $24M Tag. The reason I state this - again - is that just making the blanket statement that he refused to negotiate is misleading. He was willing to until they low-balled him - at least in his eyes, then backed out of providing another offer after making it appear they were going to. I do agree he should have probably given them some kind of offer. But considering the posture the Redskins FO has taken with him - especially Bruce - you can see why he felt like they were not really committed. Has Kirk come right out and said I hate Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder? No. And actually I do not think Kirk has a problem with Dan. But if you look at how everything has gone and what Kirk has said - and more importantly not said - I think you can make a pretty compelling argument that he has little to no respect for Bruce Allen and as a result has concerns about the direction of the team. 1. The teams tagging him instead for considering the $19M/ yr offer - granted we do not know the details. But if we are going to ding Kirk for not responding this last off season, then we have to ding the team for not responding to the initial offer. They could have at least countered with something. By not even discussing it they were saying he was crazy high. Which I can see them placing the tag if they really believed that. It goes both ways. 2. Kirk repeatedly stating he just wanted the team to show him they wanted him - in the words of Rod Tidwell - Show me the money! That's Bruce Allen's job and so far he has never provided a market level offer. 3. Kirk over the last 12 months has had very good things to say about his team mates, Jay Gruden, and even Dan Snyder saying "Dan has been very good to me." The one person noticeably absent from those comments is Bruce Allen. Maybe I am reading too much into it. But when he goes out of his way to say something positive about every single person in the organization but one - that to me is a huge red flag. Based on those factors I do not see it as a huge leap to suggest Kirk has a real problem with Bruce Allen and his ability to build the team. to answer the second comment first, You still don't know this to be true, its just your opinion and as to the first. I was selling an item for "10,000" but a potential buyer came in far less, did i ignore him, hell no but I did tell him I got to get at least "9500" we haggled but did not come to an agreement, but we haggled. Another time i wanted to buy an item and came in low hoping to bring his selling price down and to my surprise he did we haggled and I got a very nice but used ATV for a good price. You see that how people deal, sellers come high buyers come low and then sometimes they meet in the middle sometimes not. But interested parties don't just ignore each other, well not including you. I will stand by my opinion, if Kirk really wanted to be here he would have made it work, he didn't and even went as far as to try and handcuff the skins by not dealing with us at all again this year and wanting to taste fee agency which would have screwed us because we would have been in limbo and not be able to make any deals with anyone until the cousins issue was settled and by then we very well would have been left out on being able to acquire any good players on the market, be it QB, WR, RB or whom we ever are in need of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 4 hours ago, skinsfan35yrs. said: to answer the second comment first, You still don't know this to be true, its just your opinion and as to the first. I was selling an item for "10,000" but a potential buyer came in far less, did i ignore him, hell no but I did tell him I got to get at least "9500" we haggled but did not come to an agreement, but we haggled. Another time i wanted to buy an item and came in low hoping to bring his selling price down and to my surprise he did we haggled and I got a very nice but used ATV for a good price. You see that how people deal, sellers come high buyers come low and then sometimes they meet in the middle sometimes not. But interested parties don't just ignore each other, well not including you. I will stand by my opinion, if Kirk really wanted to be here he would have made it work, he didn't and even went as far as to try and handcuff the skins by not dealing with us at all again this year and wanting to taste fee agency which would have screwed us because we would have been in limbo and not be able to make any deals with anyone until the cousins issue was settled and by then we very well would have been left out on being able to acquire any good players on the market, be it QB, WR, RB or whom we ever are in need of. actually, yes I do know they did not make what was considered a competitive market offer. It was widely discussed then. But let's just for the sake of argument say I don;t. It really does not have anything to do with the main point that in Kirk's mind it was not a valid offer. And I am sorry, as someone who actually worked in the car business before becoming an engineer, I can tell you when someone gave a really low offer you walk away. If they are really interested they will give another offer. If they do then we can negotiate. If they don;t give another offer then they were not really interested. Maybe you want to waste your time with someone trying to get something cheap, as someone who was in the business I can tell you that's not how yo make money. You have to weed out the serious buyers from the people looking for a steal. The rest, with all due respect there is no reason for responding as I just cannot see how anyone can rationally come to the conclusion that Kirk