2018 Free Agency Database - (Signed: WILLIAMS - McPhee - Scandrick - P-Rich) - (Lauvao, Bergstrom, Nsehke, Taylor, Z. Brown and Quick re-signed)

[Renegade7]

36 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

Good points.  We need to find a starting RG because ours is not being paid what elite RG's make.  We need to find a slot WR because ours is not being paid what elite Slot WR's make.  We need to find an OLB because ours is not being paid what elite OLB's make.  Hell,  we need 14-15 new starters because ours are not being paid what elite starters make.

 

Excellent post.

You think this is funny, but I'm telling you its not.  How are we supposed to have a serious discussion about this if you believe that's my actual thought process on this?  To me, you aren't getting my point and trying to laugh it away instead of trying to see where I'm coming from on this (I'm trying to meet ya'll halfway and instead ya'll are talking to me like I'm a 5 year old).

 

Dunbar's extension was a full month before we traded Fuller or publicly came out and said we weren't bringing Breeland back.  Why would Dunbar and his Agent agree to an extension like that in his prime if the expectation was for him to play a role that would've demanded higher market value?  Because the plan wasn't to make him the starter, the plan was to bring him back for depth.  Now he's about to be the starter, and some of ya'll are fine with that plan?

 

For a franchise that for the most part want's Allen's head on a pike, I'm surprised to see this level of defending him.  It might just be denial, but that's okay, I want to be wrong, too.

[Master Blaster]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

Dunbar's extension was a full month before we traded Fuller or publicly came out and said we weren't bringing Breeland back.  Why would Dunbar agree to an extension like that in his prime if the expectation was for him to play a role that would've demanded higher market value?  Because the plan wasn't to make him the starter, the plan was to bring him back for depth.  Now he's about the starter, and some of ya'll are fine with that plan?

 

 

I'll get serious for a second.  I see Moreau as the planned starter.  That's why he was drafted in the 3rd round with a 1st round grade but for injury.  If I recall, Breeland was 4th round?

People are joking because the logic behind your post is mind-boggling.  You seem to suggest if Allen just overpaid for everyone the team would somehow be better. 

[JoggingGod]

 

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

People are joking because the logic behind your post is mind-boggling.  You seem to suggest if Allen just overpaid for everyone the team would somehow be better. 

That's not what I'm saying at all, is that what ya'll think I'm saying? 

 

I don't agree with our plan at CB, I believe Dunbar got paid what he got paid because he wasn't expected to be the starter when we did that.  Now we've gone backwards at depth in CB (its not longer a strength), and people are fine this hoping Dunbar and Moreau overachieve.  From what we can tell, Breeland never got a counter-offer, the reason to let him go probably had nothing to do with money for all we know.

 

This all sounds like a really really bad idea.  Look at my sig and you'll understand why.

 

Edit: The plan for Moreau is not illogical, but I don't like it because we're going on the hope that he will be as good or better then Breeland in 2018.  He's going to go through the same growing pains as Breeland did, why are we setting ourselves up for this and expecting better results?

[Master Blaster]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

That's not what I'm saying at all, is that what ya'll think I'm saying? 

 

I don't agree with our plan at CB, I believe Dunbar got paid what he got paid because he wasn't expected to be the starter when we did that.  Now we've gone backwards at depth in CB (its not longer a strength), and people are fine this hoping Dunbar and Moreau overachieve.  From what we can tell, Breeland never got a counter-offer, the reason to let him go probably had nothing to do with money for all we know.

 

This all sounds like a really really bad idea.  Look at my sig and you'll understand why.

 

That's what your argument appears to be.

 

How is asking a 1st Round talent to start year 2 hoping he overachieves?  The fact that you haven't seen him doesn't mean the coaches/FO aren't watching how he performs in practice and making decisions based off of that.  As you said yourself, it appears the decision to let Bree go is more than just money.  Could it be that they know they have replacements in house that are just as good if not better?

