Mass Shooting at Texas Church

[LD0506]

 

 

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

The whole "good guy w/ a gun" mythos presupposes a "bad guy" running loose, already shooting people. Absolutely nothing in their credo addresses prevention of mass murder, the whole playbook is "Be the one to take him down and win valuable prizes!"

 

The NRA and their surrogates absolutely rely on the whole "Rambo" mythos where the average Joe gets to be the guy in the movies who comes in and shoots up all the bad guys, be the hero, and walk away from an explosion in slow motion without looking back at it. It's a complete fantasy and completely divorced from what actually happens or would happen in that situation in real life but there's no way to get that through the heads of the people with Rambo fantasy boners. 

 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Passively????

”The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

That’s not passive, they have it tattooed on their eyelids. But then show them a video of the “good guy” shooting the victim (gas station robbery last year) and thry want to dismiss it.

They really do want everyone running around armed and loaded. This is their fantasy.

 

It shocks me the little respect they have for peoples lives. As long as they are making that cheese they dont really care about anything. I swear I should have been a politician. All you have to do is smile, look acceptable and not give a ****. 

[Popeman38]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Thus the dilemma where every pastor is their own Pope. 

Woah woah woah.  Not every pastor is qualified to be a Pope.  There are very strict requirements that have to be met to become a Pope.  Ask my wife! 

[AsburySkinsFan]

16 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

Woah woah woah.  Not every pastor is qualified to be a Pope.  There are very strict requirements that have to be met to become a Pope.  Ask my wife! 

Well that’s kinda my point, as necessary as the Reformation was, it did give rise to free lance Papacies with little or no accountability. Now we have little Popes running around all claiming irrefutable divine revelations.

[Popeman38]

1 minute ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Well that’s kinda my point, as necessary as the Reformation was, it did give rise to free lance Papacies with little or no accountability. Now we have little Popes running around all claiming irrefutable divine revelations.

I can claim divine revelation?!?

 

That will really help with my arguments on here!!!

[AsburySkinsFan]

42 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Taxas AG: arm the populace

How very Texan. Instead of limiting the number of guns to limit the number of gun deaths...lets increase the number of guns and encourage vigilantes. All while the gun industry will make billions.

 

Never has this video clip been more true.

 

7 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

I can claim divine revelation?!?

 

That will really help with my arguments on here!!!

You can claim it, but I doubt it’ll help here.

For that you’ll need to do what I couldn’t, gather a cultish following who sees you as the only legitimate source of truth.

[AsburySkinsFan]

 

Posted by my city police chief this morning.

[MartinC]

Folks - we have a thread for the gun control 'debate' - let's keep this thread to specific updates or thoughts about the Texas shooting and try not to drift into general gun control (though clearly there is overlap!)

 

 

[visionary]

 

[Springfield]

Thank GOD he stopped him at 26!  If it were hundreds more, it would have been a massacre!

[Bang]

Thanking GOD that a man in a church had a gun to shoot the man who came into a church and killed women and children.....   if this doesn't clue you in on how ****ing stupid this entire myth is, i don't know what ever will.

 

Cringe in fearful adulation. Hopeless.

 

~Bang

 

[twa]

10 minutes ago, Bang said:

Thanking GOD that a man in a church had a gun to shoot the man who came into a church and killed women and children.....   if this doesn't clue you in on how ****ing stupid this entire myth is, i don't know what ever will.

 

Cringe in fearful adulation. Hopeless.

 

~Bang

 

 

The man that shot him was not in the church.

 

I recall one in Dallas that was and did with much different results for the congregation.

 

Of course there was the one in Nashville I think where a unarmed user subdued a shooter...then went and got his gun from the car..

 

people sure seem to like shooting church folk.....must be the thoughts and prayers thing.

[Kosher Ham]

2 hours ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

How very Texan. Instead of limiting the number of guns to limit the number of gun deaths...lets increase the number of guns and encourage vigilantes. All while the gun industry will make billions.

 

 

Thanks for the investment tip. 

 

Hmm...

[grego]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Posted by my city police chief this morning.

 

 

here's an article thats floating around. i'd like to get peoples general thoughts on it. it is obviously from a biased, pro gun standpoint. knowing that, is there some truth to what is being claimed- that psychiatric drugs are playing a role in many of these shootings? the article does go a little alex jones/conspiracy theorist for a minutes in the beginning, in terms of people dying in mysterious circumstances, so do your best to get past that. 

 

my questions would be- are the facts being presented true (even if from a biased source)? is there a comparable number of shootings that are committed by people who arent on these kinds of drugs? to asburys point, are these drugs as widely used in other countries as they are here, and that, combined with our access to powerful weapons, creates a potentially disastrous combination?

 

I dont know the answers. and probably the main reason i'm posting this and asking is because i'd love to know the 'why' as far as these mass shootings, which would hopefully lead to them being largely, at least, a thing of the past. (not ruling out gun control measures, for the record)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

"Nearly every mass shooting incident in the last twenty years, and multiple other instances of suicide and isolated shootings all share one thing in common, and it’s not the weapons used.

The overwhelming evidence points to the signal largest common factor in all of these incidents is the fact that all of the perpetrators were either actively taking powerful psychotropic drugs or had been at some point in the immediate past before they committed their crimes......

..........

• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac."

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/every-mass-shooting-in-the-last-20-years-shares-psychotropic-drugs

 

[LadySkinsFan]

Maybe it's prescribing these drugs and not doing the requisite talk therapy to go with it. I blame this on the insurance industry by only covering a set amount of money and times of treatment. As far as children are concerned (under 18), these drugs are tested on adults and not children. 