screwed the team and that it was somehow on him to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 There is a slightly different spin on this entire car analogy thing . When the team approached him in 2015 it was after or around the bears game in his first year as a starter . In kirks own words (town hall meeting end of this season) he wanted to talk to the team then . But Mcartthy told him to wait till the end of the season where either free agency or the franchise tag awaited . Its also interesting that that first TAG was the non exclusive tag and no one really came a sniffing around himself as far as I know he and his agent made no real push to find another team . The point is instead of really trying to engage with the team Kirk put all of his faith in his agent . Macarthy is very selective about his clients and he and kirk have very similar beleif structures so probably do have a strong bond . But Mcarthy is a sports agent . All he sees is - at the end of the day $$$$ and I kind of worry or belive there is a chance that Mcarthy is using kirk as a chip / shop window to a) show he can get his clients paid and b.) break the NFL pay structure by getting kirk the first fully garunteed multi year contract . The garuntees are all the agent really cares about in any deal because that's what they make their cut on . But fully garunteed contracts kind of break the NFL salary cap as they remove any flexibility ... But if this was the plan ( or part of it) then this falls away from kirk vs the team to Mcarthy vs the salary cap ...and it just so happens the player he was able to make this happen with played on the Redskins team . The key is now weather the rumours of kirks 3 year 91 mil deal fully garunteed actually come to fruition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 15 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: But I'll say this, when this FO gets creative, particularly at the QB position, the results are tragic. I like Alex. However, he's got his detractors. I was listening to Galdi this morning and they had a guy from Football Outsiders who wasn't complementary to the Redskins about swapping QBs this off season coupled with the compensation they gave up to do it. They explained the "Alex" stat is about check downs but in particular for third down and long. In their minds, if you are 3rd and long and still throwing check downs that's ultra conservative. By their metrics Alex was improved on that front this year but still among the bottom of the league. Aaron Rodgers apparently is consistently aggressive on third and long -- he lets it fly. Kirk up and down on the stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I like Alex. However, he's got his detractors. That's about where I'm at. My point was more that we've been down this road before and it's never been good. I'd expect most folks to need to see something to get excited about before they actually get excited based on that alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 7 hours ago, bedlamVR said: There is a slightly different spin on this entire car analogy thing . When the team approached him in 2015 it was after or around the bears game in his first year as a starter . In kirks own words (town hall meeting end of this season) he wanted to talk to the team then . But Mcartthy told him to wait till the end of the season where either free agency or the franchise tag awaited . Its also interesting that that first TAG was the non exclusive tag and no one really came a sniffing around himself as far as I know he and his agent made no real push to find another team . The point is instead of really trying to engage with the team Kirk put all of his faith in his agent . Macarthy is very selective about his clients and he and kirk have very similar beleif structures so probably do have a strong bond . But Mcarthy is a sports agent . All he sees is - at the end of the day $$$$ and I kind of worry or belive there is a chance that Mcarthy is using kirk as a chip / shop window to a) show he can get his clients paid and b.) break the NFL pay structure by getting kirk the first fully garunteed multi year contract . The garuntees are all the agent really cares about in any deal because that's what they make their cut on . But fully garunteed contracts kind of break the NFL salary cap as they remove any flexibility ... But if this was the plan ( or part of it) then this falls away from kirk vs the team to Mcarthy vs the salary cap ...and it just so happens the player he was able to make this happen with played on the Redskins team . The key is now weather the rumours of kirks 3 year 91 mil deal fully garunteed actually come to fruition The non-exclusive tag is kind of a joke as it requires giving up 2 1st rd picks. Also, at that time it is just possible - I know this is hard for the people that are not big Kirk fans to believe - he wanted to stay in Washington. To my knowledge no team has signed a non-exclusive player from another team. There have been a few tag and trades. But there are no indications that was on the table then - it could have been but I have to believe by now that would have found it's way to the media and then to the fans. All the other details have. Also, the whole agents only see money and Kirk's agent was just using him as some pawn is really reaching. And you are mixing facts. His agent told him in 2015 that he believed in him and to bet on himself. He said nothing about being a FA or being tagged. You re adding that. The thought by them was they could get a better contract from the Redskins if he proved himself a bit more. Not sure I see that as using him as some