I mean, I get we can be negative as much as we want, but these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

That's what your argument appears to be.

 

How is asking a 1st Round talent to start year 2 hoping he overachieves?  The fact that you haven't seen him doesn't mean the coaches/FO aren't watching how he performs in practice and making decisions based off of that.  As you said yourself, it appears the decision to let Bree go is more than just money.  Could it be that they know they have replacements in house that are just as good if not better?

I mean, I get we can be negative as much as we want, but these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. 

 

I've tried to keep this specific to greivenance for what we're doing at corner, my feelings about the rest of the team are specific to their individual parts and not what I'm talking about right now. 

 

We've seen rookie corners step in and hold the fort on other teams, that's not what we saw with Moreau.  What we saw was someone who couldn't beat out Dunbar on the depth chart last year, now we're talking about expecting him to not only do that, but play better then Breeland as well.  If Moreau was ready to take over that role, we would've seen more from him on the field in 2017.  You have to admit that'd be a helluva leap to go from someone flirting with playing dime to the #2 corner in one offseason. 

 

That's not me being negative, that's me being logical.  The plan for corner backfired, now we're trying to connect the dots to try and make sense of it, regardless of the web of reasoning.

 

 

[Master Blaster]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I've tried to keep this specific to greivenance for what we're doing at corner, my feelings about the rest of the team are specific to their individual parts and not what I'm talking about right now. 

 

We've seen rookie corners step in and hold the fort on other teams, that's not what we saw with Moreau.  What we saw was someone who couldn't beat out Dunbar on the depth chart last year, now we're talking about expecting him to not only do that, but play better then Breeland as well.  If Moreau was ready to take over that role, we would've seen more from him on the field in 2017.  You have to admit that'd be a helluva leap to go from someone flirting with playing dime to the #2 corner in one offseason. 

 

That's not me being negative, that's me being logical.  The plan for corner backfired, now we're trying to connect the dots to try and make sense of it, regardless of the web of reasoning.

 

 

 

Did you forget the part where Moreau was coming back from injury?  He couldn't beat anyone out because he wasn't physically ready to go.

 

Kind of like how Fuller, who you admittedly are upset left the team, went from injured rookie who looked like a wasted pick to a great slot corner from year 1 to 2. 

[JSSkinz]

14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I don't agree with our plan at CB, I believe Dunbar got paid what he got paid because he wasn't expected to be the starter when we did that.  Now we've gone backwards at depth in CB (its not longer a strength), and people are fine this hoping Dunbar and Moreau overachieve.  From what we can tell, Breeland never got a counter-offer, the reason to let him go probably had nothing to do with money for all we know.

 

 

3

 

Dunbar started 4 games last year and was first off the bench for Breeland and Norman throughout the season. He's been ascending each year and looks very capable.

 

By the way, Dunbar had an 80 PFF ranking last year and Breeland had a 79.

 

[skinny21]

@Renegade7

 

Until this last post, you never even mentioned Moreau - a guy coaches have raved about.  No mention of Holsey (though that’s less germane to the topic of outside corners).  You also referred to DRC as a target to replace Breeland (he wasn’t).  You also seemed to look at Dunbar’s salary to judge whether he is able to start, and haven’t made any mention of how he played when stepping in for Breeland and Norman.  You seem to put Dunbar as the starter in ink, rather than pencil.  No mention of the draft having a lot of corner depth, not much weight put into our salary cap issues, and (I may have missed it) no mention of the likely/potential comp pick for Breeland.  

 

So, it makes it tough to really try to appease/assuage you until you recognize those things appropriately, ya’ know?

 

The real spot to be concerned about, IMO, is slot corner.  Norman, Dunbar and Moreau are a nice trio, even though we haven’t seen enough from the latter two to be 100% comfortable.  Slot corner though, Holsey is a complete unknown without anywhere near the accolades Moreau received, and Scandrick hasn’t played well for a while now.  The last thing we need is to take a dramatic step back on 3rd downs.  