 

Some of this people aren't even treated. This guy was arrested, tried, and convicted of heinous crimes against humans and animals. I haven't yet seen where he was treated at all. Was he? Apparently he didn't get re-educated that's it's not okay to harm humans.

[Predicto]

15 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

But requiring voter ID is suppressing a right? And serves as a poll tax? You can’t spin one as acceptable and one as an affront to democracy. 

 

Umm...  I certainly can.   Read up on how the constitutional analysis requiring heightened scrutiny works, and what a compelling state interest is, and what a "pretextual law" is.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

@grego for me the question is about causation or correlation. Are the drugs responsible for the violence or where they violent people who took the drugs.

[Kosher Ham]

Ooh, I know he does not want me to go after that one. 

 

 

 

[Predicto]

3 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

@grego for me the question is about causation or correlation. Are the drugs responsible for the violence or where they violent people who took the drugs.

 

Exactly.  Anti-depressant and anti-psychotic drugs aren't causing murders.  However, people with mental illnesses usually are placed on such drugs in an effort to control their conditions.  And sometimes the drugs don't work (or don't get taken).  I have yet to see any scientific evidence that such drugs CAUSE these problems.  I only see internet speculation by gun advocates. 

 

This argument is such an obvious deflection from the promary issue: the extremely efficient and lethal means used to kill many people at once.  You know, those ever more available and ever more deadly guns we love so much.      

[grego]

11 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

@grego for me the question is about causation or correlation. Are the drugs responsible for the violence or where they violent people who took the drugs.

I was wondering that myself.

 

One argument might be that these shootings weren't happening (at this rate) before these drugs became so widespread. 

 

Maybe the drugs are helping otherwise violent people who may have acted out anyway, but does that mean society is more psychologically damaged than we used to be? I don't know. 

[steve09ru]

13 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

@grego for me the question is about causation or correlation. Are the drugs responsible for the violence or where they violent people who took the drugs.

I think it can be both honestly.  You can have people who were violent and took the drugs to live 'normal' but you can also have instances where there's no violent past for an individual who take multiple prescriptions causing and the combination of these drugs cause psychotic episodes

[Predicto]

2 minutes ago, grego said:

I was wondering that myself.

 

One argument might be that these shootings weren't happening (at this rate) before these drugs became so widespread. 

 

Maybe the drugs are helping otherwise violent people who may have acted out anyway, but does that mean society is more psychologically damaged than we used to be? I don't know. 

 

What is see is that these shootings weren't happening at this rate before high capacity weapons grade guns became so widespread.  

[grego]

11 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Exactly.  Anti-depressant and anti-psychotic drugs aren't causing murders.  However, people with mental illnesses usually are placed on such drugs in an effort to control their conditions.  And sometimes the drugs don't work (or don't get taken).  I have yet to see any scientific evidence that such drugs CAUSE these problems.  I only see internet speculation by gun advocates. 

 

This argument is such an obvious deflection from the promary issue: the extremely efficient and lethal means used to kill many people at once.  You know, those ever more available and ever more deadly guns we love so much.      

 

definitely true that this angle can be and is being played up by the gun rights side, but i dont push back so far as to say 'theres no connection between these drugs and violent behavior', in part because i just dont know. but, i do have a hard time believing that someone was prescribed a drug and had a bad reaction to it and acted out violently, where they may not have done so before, just because its a drug, after all, and effects on individuals vary.

 

ok, i just googled an article from a respectable source that seems to confirm this. 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201101/psychiatric-drugs-and-violence-review-fda-data-finds-link

 

Of the 1937 total case reports of violence toward others, there were 387 cases of homicide, 404 physical assaults, 27 cases of physical abuse, 896 reports of homicidal ideation, and 223 cases of "violence related symptoms."

The adverse events reported to the FDA are known to represent but a tiny fraction of all such adverse events. This study simply identified 31 drugs responsible for most of the FDA case reports of violence toward others, with antidepressants near the top of that list. 

In light of this finding, the many past shootings at school campuses and other public venues should perhaps be investigated anew by government officials, with an eye toward ascertaining whether psychotropic use may have, in the manner of an adverse event, triggered that violence.

Moore and his collaborators concluded: "These data provide new evidence that acts of violence towards others are a genuine and serious adverse drug event that is associated with a relatively small group of drugs. Varenicline, which increases the availability of dopamine, and serotonin reuptake inhibitors were the most strongly and consistently implicated drugs."

[bcl05]

I'm a doc, but not a psychiatrist.  Here's my take on the med question.

 

There is a fairly well recognized uptick in the rate of suicide attempts in the immediate weeks after starting antidepressants.  Depression causes many symptoms, including, but not limited to, sadness, hopelessness, apathy, lack of motivation, appetite suppression, sleep disturbance, etc.  For reasons that aren't quite clear, these symptoms do not all respond equally or on the same time scale to typical antidepressants.  Some patients first feel the lack of motivation lifting prior to the sadness and hopelessness.  Many patients with severe depression may be suicidal off treatment but simply can't muster the motivation or energy to do something about it.  If they suddenly become motivated and energetic while still feeling sad and hopeless, there is a window of time that is high risk.  Ultimately, for many patients, all of the symptoms of depression improve with the medications, so the long term effect is to decrease the overall risk of suicide and to improve many general health and wellbeing measures.  But there is a period of time that may be days to weeks that the risk is elevated.  That is why it is important to provide not just a prescription but the other supportive services and counseling so patients can get through those periods safely.  

 

I have no idea if that kind of physiology is playing any role in mass shooters.