pawn. That's when Kirk and his agent gave the $19M/yr offer and the team just ignored it and tagged Kirk. Why not at least negotiate with him at that point? You made an offer early. He wanted to wait till the end of the season. They gave a counter offer. And instead of negotiating - they made no effort during the time from tagging him to July to sign him - they tagged him and said prove it next year. Then when he did it again they again tagged him and then gave him what at least Kirk and his agent though was a very low offer. The team never reached out again so Kirk decided to just play on the tag - I mean $24M guaranteed for one year is not exactly bad money. Now the team spent $44M on a QB for 2 yrs and are letting him walk for nothing. Not a single thing!! Why are some of you not pissed off about that!! You keep down playing it and/or trying to blame Kirk! I am just not sure why some of you just can't admit the team hosed this up from day one. Yes, in the end Kirk and his agent played hardball. But they were pretty much forced into it by the Redskins. Not directly at you necessarily, but some even going as far as saying Kirk screwed the team and it's mostly on him this did not work out. Bottom line for me - and I am about done with this - kudos to those of you with the patience to continue having this conversation day after day after day - 1. The deal itself for Alex is not a bad move - gave up too much but I like Alex and hopefully they will use the CAP money saved to get some solid players to build the team as so many have said the team needed. I will root for him just as hard as I rooted for Kirk and Robert before him - and all the players that wear B&G. 2. While Kirk certainly owns some of this as all breakdowns in relationships take two - he owns only a small part and more importantly the team is the one who initiated the downward spiral. The facts are all there. They can be ignored or distorted but that will not change them. 3. It's absolute incompetence at it's highest for the team to get nothing for the hottest commodity on the market. You can say that Kirk didn't play ball all you want. But the FO - Bruce specifically - is being paid to predict all reasonable eventualities and prepare for them in a way that protects the team and it's assets. He had to know that there was a reasonable chance Kirk would decide he didn't want to be here. If not he is even more arrogant than I already think he is and that's pretty bad. He failed miserably here. Does that mean the team is destined to compete failure? Of course not. I will always be team first player second fan. Had they gotten something tangible for Kirk - like a 1st, 2nd or a few other picks or maybe a 3rd rd pick and young CB - oh wait that was Andy Reid - then I could live with it. They took a shot. They don't believe in Kirk so they moved him and got at least some reasonable compensation. But they managed the process in the only manner that hurt the team the most - they had to pay for a replacement (over paid IMO) and they let Kirk go for zero compensation outside at most a possible 3rd comp pick for 2019! So it should come as no surprise that I don't have a lot of confidence that the current FO will make enough right decisions moving forward to make this a SB team. Could they? Of course. But so far under Bruce Allen the team has made 2 POs and has an overall losing record and he just let a starting QB go without protecting the teams interests. Not sure how so many are willing to mostly give him a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 @goskins10 Just for the fun of it: What do you feel the Skins would’ve gotten back for Kirk on a franchise tag of 24mil last year? In my unprofessional view—— it would’ve been difficult to get a deal with any potential team, due to Kirk wanting free agency last year and this year. The same people saying how crazy it would be for Skins to franchise Kirk this year must apply same logic to last year. So Skins decided to go with a capable starter and team they thought could reach the postseason. There’s value in doing this and having Kirk for an additional year. ******The difference in Chiefs getting value and Alex with Skins: The Skins traded for Alex Smith because they were working with a willing participant to negotiate a long term deal. If Alex didn’t want to sign here long term the deal wouldn’t have taken place. Smith also has 1 year left on deal at an amazing pay rate (17mil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible_Red40 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 23 minutes ago, goskins10 said: The non-exclusive tag is kind of a joke as it requires giving up 2 1st rd picks. Also, at that time it is just possible - I know this is hard for the people that are not big Kirk fans to believe - he wanted to stay in Washington. To my knowledge no team has signed a non-exclusive player from another team. See 1998: Happened with our very own Redskins. A franchise tag feud between Sean Gilbert and the Redskins. Gilbert ended up signing with the Panthers after sitting out a year, in which the Redskins did not match and received 2 first round picks in return. Side note: History would show that with all the wheeling and dealing in 99/00, the Redskins ended up with Brad Johnson, Champ Bailey, Chris Samuels and LaVar Arrington, amongst other minor gains and losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 12 minutes ago, wit33 said: What do you feel the Skins would’ve gotten back for Kirk on a franchise tag of 24mil last year? More than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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