 

This is the main reason I’m so intrigued by Fitzpatrick if he falls to us in the draft.  

 

With all of that said, I don’t think your fundamental concern is invalid... we should have concerns about our corners.  I just don’t think outside corner is the weakness you make it out to be, especially as we still have the draft coming up (to address our lack of depth).  

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

Did you forget the part where Moreau was coming back from injury?  He couldn't beat anyone out because he wasn't physically ready to go.

 

Kind of like how Fuller, who you admittedly are upset left the team, went from injured rookie who looked like a wasted pick to a great slot corner from year 1 to 2. 

I did not forget, I'm taking a wait and see approach.  I never wanted Fuller gone, and everyone feels the way about losing him because of his play on the field in year 2, not year 1.

 

Redskins have completely jaded on me hoping for production without seeing it first.

12 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Dunbar started 4 games last year and was first off the bench for Breeland and Norman throughout the season. He's been ascending each year and looks very capable.

 

By the way, Dunbar had an 80 PFF ranking last year and Breeland had a 79.

 

 

That PFF rating I noticed when I first started going off about the corner thing and ya'll may have missed this, I have yet to say Breeland was better then Dunbar last year. Breeland has more talent and higher ceiling, which is huge reason why I'm upset he's gone.  I can't with a straight face have the same expectations for Dunbar that I have for Breeland because of it.  Filling in is very different from being the #2 corner from get-go.  If he can handle that, fantastic, he hasn't shown that yet, Breeland did, DRC has shown he can.  

[Renegade7]

45 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Renegade7

 

Until this last post, you never even mentioned Moreau - a guy coaches have raved about.  No mention of Holsey (though that’s less germane to the topic of outside corners).  You also referred to DRC as a target to replace Breeland (he wasn’t).  You also seemed to look at Dunbar’s salary to judge whether he is able to start, and haven’t made any mention of how he played when stepping in for Breeland and Norman.  You seem to put Dunbar as the starter in ink, rather than pencil.  No mention of the draft having a lot of corner depth, not much weight put into our salary cap issues, and (I may have missed it) no mention of the likely/potential comp pick for Breeland.  

 

So, it makes it tough to really try to appease/assuage you until you recognize those things appropriately, ya’ know?

 

The real spot to be concerned about, IMO, is slot corner.  Norman, Dunbar and Moreau are a nice trio, even though we haven’t seen enough from the latter two to be 100% comfortable.  Slot corner though, Holsey is a complete unknown without anywhere near the accolades Moreau received, and Scandrick hasn’t played well for a while now.  The last thing we need is to take a dramatic step back on 3rd downs.  

 

This is the main reason I’m so intrigued by Fitzpatrick if he falls to us in the draft.  

 

With all of that said, I don’t think your fundamental concern is invalid... we should have concerns about our corners.  I just don’t think outside corner is the weakness you make it out to be, especially as we still have the draft coming up.  

 

Ya, I talked about why I'm not even mentioning Moreau in another thread, but I can't expect ya'll to know everything about how I feel without making it clear first.  I get tired of repeating myself when I feel like I'm getting ignored anyway, though.

 

Having said that, do I have to explain why I don't like the idea of Hosley being the starter, no one else has brought that up as an option, either.  The thing about Dunbar's contract bothers the hell out of me because yes, it doesn't look like Dunbar and his agent agreed to that contract with the understanding that he would be the starter, not in his prime like that.  You bring up DRC, and I feel the same way about him as I do with Scandrick (it's one thing to have an idea of what people's roles are when you get them, but you need the talent and let the depth chart sort itself out at corner given our options).  We can debate about where we stand at outside corner, but we absolutely have a drop-off at slot now.

 

Bringing up the draft just admits that we shot ourselves in the foot on this one.  We were talking about RB and DL (to me, that was our main weakness coming into the offseason), now we're talking about using a 1st or 2nd rounder on a CB as an option?  We shouldn't be here, this shouldn't be happening to begin with.  I know I'm not crazy, but I also know I'm way more pessimistic about this then some of ya'll are.  Part of it is my insistence that we shouldn't be having this conversation to begin with.  A lot of the comments I see about not liking Breeland is him making youngin mistakes.  Drafting his replacement seems hypocritical in that case.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, JoggingGod said:

 

 

Wonder if the Jets really are serious contenders for Hankins.

[tchrpe1]

Well they definitely have the cap space for him.  With that greedy Poston for an agent pretty sure Hankins will looking for every last dollar. 

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I mean, that's fair not to draw too many conclusions from his contract, I just find that suspect as hell.  I mean, he's in his prime, why would he accept making peanuts for his prime if the plan is to have him start?  They don't have to say he's the starter, and you're right, they shouldn't, but I haven't even seen a hint that they are thinking about it, just that he plays hard and super smart  (that's at minimum what you want from a starter)

 

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I don't agree with their plan from what I can tell it is so far, and if they're serious about naming Dunbar the starter, then I'd not only be surprised, I'd be disappointed.  

 

Edit:  I'm mad at them, yes, but I agree that a bad plan and no plan is not synonymous.  In my eye, that might as well be.

 

 

Was not trying to put words in your mouth. I was responding to @Califan007 specifically but with a very general comment. I do not believe I called you out directly. But am sorry if you felt that way. Was never the intent. 

 

Why should there be any hint? They owe us nothing. Everything they tell us they tell the rest of the league. This day and age of instant gratification has created an environment where everyone thinks they are entitled to know every detail. I just do not agree with that at all. Honestly I am glad they have figured out a way to keep things in house - of course unless they need damage control - then it's a sieve, But that's a different topic.

 

Again, they really owe us nothing. I will go a step further, it would detrimental for them to say anything. What if they say - we think he is the starter and it turns out he is not. They find out someone else is better. Everyone would be all over them. WTF - you said he was the starter. Don't you know your own people? Yet if they say nothing like they should, it's they should tell us something. 

 

I am totally Ok with them not saying a thing until Sept 9th when the season opens. It should be an open competition until then. We will certainly get some idea when OTAs and TC get started. Until then, I think we just need to be patient. 

 

Let's talk about what's really going on here - I get you are pissed because they let Breeland go and traded Fuller. I am not happy about Fuller myself. However, once Bruce backed himself into a corner, something had to give. As for Breeland, I could care less. He was not great and he had head case issues. He took the signing of Norman the wrong way from the beginning. Then he pouted all for 2016. He played better in 2017 but that was a contract year for him. 

 

As for DRC - I was only luke warm on him but he would have been decent. Having said that, he is clearly asking for too much. He has still not signed with anyone. I agree Bruce and be too tight sometimes. But in fairness it's not like other teams are forking over the money either. Nothing wrong with holding the line. 

 

I am in total wait and see mode. There is just too much off-season to go - not the least of which is the draft then post draft cuts. 

 

Last but not least - they have a plan. One you clearly do not like - and that's fair. But I disagree that not having a plan and having one that some see as not a good plan are not the same thing. 

 

 

[Renegade7]

23 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Was not trying to put words in your mouth. I was responding to @Califan007 specifically but with a very general comment. I do not believe I called you out directly. But am sorry if you felt that way. Was never the intent. 

 

I am in total wait and see mode. There is just too much off-season to go - not the least of which is the draft then post draft cuts. 

 

Last but not least - they have a plan. One you clearly do not like - and that's fair. But I disagree that not having a plan and having one that some see as not a good plan are not the same thing. 

 

It's all good, man.  I know my passion can be mistaken for coming in like a bowling bowl sometimes, but I promise my heart is in the right place, and we all want the same thing, just disagree on how to get there.

 

I've mentioned I work in IT, so I've seen bad plans do considerably more damage then admitting we don't have a good one, and sitting down to make one, especially if we have time to. This is looking like they knew Breeland wasn't coming back for a while, I don't need to know why, I don't want to know everything (you mentioned that tends to backfire on us, and I agree). 

 

To me, considering what's happened to our corner depth I wish someone would just come out and do just a little damage control or vote of confidence, especially if its heading in the direction some of us see coming. From what I'm seeing the plan is not going according to plan and the plan is being adjusted on the fly.  It's hard for me to give them credit for having a plan when now it looks considerably different then the one they went into the offseason with (one I didn't agree with to begin with because it involved letting go of Breeland without even giving a counter offer).

 

I'm going to hope for the best, there's no point in setting the franchise on fire before we even get to OTAs.  I just feel like I've seen this movie before and know how it ends.  This is going to get ugly if we claim to be in win-now mode and don't make the playoffs.  At some point, not now, but we're going to need to make a thread asking if this is a playoff roster or not and be truly honest with ourselves.  As of right now, you probably can already guess my answer, but like you said, a whole lotta offseason left.  

[goskins10]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

It's all good, man.  I know my passion can be mistaken for coming in like a bowling bowl sometimes, but I promise my heart is in the right place, and we all want the same thing, just disagree on how to get there.

 

I've mentioned I work in IT, so I've seen bad plans do considerably more damage then admitting we don't have a good one, and sitting down to make one, especially if we have time to. This is looking like they knew Breeland wasn't coming back for a while, I don't need to know why, I don't want to know everything (you mentioned that tends to backfire on us, and I agree). 

 

To me, considering what's happened to our corner depth I wish someone would just come out and do just a little damage control or vote of confidence, especially if its heading in the direction some of us see coming. From what I'm seeing the plan is not going according to plan and the plan is being adjusted on the fly.  It's hard for me to give them credit for having a plan when now it looks considerably different then the one they went into the offseason with (one I didn't agree with to begin with because it involved letting go of Breeland without even giving a counter offer).

 

I'm going to hope for the best, there's no point in setting the franchise on fire before we even get to OTAs.  I just feel like I've seen this movie before and know how it ends.  This is going to get ugly if we claim to be in win-now mode and don't make the playoffs.  At some point, not now, but we're going to need to make a thread asking if this is a playoff roster or not and be truly honest with ourselves.  As of right now, you probably can already guess my answer, but like you said, a whole lotta offseason left.  

 

This I totally agree with. So do not mistake my willingness to wait as a vote of confidence in the FO. I have very little confidence. But I also acknowledge there is a lot I do not know. Also, while I am not thrilled with who Bruce has been bringing in and how he does his job, I do have faith in Jay and the coaches ability to bring guys along - maybe more than you which is where we end up going in different ways on this. But they have been developing guys - something we have not seen here in a long time. There are still so many moving parts that there is still a path to a better team. Maybe they dumb their way into the right one this time..

 

 

[Anselmheifer]

I had forgotten how good Fabian Moreau's combine numbers were. Just ridiculous. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/fabian-moreau?id=2558136

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I had forgotten how good Fabian Moreau's combine numbers were. Just ridiculous. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/fabian-moreau?id=2558136

Truly believe he’s gonna be a stud for us in a similar vein to Fuller (but without the down year as he’s already recovered).  

 

@Renegade7 I mentioned the draft in terms of depth - finding a 4th outside corner... though I suppose Scandrick could fill that role if Holsey starts in the slot.  Not ideal IMO (regarding Scandrick) because I prefer the lower depth to be young guys with potential.  

 

Dunbar has all the tools I believe, and Moreau certainly does.  We may well see a dropoff there from Breeland, but Breeland was also inconsistent.  He’d show flashes/stretches of excellent play, and then some really poor play.  I think Dunbar will be more consistent and Moreau has a higher ceiling than Breeland.  

 

Honestly, setting aside the slot corner issue, I think our biggest concern with corner is how will we replace Norman next year?  Plenty of time to sort that out, but we really need to get that contract off the books, IMO.  

 

One thing to add to this discussion is the coaching. Gray seems like a gem of a positional coach and Manusky has made it clear you can never have too many corners.  I believe we’ll add a talented guy this draft to groom into solid depth or even into a starter role within the next couple of years.   

[Est.1974]

2 hours ago, tchrpe1 said:

Well they definitely have the cap space for him.  With that greedy Poston for an agent pretty sure Hankins will looking for every last dollar. 

 

Think we'll find out soon enough. Wouldn't surprise me if the Hankins situation is cleared up today.

[MartinC]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Edit: The plan for Moreau is not illogical, but I don't like it because we're going on the hope that he will be as good or better then Breeland in 2018.  He's going to go through the same growing pains as Breeland did, why are we setting ourselves up for this and expecting better results?

 

Because the salary cap is a zero sum game and its hard to pay two corners big money when you also need to extend a Pro Bowl RG, very good OLB/DE and maybe your best WR to market deals next season as well as paying big dollars to your stud LT, a QB, a TE (oft injured!) and a pass rusher. You can't keep everyone - so you have to trust your drafting and development of drafted players to fill out your roster around those big players.

 

Now your point is valid though, we have taken a position of strength and turned it into a question mark. Having Fuller involved in the deal to get Smith really hurts.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

This I totally agree with. So do not mistake my willingness to wait as a vote of confidence in the FO. I have very little confidence. But I also acknowledge there is a lot I do not know. Also, while I am not thrilled with who Bruce has been bringing in and how he does his job, I do have faith in Jay and the coaches ability to bring guys along - maybe more than you which is where we end up going in different ways on this. But they have been developing guys - something we have not seen here in a long time. There are still so many moving parts that there is still a path to a better team. Maybe they dumb their way into the right one this time..

 

 

 I'm so jaded at this point, I just can't figure out how anyone who has followed this team for more than 3 weeks or so could have one ounce of confidence in whatever "plan" these clowns think they have. They have no plan.  They screw everything they touch and then run with whatever is left and call it a plan.

[carex]

12 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

 I'm so jaded at this point, I just can't figure out how anyone who has followed this team for more than 3 weeks or so could have one ounce of confidence in whatever "plan" these clowns think they have. They have no plan.  They screw everything they touch and then run with whatever is left and call it a plan.

 

stop trying to spread your bad mood, your jadedness

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

Raiders sign recently arrested and release Daryl Worley. 

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23296216/oakland-raiders-sign-ex-philadelphia-eagles-cornerback-daryl-worley

 

edit - I assume we did due diligence on a cheap young (23) corner. 

[Est.1974]

8 hours ago, bowhunter said:

IMO, the difference between the Pryor/ Galette one year prove it type deals is that Hank has nothing to "prove." He's in the perfect situation where he is young enough to still be in his prime, yet experienced enough to have lots of tape showing what he can do. A one year deal is just leaves us in the very same situation next year. Hank is an exception who can be a anchor/blue chipper for a while. Don't overpay him, but give him enough to be happy. I'd seriously suggest 3yr $23M (8,6,9) is a good deal for both sides involved

 

I don't wildly disagree with what you are saying, I'm a big Hankins fan and want him here.

 

However, opinion on him around the league clearly isn't that cut and dry. He's looking for his third team in as many years, and it's appears that his only real suitors are two of the leagues most disfunctional outfits. 

 

No doubt Poston is trying to empty some teams pockets along the way, but a fully proven anchor/blue chipper finds works faster than Hankins does. 

 

A one year deal seems a wise approach in my opinion.

[markmills67]

2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Think we'll find out soon enough. Wouldn't surprise me if the Hankins situation is cleared up today.

What makes you think it could happen today, although it would be good to get an answer from Hankins either way.

 

HTTR